Sammy deals with some objections... very entertaining but the truth is clear. Matthew 24:1-35 is exclusively about Jerusalem's judgment terminating in 70 A.D.
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
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Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
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41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
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Vanderhoven7
THE GREAT TRIBULATION
The synoptics support that the great tribulation Jesus
spoke about would be an unrepeatable local event.
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Matthew 24:15-21 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
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Mark 13:14-19 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
14. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
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Luke 21:20-24 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the
desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
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Albert Barnes comments: "Standing in the holy place - Mark says, standing where it ought not,” meaning the same thing. All Jerusalem was esteemed “holy,” Mat_4:5. The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple." it is time to flee Jerusalem.
Very little is ascribed the word holy in the gospels. God, Jesus, the city and it's temple uniquely qualify. God's holy presence in the temple remained until the death of Christ, when the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom (i.e. from above) exposing the fact that God's holy presence was removed and the temple desolate as Jesus ominous prophetic pronouncement indicated. (see Matthew 23:38)This act of God symbolized the permanent removal of God's presence accompanying the nations rejection of their messiah; Israel's greatest loss made this the worst unrepeatable disaster possible for Israel. The complete physical destruction of the holy temple (as a witness to the nations) ratified this divine rejection for the entire world to see for all time... to which the Dome of the Rock and the wailing wall continue to attest.
CONCLUSION: The great tribulation had to be a one-time,non-repeatable event in history; a fairly local event affecting the Jews in and around Jerusalem and leading to their death or dispersion among the nations. Jesus provided the Sign to Flee and escape Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction: Matthew 24: 18-23 The plight of the Jews who didn't heed Jesus' instruction to flee is aptly described in Luke 21: 21-24.People who try to make this a dual fulfillment make Jesus a Master wordsmith speaking literally to his generation and figuratively to ours.
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Do you recognize this?
by Gorb inthinking sometimes about my youth days and the stories my grandfather told me about our jw congregation.
do you recognize that your congregation was full of somehowe strange folks, very low educated, poor and simple?.
the po was an elder with some distance, with some personality acting intelligent and following the rules strict.. there was always a kind of scandal.
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Vanderhoven7
Charlie Ryde was a JW during the 80s. He writes:
When I was a Jehovahs Witness in the 80’s and 90’s we were told we had THE TRUTH.
What was the Truth?
It was the unflinching belief that Armageddon was so close…soooo close… that wasting your time on having children or getting a college education was unwise. Many JWs believed this so much they failed to prepare financially for the future. The Truth sounded great, all you had to do was be a faithful JW for a little while, a few years at best, and you would live a life of immortal perfection on a paradise Earth.
But time marched on, and here we are. The Truth said people living in 1914 would never die, because that’s when Jesus returned and the promise would be fulfilled. Millions then living have most certainly died, so The Truth was changed to make that false prophecy seem okay.
Now the New and Improved TRUTH says the generation that overlapped the generation of 1914 will never die. Too bad some JWs didn’t get a career or have children based on the old Truth, chalk it up to experience.
The good news for the Watchtower is the New and Improved Truth bought them some time. Time they are using wisely to regroup. Recent changes include reorganizing finances so the individual congregations no longer control their own donations.
Nothing bad could come from a centralized government taking complete control of finances right? Of course not, nothing bad ever happened in this situation in the history of mankind.
Now we have the video below. The New and Improved Truth with 10% more Bonus Truth. Personally anyone who doesn’t immediately reject a leader who says what this JW Leader says is not worth associating with in my life, much less a whole room full of these people.
Remember, this man is part of a direct link to god that gets “new light” and alters The Truth as needed
So what’s the next Truth? what level of control are you willing to give in to? Are you comfortable with living a life with only one purpose, to serve the Jehovahs Witnesses?
Many are. Including much of my family. And it has fragmented our families, dividing us into believers and nonbelievers who don’t speak. Just know going into this that that is a distinct possibility.
