Posts by Vanderhoven7

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Vanderhoven7

Hi Riley,

I agree.

LOOKING AT THE NUMBER 144,000 :

How is God to numerically express the entire church down through history? When you apply Christ's mustard seed analogy to the "Kingdom of Heaven", and the promise to Abraham of an innumerable progeny, wouldn't you be dealing with a sizable group? How is God to give a definite total for such an innumerable multitude? Why couldn't it be by a number which no man could number,- ie. by a symbol- which stands for completion and perfect symmetry?

David Chilton, in his commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" says:

The number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness." (p.206)

IS THERE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THAT THE 144,000 AND THE "GREAT MULTITUDE" ARE IDENTICAL?

John's Literary Device in Revelation: Hearing & then Seeing

There is support for the idea that the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd" are really the same group being described from two different perspectives, divine and human. John heard the (perfect) number; then he saw the actual group. This "hearing" then "seeing" sequencing is a literary device that Saint John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images from different viewpoints. David Chilton clearly demonstrates this pattern of hearing and seeing in :”Days of Vengeance:”

For example, in 1:10-13, St. John hears a Voice, then turns

to see the Lord; in 5:5-6, he hears the Lion of Judah, then

sees the Lamb; in 6:1-8, he hears a living creature say "Come!"

- then sees the object of the creatures command. The same

pattern appears in this chapter: St. John tells us, I heard the

number of those who were sealed (v.4); then, after these things

- after hearing the number of the redeemed - I looked, and behold

a Great Multitude (v.9).

Both the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd") consist of members who are:

144,000 /CROWD

a. From every kindred and nation. 5:9 /7:9

b. Servants of God. 7:3 /7:15

c. Divinely protected thru tribulation 9:4,5 /Acts 14:22 7:14

d. followers of the Lamb 14:4 /7:17

e. Redeemed 14:3 /7:14

f. Pure and Spotless 14:4 /7:13,14

g. Standing before the throne 14:1,3 / 7:9

h. Before the Lamb 5:8 /7:9

i. In His temple (naos) 11:1,2 /7:15; 11:19

j. Tenting/residing with God 2Cor.6:16 / 7:15

i. Dressed in white robes 6:11/ 7:9

j. Wearing robes that are washed 22:14 /7:14

h. A heavenly class 14:1; 4:1,2; / 19:1

i. Spirit begotten 7:3 / I Jn. 5:1

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Vanderhoven7

Hi GB,

"I can't give you such scriptures because, there are no such scriptures."

Well thank you for trying. But since you can't show me scripture, you do exactly what I asked you not to do. You give me human reasoning and then quote scripture that does not support your reasoning.

<<Not everyone will go to heaven to rule with Jesus but the exact number of 144000 who are the bride of Christ>>.

Scripture please.

You talk about the Great Crowd being support for your beliefs. So list the scriptures that tell us members of the Great Crowd are not born again, not indwelt by the Spirit, not declared righteous, not part of the New Covenant, not eligible to partake of the emblems of Christ death, bereft of a heavenly hope and a heavenly Mediator?

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Vanderhoven7

GB.

You are good a listing bunches of scriptures without comment.

So here is your challenge... and a challenge to any Jehovah's Witness on this forum:

Just like Boogerman above, without human reasoning, just the scriptures, none of your words or thoughts or reasonings are needed or wanted.

List the scriptures that tell us there are Christians living today who are not born again, not indwelt by the Spirit, not declared righteous, not part of the New Covenant, not eligible to partake of the emblems of Christ death, bereft of a heavenly hope and a heavenly Mediator?

SCRIPTURES ONLY THANK YOU!!!!

35

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.

.

others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..

Vanderhoven7

Hi TBK

What are we saved from?

Short answer- lostness (Jesus came to seek and to save the lost...like in the prodigal son story)

Long answer - scripturally speaking:

a. The Greek scriptures talk about salvation in three tenses, past, present and future. Past and present salvation is identified by the term “justification” All Christian believers were and are justified.

Acts 13:39 KJV — And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 5:1 KJV — Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 6:11 KJV — And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

b. Those who are justified have been saved or delivered from the future wrath, from power of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of Christ..

