Vanderhoven7

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Posts by Vanderhoven7

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  128

  Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

  why don't the jw's do the same?.

  from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

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  Vanderhoven7

  @Sea Breeze

  Where do you find eternal souls in the Bible? The soul can be destroyed in Gehenna (the second death) according to Jesus. This mortal must put on immortality but that happens at the resurrection according to Paul.

  Re: Jude 7

  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
  

  Wonderful verse. Do you see the word or concept of torment here? The fire that destroyed Sodom was eternal. But does "eternal fire" clearly denote either conscious experience, or a continual burning flame which causes endless suffering? Or could "eternal fire" simply be a metaphor for eternal destruction? Interestingly, because something is eternal or everlasting in scripture does not necessitate endless perpetuity of action. For example, Hebrews 6:2 speaks of "Eternal Judgment", not in the sense that the final judgment scene will be reenacted day after day for eternity, but that a final judgment will be made that will have eternal consequences for the wicked.

  - Similarly, rather than denoting an endless process of ongoing torture, could "eternal fire" be descriptive of a destruction which is unending in the sense that it will never be reversed?

  - In other words, could the consequences of the fire be eternal and not the burning process itself?
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  128

  Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

  why don't the jw's do the same?.

  from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @TTWSYF

  "What makes you think that eternal hellfire must be present in the Old Testament? Is it somehow not valid because it’s in the New Testament and not in the Old Testament?"

  Firstly, eternal torment of eternal human souls is not found in the New Testament.

  Of course God could spring eternal torment on the wicked as a surprize punishment anytime He wants.

  However, the Pharisees used both torment after death and eternal torment at the judgment to control the common people. So I want eternal torment supporters to tell me how and when these religious leaders acquired this teaching about the immortality of the soul and endless retributive pain as the penalty for sin....if they didn't get it from the Holy Ghost.

  
  
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  128

  Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

  why don't the jw's do the same?.

  from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @c SeaBreeze

  I asked specifically for eternal torment from the Hebrew scriptures, .i.e., the Old Testament. So how did the rulers in Israel come up with Abraham's Bosom and Torment in Sheol/Hades?

  Interesting that not one of the scriptures you list from the New Testament speaks of eternal torment or eternal pain for human beings. Eternal fire and eternal punishment simply stand for eternal destruction, not eternal existence. Babylon's torment lasts only one hour, but it's smoke ascends forever as a reminder of God's eternal eradication of sin and evil. Hebrews speaks of eternal judgment, not that there will be an ongoing or never-ending court case, but that a judgment will be made with eternal consequences for wicked human beings

  Please supply the actual verses, not just the references that prove eternal torment of the wicked. How about the five most convincing verses to start with.
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  128

  Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

  why don't the jw's do the same?.

  from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @Sea Breeze

  No one has a problem with eternal punishment. The problem is with eternal conscious punishment or eternal punishing. The wages of sin is death, not torment.

  It is not strange that you can only present one verse in the OT to support eternal punishing and yet the word torment is not included.

  On top of that, the word contempt is not what the unrighteous are described as experiencing. It is the righteous who eternally view the wicked with contempt.

  Albert Barnes writes

  "The word "contempt" (דראון derâ'ôn) means, properly, a repulse; and then aversion, abhorrence. The meaning here is aversion or abhorrence - the feeling with which we turn away from what is loathsome, disgusting, or hateful. Then it denotes the state of mind with which we contemplate the vile and the abandoned; and in this respect expresses the emotion with which the wicked will be viewed on the final trial. The word everlasting completes the image, meaning that this feeling of loathing and abhorrence would continue forever. In a subordinate sense this language might be used to denote the feelings with which cowards, ingrates, and apostates are regarded on earth; but it cannot be doubted that it will receive its most perfect fulfillment in the future world - in that aversion with which the lost will be viewed by all holy beings in the world to come."

  So where do you think the religious rulers in Jesus day got the idea that the wicked experience torment after death and eternal torment after final judgment?
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  128

  Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

  why don't the jw's do the same?.

  from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @Sea Breeze

  Where did the religious leaders in Jesus day get torment after death?

  And where did the term Abraham' Bosom originate, if it also not found in the Old Testament?
• 
  128

  Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

  why don't the jw's do the same?.

  from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Rest in Peace

  

  Always speak faith to death,
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  40

  Dates and times

  by jhine in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  last night at my bible study group we looked at 1thessalonians ch 5 .

  we have been working through the whole letter.

  verses 1-11 start with .

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  Vanderhoven7

  1874, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, before the close of the century

  "Given that over the years people have tried to work out a date for the end what is the point of that? "

  The Faithful Slave has always tried to prove Jesus a liar.
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  144

  Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

  from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

  there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

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  Vanderhoven7

  All to conclude that Watchtower and the Faithful Slave are redundant to salvation and/or survival into the new system.

  How to shoot yourself in the foot!
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  7

  Wow! Been a long time...

  by daniel-p in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  wow!

  it's been... lemme check... 8 years since i logged in here!

  (and 18 years since first coming here as i was in the middle of my crisis of conscience) .

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  Vanderhoven7

  Welcome back. Take off your coat; stay a while and share what's been happening with you and yours. 😎
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  3

  The History and Impact of Disfellowshipping and Shunning (Dr. M. James Penton)

  by iloowy.goowy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the history and impact of disfellowshipping and shunning (dr. m. james penton).

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwdv1-apzlc.

  the history and impact of disfellowshipping and shunning: a jehovah's witness inquisition by dr. m. james penton, 2003. recording of a discourse delivered at the " out of the watchtower - into christ" convention of former jehovah's witnesses in england and wales, where he discusses how the watchtower evolved its doctrine on disfellowshipping and shunning by twisting scripture, and the impact this has had on many watchtower victims.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Here is an excellent shorty-short video outlining the so-called difference between Hard and Soft WT shunning practices.

  https://youtube.com/shorts/OKCLfO66MFU?si=I_U-KN6c3kFll19h