Posts by MeanMrMustard

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

MeanMrMustard

Just had an interesting interaction with a Rabbi online.

I've never started a post with that statement. Congrats.

...the pericope is a dramatization of the superiority of humans over animals in their "being like God". This elevation has the consequences (cost) of self-awareness (nakedness) and acute sense of mortality (day you eat you will die). Rather than being a 'fall' in fact it was a celebration of human intelligence and psychology while acknowledging our mortality.

I agree.

There are stories like this in indigenous groups everywhere.

Yeap.

No argument from me.

But there are two categories of Bible readers: those that think Genesis is literal history, and those that do not. Clearly it's less insane to not think of it as actual history.

But if you do.. well, there's a lot of internal problems with the story.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

MeanMrMustard

If you are saying that Adam was created without literal knowledge of "good and evil" and that God's command was therefore like expecting a dog to know the difference between sweet poison and sweet juice, then you are also saying that the other aspects of the text are literal too.

I'm just taking the story at face value. There was a tree of "knowledge of good and evil". At some point, if you believe this story as literal history, they ate the fruit. Ok, what did that act impart to those pre-humans? Was it the knowledge of good and evil?

Genesis 2:25 says they felt no shame before eating. Chapter 3:7 they became aware of their nakedness, felt shame. They had (v 5) began to "know good and evil".

So, before - no knowledge of good and evil. After, they are "like god" knowing good and evil. This is the story handed to us by JWs and other people who take this as history.

I was exploring what it means for a human (pre-human) to be in that state, and what it implies about their ability to take the "right" course of action. And what that means about the culpability of doing "wrong".

Everyone keeps focusing on the serpent, whether you believe it was Satan or not, as being so clever. Oh poor Eve. She was tricked, lied to, and now look at us. No, she wasn't tricked. She had no idea what was happening to her. She couldn't decern good from evil. She couldn't detect deception because she couldn't understand evil.

I compared them to a dog because without a moral compass there is nothing to guide self control, and even if they are incredibly intelligent, they would behave like dogs.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

MeanMrMustard

And then if you are to be believed, why did you remember this narrative incorrectly in the first place? How can we trust someone who can't even remember the narrative correctly to start with?

Perhaps you are unaware of the new texts, unearthed recently, that I've dutifully copied into this thread on page 6, tens of thousands of years old, not made up by me at all, that help expand our knowledge of some of those most critical first days.

Also, note my first statement on page 6. I am approaching this from literalist/ JW perspective. You know, cause that's why we are here. Of course I think there are other less literal ways of interpreting that story. Orrrrrr, there is always the perspective that it has nothing at all to do with reality - a perpective that I favor. But hey, I'm not saying you can't find any meaning in it at all, especially after getting incredibly stoned on a Friday evening.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

MeanMrMustard

I'm sticking with my theory that God lied to Adam and Eve because that's all he do to keep them in line. They had no way of successfully operating morally, even in a paradise garden.

Telling Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree because it was "wrong" would be like trying to convince your dog not to drink from the antifreeze spill in your garage - you just can't do it. All you can hope to do is swat him away when he gets too close.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

MeanMrMustard

Meanmustard brought up some good points regarding the very possible mental capacity of Adam and Eve at this juncture, which I believe further explains and justifies the simplicity of God's command to stay away from the tree of knowledge.

Yes, but also their ability to ward off even the most rudimentary deceptions. Even their capacity to "trust" God is severely handicapped. More below...

The command was so simple and elementary so as to borderline on 'dumb'.

The simplicity doesn't have anything to do with it.

Why did the snake insist on eating from this forbidden tree given all the circumstances? As mustard pointed out, Adam and Eve couldn't have fathomed the consequences of disobedience, since even the concept of 'death' was not clear to them...such was their lack of comprehension.

But it goes much deeper. "Trust" is a "reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something". How can they rely on the "truth" of God when they don't even understand what "lies" are? What we would call someone's "character" is based on whether they believe and display "good" traits, and not "evil" ones - none of which Adam or Eve would be able to decern.

I don't even think trust works here - at least not any sort of "trust" to which you could attach moral culpability.

Adam could have wondered the garden, blissfully and innocently raping lions and goats, with his wife, and neither of them would be able to even begin to grasp why that be wrong. Those actions would hold the same moral weight as eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad.

In other words, the ability to "trust" is still contingent on a sense of morality. What you are considering "trust" is more akin to blind obedience in the face of a contradicted threat, with no way to reasonably evaluate the sides - correction - without any awareness there are "sides" at all.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

MeanMrMustard

The way I see it, you either believe the Bible or you don't.

Right. But let me direct your attention to 1 Thesadonians 3:1,2:

1. The next verse is true.

2. The previous verse is false.

What now? The internal contradictions we are discussing in this thread set up a situation like the above two verses. That's the power of pointing out internal contradictions - nothing external is needed.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

MeanMrMustard

Lol. Maybe this is why he was given a wife. Brilliant, even better.

Notice, in that newly discovered ancient manuscript, immortalized on page 6 of this thread, that documents a discussion between Adam and God, that I definitely did not make up, you can get a sense of how futile it would be to attempt to steer a man that can't tell good from evil.

A man that has no knowledge of good and evil can't be given a reason "why" he should refrain, other than a direct threat to his own physical experience, just a general consequence in a cause/effect relationship.

