Such a major change would be a disappointing blow to the rank and file that I think would result in serious hemorrhaging.
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
-
135
Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting
by slimboyfat insay it ain’t so!
.
in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?
-
-
-
41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
@Aclue
Notice that the sun darkening takes place immediately after the tribulation of AD 70
Of course this is figurative language often associated with apocalyptic literature.
29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN:
Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated. God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer shine for Israel of the flesh.
QUESTION: Can we be justified in stating that the sun, moon and stars are figurative of Judaism and its glories?
WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.
Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon "Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Is.34:4,5 Regarding the destruction of the insignificant nation of Idumea, Isaiah writes: “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll...For my sword shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.”
If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of such an insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt incorporates similar vivid language. “Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt... And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used tobdescribe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel? Acts 32:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64
OF COURSE THIS LANGUAGE CAN AND DOES APPLY TO ISRAEL. Dan.7:13 says: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says: “And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64 Mat.16:28)
-
41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
I believe the Lord Jesus Christ appeared a number of times in Old Testament times. Jehovah appeared in human form to Abraham, to Moses in the burning bush, to Nebuchadnezzar in the fiery furnace, to Samson's parents etc.
The high priest saw Jesus coming in power in Judgment against Jerusalem. Don't forget, in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 Jesus provides answers to more than one question. In Matthew 24:1-35 Jesus deals with His coming (erchomai) in judgment against Jerusalem as predicted in a number of His parables. The disciples were warned not to confuse the two judgments (end of Jerusalem i.e. temple destruction/ with worldwide judgment at the end of the world). He warns the disciples that Jerusalem's judgment would not include the parousia (personal return of Christ) secret or otherwise to rescue them. In contrast, His parousia (second personal coming) at the end of time would not require talk of secret presence, but clear to all worldwide.
The great tribulation however is a one-time,non-repeatable event in hisory; a fairly local event affecting the Jews in and around Jerusalem and leading to their death or dispersion among the nations.Be sure to enjoy Sammy on Matt 24
-
41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
@Vidqun,
" I'll stick to Matthew's version. Jesus' Second Coming is definitely a future event (cf. Matt. 24:29-31)."
Yes, the Parousia is a future event that will affect the whole world rather than just Jerusalem and Judaea. See verses 36 on.
Jesus separated these two judgments carefully. One you could flee from, one you could not, one you should know the exact time, one know one knows, one had many signs, one would be a total surprise, one would be in tumultuous times, one would be in normal times, people carrying on with normal activities, marrying, working in fields, one you would have to run from, one you would be taken from.
-
41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
Yes, Matthew 24 verses 36 to the end deal with the end time parousia which is still future and will affect all of humanity.
Matthew 24:14. AND THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE PREACHED IN ALL THE WORLD FOR A WITNESS UNTO ALL NATIONS; AND THEN SHALL THE END COME.
Was this sign fulfilled before Jerusalem's judgment?
The scripture indicates that prior to 70AD the gospel was spread throughout the world. Acts 2:5 Ro.1:8 Col 1:6, 23
This worldwide spreading of the gospel preceded the end of the Jewish economy and witnessed to it..i.e. that this was the result of the nations rejection of Christ.
(Mt. 24:14 - this Gospel of the Kingdom)
- Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom. (Mt.4:23; Mt.9:35)
MIke, watch Sam's video and let me know what you think.
- Paul also taught the gospel of the kingdom which he clearly equates with the "gospel of grace". Acts 20:24,25
Mike, if you watch Sam's short video above I think you will find JW teaching on Matthew 24 collapses.
-
41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
Sammy deals with some objections... very entertaining but the truth is clear. Matthew 24:1-35 is exclusively about Jerusalem's judgment terminating in 70 A.D.
-
41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
THE GREAT TRIBULATION
The synoptics support that the great tribulation Jesus
spoke about would be an unrepeatable local event.
.
Matthew 24:15-21 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
.
Mark 13:14-19 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
14. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
.
Luke 21:20-24 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the
desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
,
Albert Barnes comments: "Standing in the holy place - Mark says, standing where it ought not,” meaning the same thing. All Jerusalem was esteemed “holy,” Mat_4:5. The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple." it is time to flee Jerusalem.
