Blood question re: sample for testing

by carla in

why can jw's give blood samples for testing in a medical setting?

i was with someone once (non jw related) who was getting multiple tests done and they must have taken a good pint all together in separate vials.

how do jw's square this with their blood policies?

Vanderhoven7

Yes, but it is stored for a time so it can be tested... but isn't that against Jehovah of the Watchtower's will? And how can using blood products derived from immorally stored blood be acceptable?

23

How did it come to this?

by New day in

i am now in my early 60’s.

i was baptized in 1980. i served as a ministerial servant and an elder.

i gave my all for many years but about eight years ago i started to question many things.

Sad to hear that you spent over 30 years serving an unworthy religious organization. Glad you came to realize the truth about "the truth" about 8 years ago... just about the time you discovered this forum. And thank God you have been able to protect your family from similar discouragement and pain.

That's what my Dad did for me as well.

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

Vanderhoven7

607 BCE is inaccurate according to ....

"Archaeological evidence that exists to show that the destruction of Jerusalem was in 587 B.C. is the same evidence that the Society uses to prove 539 B.C. was the destruction of Babylon.

Furthermore, the claim that 587 conflicts with Bible prophecy is not a relevant argument, as there are historically acceptable ways to reconcile the prophecy, as shown later.

Not surprisingly, since the Watchtower relies on historical evidence to prove when Babylon fell, information presented in the Watchtower's own journals can be used to show that 607 B.C. is wrong.

Simple calculation

Following is a simple calculation of when Jerusalem fell, taken solely from Watchtower literature. In viewing the calculation remember that everything goes backwards when calculating years B.C.

Babylon fell	"Babylon fell in 539 B.C." Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184	539 B.C.
Plus Nabonidus	"On the basis of cuneiform texts he is believed to have ruled some seventeen years(556-539 B.C.E.)." Aid to Bible Understanding - Nabonidus p.1195	17 years
Plus Labashi-Marduk	"Labashi-Marduk ... was a vicious boy, and within nine months he had his throat cut by an assassin." Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184	1 year
Plus Neriglissar	Neriglissar ... reigned four years Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184	4 years
Plus Evil-Merodach	"After reigning but two years King Evil-Merodach was murdered" Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184	2 years
Plus Nebuchadnezzar	"Nebuchadnezzar ruled as king for 43 years" Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p.480	43 years
Equals start of Nebuchadnezzar's reign	Calculated by adding above figures	606 B.C.
Minus Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year	2 Kings 25:8-9 "And in the ... nineteenth year of King Neb·u·chad·nez´zar ... the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah"	19th year
Date for Destruction	Therefore calculated as:	587 B.C.

75

Is the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses REALLY the "faithful and discreet slave" of Matt. 24:45-47?

by Roger Kirkpatrick in

thesis: when someone who is given a responsibility mistakes that responsibility for authority, bullying is very likely to occur.. jesus spoke an illustration recorded at matthew 24: 45-51 which well illustrates this thesis.. jesus asked, “who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over all his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so.

truly i say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings.

Vanderhoven7

Here are a couple I found

JWs are not following the Bible; they are following men.

Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. 9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

Contradiction Anyone?

"Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same?" Watchtower 2009 Feb 15 p.27

"The plain truth is that we cannot say that we trust in Jehovah if we do not trust in his earthly representatives - those whom Jehovah trusts. Today Jehovah leads the earthly part of his organization by means of "the faithful and discreet slave." The "Watchtower 2022 Feb p.4

"There are many reasons to have complete trust in the slave class. First and foremost, Jesus has appointed them over all his precious "belongings." This is a clear indication that he has complete trust in them." Organized to Do Jehovah's Will (2005) p.18

The truth is that JW’s faith is in men for their salvation…not the Bible. You see the Bible has lost any corrective power for Jehovah's Witnesses. The 10 men in New York can correct their understanding of what the Bible teaches…but the Bible cannot correct them contrary to what these men teach.

75

Is the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses REALLY the "faithful and discreet slave" of Matt. 24:45-47?

by Roger Kirkpatrick in

thesis: when someone who is given a responsibility mistakes that responsibility for authority, bullying is very likely to occur.. jesus spoke an illustration recorded at matthew 24: 45-51 which well illustrates this thesis.. jesus asked, “who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over all his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so.

truly i say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings.

Vanderhoven7

I'm looking for a recent WT quotation that says

Trust in the FS is essential to Salvation

And another that says if we don't trust the slave we are not trusting Jehovah

Anyone???

18

Does Jehovah have a visible organization?

by Vanderhoven7 in

why do jehovah’s witnesses say they are god’s organization so matter of factly as though such an audacious claim is an undisputable fact?

here is how one person sees this claim.. "the entire jehovah’s witness religion is founded on unsubstantiated hubristic claims which are continually repeated until they are assumed by adherents to be a proven fact.. never is this more evident than when the beliefs of a jehovah’s witness are successfully challenged.

the more compelling the evidence against them, the more they resort to repeating their convictions with a sense of insistence, as if they are chanting a mantra.. confirmation bias is prevalent in all religious ideologies, but particularly with jehovah’s witnesses.