Romans 5:9 KJV — Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 KJV — And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Colossians 1:13 KJV — Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (note: Christ's kingdom existed in century one.)

c. Being saved or justified means we have been saved or redeemed by his blood which involves the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 3:24 KJV — Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 1:14 KJV — In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 2:13 KJV — And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

d. Being saved or justified is a grace gift of God, based on the believers ongoing faith in Christ's death and resurrection (not in an organization or a religion)

1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV — (the good News) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV — For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Ephesians 2:8 KJV — For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Timothy 1:9 KJV — Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5 KJV — Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

e. Not only does justification mean that the believers sins are forgiven, but on the positive side, that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to all believers.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 3:21-26 21 But now God has shown us His righteousness; the law and the prophets tell us about it...God's righteousness comes to all who believe, just by their believing in Jesus Christ. There is no distinction. All have sinned and are without God's glory. They become righteous by a gift of His love, by the ransom Christ Jesus paid to free them. God set Him up publicly to pour out His blood before God to take away sin through faith, to show His righteousness...Now He wanted to show His righteousness, to be righteous Himself and make righteous anyone who believes in Jesus. (Beck)

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:23-25 Now it was not written for his (Abraham's) sake alone, that it (righteousness) was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

35

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.

.

others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..

Vanderhoven7

The Faithful Slave reminds me of the false brethren from James making salvation dependent on circumcision. (Galatians 2) Unless you believe and follow the law you cannot be saved. Unless you believe and follow the appointed Slave and his dictates you will be destroyed. Faith in Jesus doesn't matter without the Slave.

31

WHEN is the Kingdom of God coming?

by Fisherman in

when is the kingdom of god coming?.

on being asked by the pharisees when the kingdom of god was coming, he answered them: “the kingdom of god is not coming with paratherisis; 21 nor will people say, ‘see here!’ or, ‘there!’ for look!

the kingdom of god is in your midst.” —lu 17:20,21. .

Vanderhoven7

Hey, there were 88 proofs that Christ returned in 1874. You couldn't be a consecrated Christian if you didn't believe that Jesus returned in that year or if you didn't believe that Pastor Russell was the Faithful Slave.

The Watchtower organization had it all figured out. Now, it's October 1914. This time they have it right and if you don't believe it, you will be destroyed at Armageddon. Why? Because if you don't believe in 1914, you don't believe in in 1918 when Jesus rejected all the churches of Christendom and you don't believe in 1919 when Jesus appointed Rutherford and the WTS directors as his Faithful Slave. It's all in the Bible. Now those directors, who never knew they were so appointed, passed on this appointment, i.e., the ability to interpret the scriptures accurately, to all subsequent anointed Governing Body members.

All these Bible facts you must believe or you will be destroyed during the tribulation or at Armageddon for disbelieving in the Faithful Slave. Believe in the Faithful Slave. Come to Jehovah's Organization for salvation. If you don't believe in the Faithful Slave you cannot be a Christian, you cannot believe in God accurately enough, you cannot know Jehovah or His son, Jesus.

Obey the Faithful and Discreet Slave as you would the voice of God. -Watchtower, June 15, 1957

To have Jehovah's approval, we need to obey the faithful and discreet slave. -Watchtower (Simplified) Study Edition, July 15, 2011, page 27

New Light, New Light!

by BoogerMan in

more accurately known as a reversal of a long held 'truth.'.

september 2022 study watchtower - par.

14 p. 18 - "in the past, we understood jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things.

Vanderhoven7

The take on the new light seems to be,....your death still pays for your sins committed in this life, but you will have a lot of apologizing to do in the new system. David will have to apologize to Uriah for example. But it looks like Canada and Trudeau may be absolved from this having already apologized for everything except breathing.

I'll have to read the whole article

35

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.

.

others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..

Vanderhoven7

According to Jehovah's Witnesses teachings, who will be saved?

Heige Fauskanger writes:

Well, it’s a bit … complicated.

Ultimately, just who will be “saved” and gain eternal life supposedly normally won’t be decided before some point more than 1,000 years into the future! Yes, CE 3022 at the very earliest. Probably even later.