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Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
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Vanderhoven7
@Rattigan
Was Jesus clean shaven with short hair? What do beards and hair length have to do with truth? Look at message content, not at the superficial.
Compare Steve Gregg's analysis of Revelation with the farcical Revelation Climax At Hand book.
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Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
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Vanderhoven7
@Vidqun
The GT was a non-repeatable event affecting The Jews and Jerusalem.
Luke 21:34 in context.
33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.Note a change in subject in what follows here as seen also in (Matt. 24:36–44; Mark 13:32–37 )34¶And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earthJesus basically was asked 2 questions one about when the temple would come down and then other, about the signs preceding his second coming (parousia) in judgment. Jesus separated these 2 judgments, the first having signs, it's timing to allow believers to flee at the exact moment, it would be localized and that they should pray that their flight would not be hampered by weather conditions etc.
The second coming (parousia) however would not be something one could free from, it would come as a complete surprise, it would be worldwide and no signs would precede it's happening.
Matthew and Mark make this division (Jerusalem vs World judgment) more clearly
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.36¶But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.Be Ready for His Coming
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. -
41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
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Vanderhoven7
Yes, and as far as I can see, the GT consists of a series of events that culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
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41
Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?
by Vanderhoven7 into me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.
my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.
but steve greg has armageddon down pat.
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Vanderhoven7
To me it is quite evident that the GT spoken about in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving Jews throughout the nations.
However, what is not so clear to most is that the GT of Revelation deals with the same event. My understanding is that the GB of Jehovah Witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and Revelation. But Steve Greg has Armageddon down pat. What do you think?
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Jehovah’s Witnesses or Jesus Witnesses?
by Vanderhoven7 inkeith writes.
you have just touched on a flawed doctrinal belief that is foundational to false religion.. first, it is important to understand what false religion means when they call themselves jehovah’s witnesses.
by this, they declare themselves to be “witnesses of the father” despite the fact that jehovah is not the name of god at all, but a concoction of human origin from the dark ages.. here is the flaw:.
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Vanderhoven7
Granted, Keith's argument is flawed.
It seems to me that “You are my witnesses, declares Jehovah, applied to those under the Old Covenant. Noteworthy is the fact that this designation was not repeated to the anointed or to Gentiles under the New Covenant. However, Christians are called repeatedly to witness to Jesus Christ in the Greek scriptures.
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Jehovah’s Witnesses or Jesus Witnesses?
by Vanderhoven7 inkeith writes.
you have just touched on a flawed doctrinal belief that is foundational to false religion.. first, it is important to understand what false religion means when they call themselves jehovah’s witnesses.
by this, they declare themselves to be “witnesses of the father” despite the fact that jehovah is not the name of god at all, but a concoction of human origin from the dark ages.. here is the flaw:.
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Vanderhoven7
The New Testament confirms:
Christians were to be witnesses of Christ, not Jehovah:
(Matthew 10:18) ....before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness....
(Mark 13:9) ...be put on the stand......for my sake, for a witness to them.
(Luke 24:48) You are to be witnesses of these things.
(John 1:15) (John bore witness about him, (Jesus)
(John 5:37) And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me.
(John 8:18) ...bears witness about myself, and the Father..bears witness about me.”
(John 15:26, 27) ....bear witness about me; and you, in turn, are to bear witness....
(Acts 1:8) ..witnesses of me in Jerusalem,.....the most distant part of the earth.”
(Acts 9:15, 16) But the Lord said to him: “Go! because this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. For I will show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.”
(Acts 10:39) And we are witnesses of all the things he did.......
(Acts 10:43) To him (Jesus) all the prophets bear witness....
(Acts 13:31) .......These are now his witnesses to the people.
(Acts 22:15) because you are to be a witness for him (Jesus) to all men......
(Acts 22:20) and when the blood of Stephen your witness...
(Acts 23:11) ....witness about me in Jerusalem,.....also bear witness in Rome.”