Vanderhoven7

@LongHairGal

Yes, in 1967 there was not enough time left in this old system to develop a career. I graduated from high-school in 1968. A fellow graduate told me there would not be time to go to university and that I would be destroyed if I did not become a JW by 1975. I told him he would wake up in 1976 with egg all over his face.

18

Does Jehovah have a visible organization?

by Vanderhoven7 in

why do jehovah’s witnesses say they are god’s organization so matter of factly as though such an audacious claim is an undisputable fact?

here is how one person sees this claim.. "the entire jehovah’s witness religion is founded on unsubstantiated hubristic claims which are continually repeated until they are assumed by adherents to be a proven fact.. never is this more evident than when the beliefs of a jehovah’s witness are successfully challenged.

the more compelling the evidence against them, the more they resort to repeating their convictions with a sense of insistence, as if they are chanting a mantra.. confirmation bias is prevalent in all religious ideologies, but particularly with jehovah’s witnesses.

Vanderhoven7

@ Watcher

Does Jehovah need and use only one organization to feed and house the poor and distressed?

US Branch of Jehovah’s Witnesses provides little support to ”Distressed Households”

by Jason Wynne Feb 16

World Headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses, Warwick, New York The United States Branch of Jehovah's Witnesses has released a 7-page document to elders in the U.S. entitled, Resources for Distressed Households. Instead of providing practical support to members in need, they provide links to government aid agencies and other charities to find that support.

18

Does Jehovah have a visible organization?

by Vanderhoven7 in

why do jehovah’s witnesses say they are god’s organization so matter of factly as though such an audacious claim is an undisputable fact?

here is how one person sees this claim.. "the entire jehovah’s witness religion is founded on unsubstantiated hubristic claims which are continually repeated until they are assumed by adherents to be a proven fact.. never is this more evident than when the beliefs of a jehovah’s witness are successfully challenged.

the more compelling the evidence against them, the more they resort to repeating their convictions with a sense of insistence, as if they are chanting a mantra.. confirmation bias is prevalent in all religious ideologies, but particularly with jehovah’s witnesses.

Vanderhoven7

Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses say they are God’s organization so matter of factly as though such an audacious claim is an undisputable fact?

Here is how one person sees this claim.

"The entire Jehovah’s Witness religion is founded on unsubstantiated hubristic claims which are continually repeated until they are assumed by adherents to be a proven fact.

Never is this more evident than when the beliefs of a Jehovah’s Witness are successfully challenged. The more compelling the evidence against them, the more they resort to repeating their convictions with a sense of insistence, as if they are chanting a mantra.

Confirmation bias is prevalent in all religious ideologies, but particularly with Jehovah’s Witnesses. The reason for this is that their evangelical work puts them in contact with many rival belief systems.

In order to overcome challenges to their beliefs and to prevent any doubts creeping in, Jehovah’s Witnesses have to retreat to their echo chamber to bolster their faith.

By repeatedly discussing their beliefs with fellow believers, they convince themselves that what they teach is the only ‘truth’. As well as supporting their own need for certainty, they in turn are helping to reinforce the delusions of other members.

There is a very interesting logical fallacy which highlights this method of confirmation which Jehovah’s Witnesses use, called ‘proof by repeated assertion’.

Here is a brief description:-

“Proof by repeated assertion is an informal fallacy in which a proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction and refutation. The proposition can sometimes be repeated until any challenges or opposition ceases, letting the proponent assert it as fact, and solely due to a lack of challengers. In other cases, it’s repetition may be cited as evidence of its truth, in a variant of the appeal to authority fallacy.

…In its extreme form, it can also be a form of brainwashing.”

At their meetings, Jehovah’s Witnesses are trained by role playing, acting out the arguments they regularly encounter in their ministry. However, they only ever consider the scenarios which present the softest resistance to their beliefs.

By constantly ‘overcoming’ the more easy arguments during practice sessions, Jehovah’s Witnesses are lulled into a false sense of security, believing that they have watertight answers to all the questions and objections they can expect to encounter in their ministry.

However, in real life JWs are occasionally confronted with much more profound and difficult challenges to their faith which they have not previously encountered. They invariably refrain from directly arguing or debating on these topics, but instead use deflection tactics such as referring the questioner to their website, and then they quickly retreat.

Later, when no longer under direct pressure, JWs are likely to replay the difficult challenge over in their mind. If there are no set answers in the Watchtower literature, they are compelled to fabricate a refutation themselves, perhaps by looking for relevant bible verses. The motive for this is often more to reassure themselves than to answer the challenger.

But many times there is no valid refutation. A frequent recourse if they can't find a gratifying way to refute the objection to their religion, is to vilify the character of the challenger, as a means to negate the challenge.

