Posts by Vanderhoven7

69

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman in

take for example revelation 21: 10. .

“….and he showed me the holy city jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god.

here john sees something happening, action.

Vanderhoven7

30. AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF
MAN IN HEAVEN: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES
OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON
OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH
POWER AND GREAT GLORY. (See Jer.21:5 Is.19:1)

Note that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the Son
of man visiting the earth. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign
or precursor to His coming to destroy was found in the fulfillment
of these predicted calamities and finally the surrounding of
Jerusalem by the Roman armies. Of course as these calamities and
ultimate destruction, befell them, the tribes would mourn. The
Jews were eventually left without temple, city, sacrifice or
priesthood as was prophesied by Daniel.

Mat 24:30 -

Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man - The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ’s power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By της γης, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.

AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN
THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT
GLORY.

Does the phrase "coming (ἔρχομαι erchomai, not parousia) in the clouds"

necessarily refer to a personal coming to earth? We should not
read that thought into the text. Is. 19:1 states "See the Lord rides
on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt
shall be moved at His presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in
the midst of it" Although this verse speaks of the Lord riding on a
cloud and of His presence, we know that the Egyptians did not see
the Lord in a personal and visible way. The expression is rather
used to indicate a coming in judgment against Egypt. Jesus
coming in the clouds against Israel thus refers to a similar kind of
judgment.

The clouds of heaven obscure or shut heaven from man's view.
They were to see the Lord Jesus coming to judgment with power.
This power was manifest in the destruction. The word glory refers
to the visible display of his honor, power and majesty.

That Jesus destroyed the city in 70 AD is accurate. As Daniel 9:27
reveals; because of the over spreading of abominations, he, the
Lord and Messiah himself would make it desolate (Titus
merely being his instrument.) Confirmation is found in Jesus'exclusion parables.

Mt.21: 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh (ἔρχομαι erchomai), what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. See also Lu.20:15,16

The timing on this is relevant this coming in vengeance, would climax the tribulation and occur in the lifespan of Christ's own generation.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming (ἔρχομαι erchomai) in his kingdom. (Mt.10:23 Lu.9:27)
Finally, in the often-overlooked trial scene in 26:64, Jesus says to the high priest that “from now on you will see the son of man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” The key phrase in that last passage is “from now on”, which is about as close as Matthew comes to the outright investment of glory which John gives to the cross when he attests Jesus as saying things like “Now the son of man is glorified”, “Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out”, and “When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself” (John 12:31, 32; 13:31). The conviction which both Matthew and John unambiguously express is that the exaltation of the son of man would be seen not merely at the end of history but also in the matrix of events unfolding from his messianic work in the middle of history.

31. AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT
SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER
TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM
ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. Is.27:13 Mi.1:1-3

The trumpet represents a proclamation. In this case it is the
gospel. The term angelos is frequently used in the New Testament
to refer to earthly messengers (i.e. the followers of Christ)
Lu.7:24, 9:32, Mk.1:2 II Cor. 8:33 They carry the gospel
message and gather the elect into the kingdom throughout the
earth (from one end of heaven to the other).

33. SO LIKEWISE YE, WHEN YE SHALL SEE THESE
THINGS, KNOW THAT IT IS NEAR, EVEN AT THE DOORS.

Mt.23:36
The Christians Christ addressed were to KNOW the time of
Jerusalem's destruction; so they could take immediate flight to the
mountains. They knew that the Abomination of desolation
referred to the surrounding gentile armies that would make
Jerusalem a desolation (compare Mat.24: 15, 16 with Luke 21:21-
24). That was the cue/sign. And that is why no Christian perished
in the destruction!

69

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman in

take for example revelation 21: 10. .

“….and he showed me the holy city jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god.

here john sees something happening, action.

Vanderhoven7

29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON
NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL
FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
SHALL BE SHAKEN:

Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the
tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The
Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated.
God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from
His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the
Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer
shine for Israel of the flesh.

WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of
Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.

Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon
"Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
to shine.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of such an
insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such
language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of
Israel?

Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
incorporates similar vivid language.
"Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of
Egypt...
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I
will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a
cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright
lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness
upon thy land, saith the Lord God.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Acts 2:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64

Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64
Mat.16:28)

The Jesus we see in the Gospels, and especially in Matthew’s own account, regularly envisaged events of judgment and vindication which were to come about in the generation to which he was sent. The cross, the resurrection and ascension, and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 were all such events. Jesus invested these events with a cosmic and theological significance beyond what would have been readily obvious to a casual bystander

69

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman in

take for example revelation 21: 10. .

“….and he showed me the holy city jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god.

here john sees something happening, action.

Vanderhoven7

Yes, great music. Judging from these, you will enjoy

https://youtu.be/xrYP2QqQ5wo

And as a hopeless romantic, you might like "AT Last"

https://youtu.be/tYDBEONiFcQ

69

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman in

take for example revelation 21: 10. .

“….and he showed me the holy city jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god.

here john sees something happening, action.

Vanderhoven7

Here the closest I can come to celebrating his coronation with the redeemed.

https://youtu.be/GKOVqFcdEgU

33

At what point, does one become apostate to the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 in

at what point does a jehovah’s witness cease to be a jehovah’s witness?

what if a witness doesn't believe some of the official teachings of the governing body but remains silent on these subjects to avoid being disfellowshipped?

is he or she an apostate to the faith?