In Watchtower teachings, the current world order is about to be wiped out in Armageddon, God’s great war, and replaced by an earthly paradise where people will be frolicking with pandas and pet lions/tigers for a full millennium. Like this:

But — simply getting to live in the earthly paradise isn’t enough to secure permanent “salvation”, just a sort of necessary Step One. In Paradise, people will apparently finally learn the 100 % correct interpretation of the Bible (currently the Witnesses are still refining their doctrine after 140 years, so this is clearly a complicated matter), and the Paradisians will be raised to human perfection, physically and mentally.

But just reaching perfection isn’t the ultimate salvation, either. You must also make it through Step Two at the end of the 1,000-year program. Satan, who has been bound in the meantime, will be released by God and allowed to tempt the entire human race as it then exists to rebel against God. But this is really God’s way of weeding out the unworthy ones, who will then be eradicated forever, along with Satan himself. (Apparently Satan should stall his own execution by refusing to tempt anyone when he is released, thus derailing God’s plan, but the infinitely cunning Prince of Evil will somehow be too dumb to realize this. Doesn’t he read Watchtower literature, where everything is predicted in plain words, more than 1K years in advance?)

If you got through this Step Two alive, you are as “saved” as you will ever be in this religion, and you can potentially live on forever. (But of course, God will still eradicate you from the universe at once if you ever misbehave according to his standards, so don’t get any clever ideas.)

However, to even get to Step One you must first make it into the coming earthly paradise itself. Here there are essentially two options.

Be dead (in time). This is by far the easiest option. Watchtower teaches that once someone dies, their death pays for their sins and they are normally in line for resurrection on the paradise earth. There are some exceptions who just stay dead forever, such as those who have “sinned against the holy spirit”, but nobody seems quite certain what that even means, so don’t worry about it. Witnesses typically assure people that they can meet their loved dead ones again in Paradise, the doorknockers never inquring about the moral status of these dead individuals, much less about their interest (or likely lack of such) in the Watchtower message. If you are simply dead before God brings Armageddon to wipe out this world order and make room for the ensuing paradise, you can pretty much count on a resurrection into said paradise (with no conscious existence in the meantime). Deliberate suicide may be a risky strategy, since Jehovah doesn’t like that, but unhealthy living typically shouldn’t be a problem. Smoke, drink, do hard drugs, enjoy your colesterol, don’t let the red light bother you — you’ll wake up in paradise before you know it!
Be a Jehovah’s Witness (in good standing and with no serious hidden sins). This is the second, and far more demanding option if you want to make it through Armageddon into paradise alive. You must obey an elaborate set of rules that would make the Pharisees proud, hawk Watchtower literature, live by Puritan morals and promptly revise your religious views whenever the Watchtower Governing Body think it will be fun to tinker with the doctrines again. Salvationwise, this strategy has the perk that you may attain eternal life without ever dying at all, but since in this religion death is just unconsciousness, skipping Armageddon in favor of a dirt nap may arguably be the better scenario. If you are alive and a Jehovah’s Witness when Armageddon strikes, you are supposed to stand there cheering and happy as the world burns around you, God wiping out some seven billion people for … not being Jehovah’s Witnesses, essentially. And they won’t ever get a resurrection, either! Too bad they didn’t step in front of a bus in time.

The world is burning and billions are dying. YAY! The happiest day of our lives!

This, more or less, is how you get saved, Watchtower fashion.

35

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.

.

others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..

Vanderhoven7

I know who won't be saved according to Witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at Armageddon who is not a Jehovah’s Witness.

Others who are permanently lost include Adam and Eve, those who died in the flood, people of Sodom and Gomorrah and Apostates to their one true religion.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Vanderhoven7

One cannot legitimately have a relationship with an angel. That is spiritism. That is why Jehovah's Witnesses can't legitimately say they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ where they talk to Him or call on Him or fellowship with Him or share their burdens with Him... let alone worship Him. He does not even mediate for them ...only for the small remnant anointed.

As I have said before, there is something terribly wrong when it is not legitimate to say, "Thank you my Saviour for dying for me!"