They are then compelled to use flawed logic to find a ‘solution’ to the challenge. Once they have an idea, they cling to it and repeat it, however false or illogical it is, until it becomes an ‘established’ counter argument (at least in their minds).

A classic, often repeated example is as follows. After pointing out a flaw in the Organisation they will reply by saying:-

“Show me an alternative religion that has more truth than ours”.

If their adversary fails or declines to suggest an appropriate alternative religion, the JW erroneously concludes that this is decisive evidence that theirs is the true religion by default.

Many people who have had encounters with Jehovah’s Witnesses will recognise this trait. Very often, when Jehovah’s Witness are confronted with contrary evidence, they simply repeat an invalid point over and over, even though they have been presented with well-founded objections or incontrovertible evidence.

After several such encounters, Jehovah’s Witnesses begin to have misplaced confidence in their false reasoning, which leads them to the absurd conclusion that their religion is the only one God is backing.

The Watchtower literature is also a factor which builds confidence in JWs that their religion is God’s organisation. The articles repeatedly make the hubristic claim that they are God’s ‘channel’, that God is using the ‘Faithful Slave’ to convey his message, etc.

Despite the lack of sufficient evidence, the constant repetition of these claims forms a confirmation bias in the minds of the followers, and these invalid assumptions become an established fact.

One only has to read the posts of many JWs on Quora to see this process in motion. There are countless answers from JW apologists in which they claim to be God’s people.

Remaining in an environment where this predominant attitude is constantly played out, has convinced millions of followers that their religion is God’s organisation, even though they lack sufficient evidence to back up this baseless claim."

Giles Gray

61

Why are so many Jehovah’s Witnesses Angry and Rude?

by Vanderhoven7 in

why do you think many jws are hostile and rude?

or is that just my imagination?.

mark jones writes: the vast majority of jehovah’s witnesses are nice people.

Vanderhoven7

Peaceful Pete,

Thanks for living up to your handle and expressing your concern for Witnesses coming to this site. As Christians, If we do not share the truth in love or out of love for Jehovah’s Witnesses and others we fail to glorify God.

28

Bait and Switch "Bible studies"

by Vanderhoven7 in

mark jones, a witness for over 30 years describes what jws call bible studies offered to the public.. .

"they (jehovah's witnesses) offer you a free home “bible” study - which turns out to be a study of a watchtower publication with the bible brought out as an afterthought to try and prop up whatever current idea the governing body are claiming is “the truth” this week.. i think it’s underhanded.. when my parents became jehovah’s witnesses and they offered people a free home “bible” study, this is what they brought to study with them:.

what, did you think they were going to study the bible with you?.

Vanderhoven7

Mark Jones, a Witness for over 30 years describes what JWs call Bible studies offered to the public.

"They (Jehovah's Witnesses) offer you a free home “bible” study - which turns out to be a study of a Watchtower publication with the bible brought out as an afterthought to try and prop up whatever current idea the governing body are claiming is “the truth” this week.

I think it’s underhanded.

When my parents became Jehovah’s Witnesses and they offered people a free home “bible” study, this is what they brought to study with them:

No longer in print or referred to, because the predictions and claims in it failed. The people who were duped into studying it and becoming Jehovah’s Witnesses and promised that they’d live forever in paradise on earth - died.

When I was a Jehovah’s Witness and the offered people a free home “bible” study, this is what we brought to study with them:

No longer in print or referred to, because the claims in it turned out to be false even by Jehovah’s Witness standards. So it should have been called “What did the bible really teach from 2007–2016?”

Today, when Jehovah’s Witness offer people a free home “bible” study, this is what they bring to study with them:

What, did you think they were going to study the bible with you?

Hahahahahahaha - no.

Go ahead and ask them for a bible study and make clear that you’ll only use the bible and no magazines. They might agree at first (might)… but when its made clear during the first study that you wont use their literature they’ll end the study with you. One reason being, 99% of Jehovah’s Witnesses dont even know what they’re supposed to believe anymore and have never actually read a real bible in context.

The “bible” will be brought out every now and then, you’ll be told to jump around to different scriptures out of context to make it look like the magazine or book is correct and if you dont agree with their leader’s interpretation of scripture you’ll be regarded as “not honest hearted” or “insincere for the truth”.

You’ll also notice that the “bible” they use isn't even called a bible. For legal reasons it’s called “The New World Translation of The Holy Scriptures”. Have a look who was on the translation committee… oh, no, you cant. Because non of them are in any way educated in biblical languages, history or theology.

It’s impossible to be baptized as a Jehovah’s Witness by actually studying the bible and the bible alone.

They dont allow it. No, you have to study what the leaders are saying is true this week via their literature (subject to change) and change your mind as to what is “the truth” when they tell you to.

You know, like a cult.I

Vanderhoven7

Posts by Vanderhoven7

Simple calculation