Posts by Vanderhoven7

224

Is the Holy Spirit God Himself or a force like in Star Wars?

by I_love_Jeff in

jw
friends

Vanderhoven7

Hi TS,

Re. The Trinity

My background is IBSA. It took time, but I now see Jesus Christ as my Lord and my God.

However, I was a child of God long before I came to accept the Trinity. One has to know (ginosko) Jesus Christ and the Father through Him to be saved. If one is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, one is not sanctified and one may know many things about Jesus without actually knowing Him.

The Holy Spirit reveals Christ to our inner man (faith is divine revelation); He makes Jesus real to our spirit. All this can happen without great ontological understanding of God's being and nature.

Many people believe the Trinity and don't know and love the Lord Jesus Christ; many others don't believe the Trinity and also do not have the indwelling Spirit of Christ and the witness that they are the children of God and joint heirs with Christ.

Sometimes Christian theology makes salvation more complex than it really is. It takes the applying of the work of Christ to our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

And how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him

224

Is the Holy Spirit God Himself or a force like in Star Wars?

by I_love_Jeff in

jw
friends

Vanderhoven7

Dear SA, I wrote a detailed response, and lost connectivity on an unsecured site....all to say...no problemo. ;o)

224

Is the Holy Spirit God Himself or a force like in Star Wars?

by I_love_Jeff in

jw
friends

Vanderhoven7

Hi TS,

How do you explain:

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Only persons can be saddened.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Only persons have minds/thoughts

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Only persons have wills

Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Only persons express their desires and thoughts vocally

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty

The Lord is a person

224

Is the Holy Spirit God Himself or a force like in Star Wars?

by I_love_Jeff in

jw
friends

Vanderhoven7

Hi Sis,

Thank you for disagreeing so agreeably. :o)

As for the groaning..in context

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;
Rom 8:27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

I would agree with Clarke when he writes:

The Spirit also helpeth our infirmities - The same Spirit, το πνευμα, mentioned before as bearing witness with ours that we are the children of God; and consequently it is not a disposition or frame of mind, for the disposition of our mind surely cannot help the infirmities of our minds.

The word συναντιλαμβανεται is very inadequately expressed by helpeth. It is compounded of συν, together, αντι, against, and λαμβανομαι, to support or help, and signifies such assistance as is afforded by any two persons to each other, who mutually bear the same load or carry it between them. He who prays, receives help from the Spirit of God; but he who prays not receives no such help. Whatever our strength may be, we must put it forth, even while most implicitly depending on the strength of God himself.

For we know not what we should pray for as we ought - And should therefore be liable to endless mistakes in our prayers, if suitable desires were not excited by the Holy Spirit and power received to bring these desires, by prayer, before the throne of grace.

But the Spirit itself - Αυτο το πνευμα, The same Spirit, viz. the Spirit that witnesses of our adoption and sonship, Rom_8:15, Rom_8:16, makes intercession for us. Surely if the apostle had designed to teach us that he meant our own sense and understanding by the Spirit, he never could have spoken in a manner in which plain common sense was never likely to comprehend his meaning. Besides, how can it be said that our own spirit, our filial disposition, bears witness with our own spirit; that our own spirit helps the infirmities of our own spirit; that our own spirit teaches our own spirit that of which it is ignorant; and that our own spirit maketh intercession for our own spirit, with groanings unutterable? This would have been both incongruous and absurd. We must therefore understand these places of that help and influence which the followers of God receive from the Holy Ghost; and consequently, of the fulfillment of the various promises relative to this point which our Lord made to his disciples, particularly in Joh_14:16, Joh_14:17, Joh_14:26; Joh_15:26, Joh_15:27; Joh_16:7; and particularly Joh_16:13, Joh_16:14 : Howbeit, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.

224

Is the Holy Spirit God Himself or a force like in Star Wars?

by I_love_Jeff in

jw
friends

Vanderhoven7

Although we don't always know the mind of the Holy Spirit, He would be grieved if we lie to Him. Thankfully the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered so that we might know the will of the Spirit for our lives.

Mind/intellect, will, emotions = very active force...like 10,000 volts of electricity ;o)

84

Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex in

i am starting this topic to discuss the title.

i know many people on this forums dont believe in the idea of god , and even jw's reject the idea of a fiery hell even though the bible clearly states is.. this video contain testimonies osome people who even considered themselves as atheists until the point of practical death.. i just want to emphasize what one person said in the video at the point of death - " what if god is real, and what if all that which was being said about god was true" .

hope this helps whoever it may.. and one more thing, no matter what you do or how you live your life, just know that even at the point of death, jesus christ is able to save.

Vanderhoven7

Oops, sorry, my error Michelle; you did not associate Hades with eternal habitations. My bad.

84

Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex in

i am starting this topic to discuss the title.

i know many people on this forums dont believe in the idea of god , and even jw's reject the idea of a fiery hell even though the bible clearly states is.. this video contain testimonies osome people who even considered themselves as atheists until the point of practical death.. i just want to emphasize what one person said in the video at the point of death - " what if god is real, and what if all that which was being said about god was true" .

hope this helps whoever it may.. and one more thing, no matter what you do or how you live your life, just know that even at the point of death, jesus christ is able to save.

Vanderhoven7

Hi Michelle,

Re: Jesus used the fraudster as an example for believers to follow in earning heavenly rewards.