Perhaps the "tree" lie was just another "white lie" told by God because there was no other way to explain it Adam. "You'll die if you eat from that tree" might have been the only way to get Adam to respond, much like "You'll go blind if you keep jerking it around the garden."

So he understood that God gave him instructions, and he followed them. He knew God was in charge. Adam understood he was subservient to God.

Adam was mentally capable...

He could understand facts told to him. And logic. But since he didn't understand good from evil, right from wrong, navigating a world of free will would be like navigating a world of color when all you can see is gray.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

MeanMrMustard

A little known fact : based on other ancient manuscripts recently found, there was another recorded exchange between God and Adam sometime before the "tree" talk. It may shed light on the nature of the "lie" told here.

God: Hello Adam.

Adam: Hello. Beautiful day. Thanks for that.

God: No worries. You're welcome. But I wanted to talk to you for a moment about something you keep doing.

Adam: Sure. What's that?

God: Well, I can't help but notice, along with all the angels, that you tend to spend your day masterbating around the garden.

Adam: Yes. For sure. It's great. A hearty thanks for that too.

God: Yes. But you really shouldn't so that so much.

Adam: I shouldn't? What do you mean.

God: Well, it's not right.

Adam: Oh, am doing it incorrectly? There is a better way? Well, what is it? I would love to hear the right way.

God: No, no. That's not what I mean. I mean it's not an appropriate thing to do. That's all the angels are talking about.

Adam: What do you mean by "appropriate"? If I can do it, why wouldn't I?

God: Because it is not good.

Adam: Oh, it's pretty good. Have you ever done it? Do you know what it's like?

God: No, of course I haven't.

Adam: Really? I just thought you might do it now again since I was made in your image. I figure you had a well developed part ... well, maybe you've been missing out. Let me show you how it's done. First you grab it like this...

God: I know how it's done! Stop it.

Adam: Oh so you know what it's like. You must know, you know everything, right?

God: No it's not like that. I don't have that type of knowledge. I don't know what it is like experientially to do .... At least not for the next 7000 years or so.

Adam: What's that supposed to mean?

God: Nothing. Look, that's all you seem to do. The act itself is unclean and wrong.

Adam: Well, I don't know what you mean by "wrong". You said I was doing it "right", and I wash up in the garden stream quite often.

God: I want you to stop it.

Adam: But why?

God: You have to trust me that it's not a good act.

Adam: That's kinda... hard... to believe. Get it? Eh? I mean you are saying it's wrong, but I'm doing it "right"... and it feels super great. So, I don't know what you mean. Are you mistaken? Look, I can show it's good. Let me give you a demonst.....

God: I'm not mistaken! It's not moral to do.

Adam: What does "not moral" mean?

God: It means that it's evil. The opposite of good.

Adam: I see. Like stubbing my toe? That hurt. It was not good. Was it evil to stub my toe?

God: No that was just an accident.

Adam: So accidents are good? Or are they evil?

God: Neither... they are more neutral than anything.

Adam: I don't think I understand.

God: *sigh*.. Look, just don't do it. If you do you'll go blind, ok?

Adam: Blind?! That would be horrible. I like seeing.

God: Right. So there you go. Just stop or you'll go blind.

Adam: Sure thing. I'm going to go rape that goat now. TTYL.

God: No... wait... ugggg

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

MeanMrMustard

Hence, the simplicity of the command.

So? The ability to understand the words, and the meaning of the words, is different than understanding the moral implications of the command. Without the knowledge of "good" and "evil", there is NO concept of "should" and "should not".

It wasn't even about a single, isolated tree beckoning them. It was a garden. There were trees everywhere. All blending in and looking the same or similar perhaps.

I'm not sure why that matters.

If I'm understanding your question correctly, that mechanism was trust. Assuming that Adam and Eve were as ignorant as you propose, it would be trust.

If someone doesn't know good from evil, does that person even know the difference between "truth" and "lie"? A lie a false statement made with an intent to deceive. Adam may know the difference between "correct" and "incorrect". But to Adam or Eve, a statement that contradicts God's statement had no malice in it. To them, they have no way to treat it other than new, updated info... new light, if you will. "Oh, you mean God was mistaken?"

You might counter that they shouldn't have believed or trusted anything anyone else said. But upon what basis do they have the ability to make that judgement? The idea that they are being deceived is derived from the knowledge of good and evil. If they are to "trust" God, then they would "distrust" others. What reason would they have to "distrust" others, except for the possibility they may be deceived, and that's beyond their ability to discern of even "know" at that moment.

The scriptures tell us Adam deferred to God, knowing he was inferior to God, not equals. He knew that much...that God, by virtue of being 'superior' would know better.

Ok. What do you mean by "better"?

The scripture also reveals that they understood that death, whatever that was, was not a desired thing. They had enough capacity to put not following God's command as equaling death, as equaling not a desired thing.

I don't think you understand how disabled they were, if they didn't know right from wrong. I refer to my paragraphs above.

As for the ultimate price being justified. People of faith will always defer to God, always. People without faith, obviously never will.

I don't think so. If a mentally retarded child takes a candy bar from a store, do we dole out the death penalty?

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

MeanMrMustard

Also, why is Satan a "master deceiver"? Seems like deceiving Adam and Eve would be like putting a bacon treat in front of a puppy...