(Acts 26:16) .....a witness .....................respecting me.
(1 Corinthians 1:6) ...the witness about the Christ has been made firm among you,
(1 Timothy 2:6, 7) ...this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.
(2 Timothy 1:8) ....the witness about our Lord.......
(1 John 5:9) ....this is the witness God gives, the witness.....about his Son.
(Revelation 1:9) ......bearing witness concerning Jesus.
(Revelation 12:17) ....have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.
(Revelation 17:6) ......and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.
(Revelation 19:10) ....witnessing concerning Jesus...the witness concerning Jesus...”
(Revelation 20:4) ...for the witness they gave about Jesus......
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Jehovah’s Witnesses or Jesus Witnesses?
by Vanderhoven7 inkeith writes.
you have just touched on a flawed doctrinal belief that is foundational to false religion.. first, it is important to understand what false religion means when they call themselves jehovah’s witnesses.
by this, they declare themselves to be “witnesses of the father” despite the fact that jehovah is not the name of god at all, but a concoction of human origin from the dark ages.. here is the flaw:.
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Vanderhoven7
Keith writes
You have just touched on a flawed doctrinal belief that is foundational to false religion.
First, it is important to understand what false religion means when they call themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses. By this, they declare themselves to be “witnesses of the Father” despite the fact that Jehovah is NOT the name of God at all, but a concoction of human origin from the Dark Ages.
Here is the flaw:
Is it even possible for ANYONE to be a witness of the Father?
The answer to that from the Bible is No!
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (John 1:18 NKJV)
This Scripture says that the Father no one has seen, except the Son. So only Jesus can be a witness to the Father!
And if no one has seen the Father, how can anyone testify about the Father???
Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of His day who considered themselves a type of “witnesses of the Father” here:
And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. (John 5:37-38 NKJV)
Did you see that? The Jews considered themselves to be “witnesses of the Father” when in reality they have neither seen Him nor heard Him.
But Jesus said that the Father’s word doesn’t dwell in them because they don’t believe in Jesus, whom the Father testified about.
Thus, it is the will of the Father that all should look to the Son, making them, therefore, witnesses of Jesus:
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. (Acts 1:8 NKJV)
These are the words of Jesus to His disciples just before He was to ascend into Heaven after His resurrection. Clearly He told His followers that they would be “witnesses of Jesus” NOT “witnesses of the Father.”
The same statement is repeated at the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, who became Paul the Apostle:
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.” (Acts 9:15-16 NKJV)
The One speaking here is Jesus, and He clearly states that Paul is to bear His Name (not the name of the Father) before kings and Gentiles. Therefore, Paul is also a “Jesus Witness!”
The Apostle Peter also said this:
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. (2 Peter 1:16-18 NKJV)
Peter is a special case in that he not only witnessed the Transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain, but He also heard the Father’s voice declaring Jesus to be His Son.
And despite hearing the Father’s voice, Peter is testifying about Christ, NOT the Father!
Why?
Because the Father gave Jesus honor and glory (2 Peter 1:17) The Apostle John, who was there with Peter, echoes the same message:
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14 NKJV)
John is referring to the experience in the Mount of Transfiguration where the Bible records what Jesus was speaking about with Moses and Elijah on that mountain:
And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. (Luke 9:30-31 NKJV)
Thus the prophecy in the Old Testament is referring to being witnesses of Jesus:
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.” (Isaiah 43:10 NKJV)
The Apostle Paul, in his testimony about his conversion said this:
Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. (Acts 22:12-14 NKJV)
Indeed, Paul both saw and heard Jesus, which qualifies him as a “witness” for Jesus to bear His Name before kings and Gentiles.
Conclusion:
It is IMPOSSIBLE to be a “witness of the Father” because no one has seen the Father, but the Son was seen by Abraham, Moses, the elders of Israel, the disciples, and many more!
Every genuine Christian is a “Jesus Witness” and certainly NOT a “Jehovah’s Witness.”