Very little is ascribed the word holy in the gospels. God, Jesus, the city and it's temple uniquely qualify. God's holy presence in the temple remained until the death of Christ, when the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom (i.e. from above) exposing the fact that God's holy presence was removed and the temple desolate as Jesus ominous prophetic pronouncement indicated. (see Matthew 23:38)This act of God symbolized the permanent removal of God's presence accompanying the nations rejection of their messiah; Israel's greatest loss made this the worst unrepeatable disaster possible for Israel. The complete physical destruction of the holy temple (as a witness to the nations) ratified this divine rejection for the entire world to see for all time... to which the Dome of the Rock and the wailing wall continue to attest.
CONCLUSION: The great tribulation had to be a one-time,non-repeatable event in history; a fairly local event affecting the Jews in and around Jerusalem and leading to their death or dispersion among the nations. Jesus provided the Sign to Flee and escape Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction: Matthew 24: 18-23 The plight of the Jews who didn't heed Jesus' instruction to flee is aptly described in Luke 21: 21-24.People who try to make this a dual fulfillment make Jesus a Master wordsmith speaking literally to his generation and figuratively to ours.
-
21
Do you recognize this?
by Gorb inthinking sometimes about my youth days and the stories my grandfather told me about our jw congregation.
do you recognize that your congregation was full of somehowe strange folks, very low educated, poor and simple?.
the po was an elder with some distance, with some personality acting intelligent and following the rules strict.. there was always a kind of scandal.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
Charlie Ryde was a JW during the 80s. He writes:
When I was a Jehovahs Witness in the 80’s and 90’s we were told we had THE TRUTH.
What was the Truth?
It was the unflinching belief that Armageddon was so close…soooo close… that wasting your time on having children or getting a college education was unwise. Many JWs believed this so much they failed to prepare financially for the future. The Truth sounded great, all you had to do was be a faithful JW for a little while, a few years at best, and you would live a life of immortal perfection on a paradise Earth.
But time marched on, and here we are. The Truth said people living in 1914 would never die, because that’s when Jesus returned and the promise would be fulfilled. Millions then living have most certainly died, so The Truth was changed to make that false prophecy seem okay.
Now the New and Improved TRUTH says the generation that overlapped the generation of 1914 will never die. Too bad some JWs didn’t get a career or have children based on the old Truth, chalk it up to experience.
The good news for the Watchtower is the New and Improved Truth bought them some time. Time they are using wisely to regroup. Recent changes include reorganizing finances so the individual congregations no longer control their own donations.
Nothing bad could come from a centralized government taking complete control of finances right? Of course not, nothing bad ever happened in this situation in the history of mankind.
Now we have the video below. The New and Improved Truth with 10% more Bonus Truth. Personally anyone who doesn’t immediately reject a leader who says what this JW Leader says is not worth associating with in my life, much less a whole room full of these people.
Remember, this man is part of a direct link to god that gets “new light” and alters The Truth as needed
So what’s the next Truth? what level of control are you willing to give in to? Are you comfortable with living a life with only one purpose, to serve the Jehovahs Witnesses?
Many are. Including much of my family. And it has fragmented our families, dividing us into believers and nonbelievers who don’t speak. Just know going into this that that is a distinct possibility.
-
41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
@Rattigan
Was Jesus clean shaven with short hair? What do beards and hair length have to do with truth? Look at message content, not at the superficial.
Compare Steve Gregg's analysis of Revelation with the farcical Revelation Climax At Hand book.
-
41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
@Vidqun
The GT was a non-repeatable event affecting The Jews and Jerusalem.
Luke 21:34 in context.
33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.Note a change in subject in what follows here as seen also in (Matt. 24:36–44; Mark 13:32–37 )34¶And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earthJesus basically was asked 2 questions one about when the temple would come down and then other, about the signs preceding his second coming (parousia) in judgment. Jesus separated these 2 judgments, the first having signs, it's timing to allow believers to flee at the exact moment, it would be localized and that they should pray that their flight would not be hampered by weather conditions etc.
The second coming (parousia) however would not be something one could free from, it would come as a complete surprise, it would be worldwide and no signs would precede it's happening.
Matthew and Mark make this division (Jerusalem vs World judgment) more clearly
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.36¶But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.Be Ready for His Coming
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.