<<considering that Jesus was talking about failure NOT victory, and unrighteous mammon NOT true "riches", isn't it in keeping with the general thrust of scripture that Jesus was referencing the everlasting habitation called hell?(luke 16:1-9)>>

Actually Hades is not an everlasting habitation for anyone. It will be emptied of people and then destroyed...along with death. (Rev 20:13,14)

<<since other scriptures spoken by Jesus reference a place of burning torment,(luke 16:24) how can one ignore these scriptural motifs (contained in the words and lessons OF Jesus Christ) without first assuming that something other than what IS stated is the truth?...>>

You must be looking at both the commending of a fraudster story and the account of Lazarus and the rich man as historical narration, rather than "satire". If we look at the literary form as historical narration, then we might wonder why Jesus told these stories...especially the latter, because, except for a twist at the end, the Pharisees told virtually the same story repeatedly to keep the poor in their place.

Why do you think Jesus told these two stories?

Really Jesus told 5 stories consecutively to a mixed audience consisting of his disciples, various respected religious leaders, as well as publicans and sinners. (Luke 15:1) The first 3 parables, the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost/prodigal son, were definitely stories designed to provide comfort for the oppressed common people in the audience who needed to hear that God was seeking them and rejoicing over their movement toward repentance. The remaining 2 stories on the other hand, did not bring comfort to anybody. Who do you think they were designed to bring discomfort to? If you say the Pharisees; why should these 2 account bring discomfort to them? How do they (the Pharisees) fit into these narrations?

Vander

84

Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex in

i am starting this topic to discuss the title.

i know many people on this forums dont believe in the idea of god , and even jw's reject the idea of a fiery hell even though the bible clearly states is.. this video contain testimonies osome people who even considered themselves as atheists until the point of practical death.. i just want to emphasize what one person said in the video at the point of death - " what if god is real, and what if all that which was being said about god was true" .

hope this helps whoever it may.. and one more thing, no matter what you do or how you live your life, just know that even at the point of death, jesus christ is able to save.

Vanderhoven7

Hope you are enjoying your coffee and computer time at the cafe' Bioflex....or did your server manage to get up and running again?

84

Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex in

i am starting this topic to discuss the title.

i know many people on this forums dont believe in the idea of god , and even jw's reject the idea of a fiery hell even though the bible clearly states is.. this video contain testimonies osome people who even considered themselves as atheists until the point of practical death.. i just want to emphasize what one person said in the video at the point of death - " what if god is real, and what if all that which was being said about god was true" .

hope this helps whoever it may.. and one more thing, no matter what you do or how you live your life, just know that even at the point of death, jesus christ is able to save.

Vanderhoven7

Bioflex,

<<Sorry 4 the late reply, my internet is down, and i have to go to the cafe each

No problem. Try paying your bills once in a while Fella. ;)

Re: Other things we all can conclude without adding ideas to the text

<<From this text we can asume that the rich man in Lazarus's case was being tormented not because he was rich but rather because he negleted his fellow man to suffer even though he had more than enough to spare.>>

Plenty of Atheists give to the poor Bio. Btw, shouldn't you be giving the money you spend on internet and cable tv to the poor to assure you have a spot in Abraham's Bosom?

I see you like playing "Sherlock Hemlock" with this passage. You really have no idea how much the rich man gave to charitable causes. Nor do you know how much he gave to Lazarus. Perhaps he gave much and often and that's why those who laid him at the rich man's gate daily continued to bring him. Let's not assume anything about the rich man's character...or about Lazarus' character or the reasons for their post-death situations, other than what the text reveals. (See verse 25)

Why do you think Jesus preached (Hades) Hell-fire to the Hell Fire preachers of His day? Was He trying to help them get their message across?

<<You might want to look into the scriptures, and see how many times Jesus spoke about the end and punishment, most of them were not directed to the pharisees. >>

You did not answer the question Bio.

<<Like i said, their beliefs mostly went contrary to the things Jesus taught, concerning issues of the ressurection, and the afterlife too. I am not famiar with their belief of eternal torment but one thing was clear, they did not even abide by their own laws and teachings.>>

Eternal torment was not derived from scripture, but from Babylonian and Greek mythology and adopted by certain religious factions within Judaism and promoted especially during the intertestamental period.

Re: "the commendable fraud artist"

<<I thought this passage was obvious, no? If you read the whole of Luke 16, Jesus talks of one man not being able to serve two masters equally. In the passage a fraudster is considersed wise by his fraudulent master because they share the same qualities.>>

More assumption Bio. Jesus didn't have anything to say about the steward's character. However, even fraudsters usually don't commend those that defraud them.

<<Do you think a desent master would have commemded the fraudster?>>

Note that Jesus used the fraudster as an example for believers to follow in earning heavenly rewards. Think about it.

Vander

P.S. Again, let's look at the other scriptures, one passage at a time, once we deal fully with the passage at hand...to be sure we are not letting assumptions pass for truth.

84

Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex in

i am starting this topic to discuss the title.

i know many people on this forums dont believe in the idea of god , and even jw's reject the idea of a fiery hell even though the bible clearly states is.. this video contain testimonies osome people who even considered themselves as atheists until the point of practical death.. i just want to emphasize what one person said in the video at the point of death - " what if god is real, and what if all that which was being said about god was true" .

hope this helps whoever it may.. and one more thing, no matter what you do or how you live your life, just know that even at the point of death, jesus christ is able to save.

Vanderhoven7

Well, seems like this thread is just about dead.

For anyone interested in reading an essay I did in collaboration with another IBSA member, on the subject of The Rich Man and Lazarus, try

Vander