Vanderhoven7

"Just reporting, not supporting ", is a great turn of phrase.

33

At what point, does one become apostate to the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 in

at what point does a jehovah’s witness cease to be a jehovah’s witness?

what if a witness doesn't believe some of the official teachings of the governing body but remains silent on these subjects to avoid being disfellowshipped?

is he or she an apostate to the faith?

Vanderhoven7

Thank you Blondie for the excellent quotes showing the Faithful Slave has the authority to judge who gets eternally destroyed.

69

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman in

take for example revelation 21: 10. .

“….and he showed me the holy city jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god.

here john sees something happening, action.

Vanderhoven7

As for the Parousia...

I can hardly wait for that day! And by faith imagination I visualize it often. Picture it with me if you will; imagine the trumpet of the Lord sounding - and all of humanity being summoned together to witness the most glorious occasion ever – the coronation of the Lord Jesus Christ. We will be so honored; that will be our glory day, our vindication day; For that will be your Saviour, Your Lord and Your God ascending to His rightful throne to be crowned King of Kings and Lord of Lords….to be finally and fully recognized and adored before all mankind.

And as He ascends, if we but turn our heads for a moment, we’ll realize that we’re surrounded by an innumerable company of people, from all nations, countries and languages; a multitude of the redeemed with gold crowns upon their heads, and wearing pure white robes washed in the blood of the lamb. And as Christ reaches the summit; He will stand before the throne of the universe and stretch forth His nail scarred hands to the multitude of saints He has purchased by His own blood.

And unable to contain ourselves we will shout:

“ALL HAIL THE POWER OF JESUS NAME, LET ANGELS PROSTRATE FALL. BRING FORTH THE ROYAL DIADIM AND CROWN HIM LORD OF ALL>

AND EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW…..

Oh that will be glory for me.

I look for that day; I long for that day; I rejoice and exult in its contemplation

And as sure as I am writing this to you, that day will come.

Rick Vanderhoven

For anyone interested: I'm giving a 15 minute talk tomorrow, Sunday, July 30th, live on-line on the issue of interpretation: Exegesis verses Eisegesis - starting at 9:30

You can zoom in at

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/6096206831

69

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman in

take for example revelation 21: 10. .

“….and he showed me the holy city jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god.

here john sees something happening, action.

Vanderhoven7

Beautiful rendition Audrey.

Here is one a little wilder for ya.

https://youtu.be/Ymkl0t0FOcw

69

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman in

take for example revelation 21: 10. .

“….and he showed me the holy city jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god.

here john sees something happening, action.

Vanderhoven7

"Flee to the mountains" when you see the UN (the disgusting thing causing desolation) in the vicinity of "Jerusalem". Jehovah and Jesus are our "mountains" - they are our mountainlike refuge, our relationship with them is a stronghold for us.

Oh please....

You can add to scripture and spiritualize all you want. But the context proves that Jesus was warning his disciples when to flee literal Jerusalem, and literal Judaea and what to pray to mitigate the circumstances of their flight to the literal mountains around Pella. And after the onslaught Jerusalem's survivors would be carried off to the surrounding nations. And they were.

You are claiming that there is a secondary fulfillment to Matthew 24:1-35 which the text absolutely does not support. The temple stones are already removed; the Jews will not be shipped off again to other nations; Jerusalem's severe and literal tribulation would never be repeated (verse 21)

There is no duel fulfillment possible.

When is the last time you brought an extra jacket when working on your roof? When is the last time you prayed your flight would not be in winter or on a Sabbath day? Are you praying for nursing mothers because their mobility will be limited.

I believe that verse 36 and "THAT DAY" signal a change in topic to the second coming (parousia) of Christ. Jesus has already explained what would happen to His own evil generation. Now He contrasts that which would relate to His second coming (parousia) or presence on earth. Notice the contrasts:

Notice the distinctions between

Section I (Matt 24:1-35) destruction of Jerusalem

Section II (Matt 24: 36 - end) Parousia or second coming
__________ __________________

Section I Local, Jerusalem,Judea,Temple

Section II Worldwide: Lu.21:35

Section I Abnormal Times: calamities

Section II Normal Times: Marrying and giving in marriage, working in fields etc.

Section I Specific signs precede culminating in the surrounding armies around Jerusalem

Section II No Signs Given, it will come as a complete surprise as it did in Noah's day.

Section I Timing Anticipated Lu.24:33 , they knew exactly when to flee

Section II Anticipation of the time unknown 24:44 It comes as a surprize

Section I About vengeance on Jerusalem, Judaea and this people

Section II comes as a snare on the whole earth

Section I These Days Mt.24:22

Section II That Day Mt.24:36

Section I Flee

Section II No Running; Saints taken

69

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman in

take for example revelation 21: 10. .

“….and he showed me the holy city jerusalem coming down out of heaven from god.

here john sees something happening, action.

Vanderhoven7

@EP

The “abomination of desolation” refer to the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem that desolated Jerusalem and the temple

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Mark 13:14

Christians were to flee Judaea to escape this onslaught, hoping and praying for favorable weather conditions and timing elements (not on a Sabbath) which would hinder escape.

Luke adds the detail of subsequent captivity and deportation of Jewish survivors.

Luke 21:20-24 KJV — And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.