MeanMrMustard

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Posts by MeanMrMustard

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  51

  The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

  1. father .

  2. jesus .

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  MeanMrMustard

  No. There is nothing that the trinitarians can do to prove it. What they use are weak and irrelevant arguments from scriptures that are spurious and controversial. They just have their pet scriptures, but when examined they don't work.

  And they will say the same about you.

  Both sides have different fundamental ideas about what it means to be "a son" of anything. To you, it implies separateness. To them, continuity of nature.

  What does it mean to be a man? To you it means something physical - which is the opposite of God, which is spirit. To them, the physical is only one part, and that doesn't contradict the being spirit at the same time.

  For them, to be "man" implies a set of characteristics that make you a member of the category "man". Likewise there is a set of attributes and abilities that can only put you into the category of "God". To you, "God" isn't even a category, but a singular thing.

  For you, "spirit" is not unlike "the nature" of certain creatures, even God. To them, "the nature" of something is much more than "spirit" and, again, implies "category".

  I could go on and on... just look at the word "death" a few posts back.

  These threads end up in these cycles because you are speaking right past each other. Both sides operate with radically different definitions of just about every word that matters on this topic. That is why both sides can quote the same scripture, the exact same one, and yet both sides will act like it soundly ended the debate.

  Meanwhile, the patient continues to bleed.....
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  14

  Do you see it?

  by MeanMrMustard in

  1. social
  2. humour

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  MeanMrMustard

  Yes.

  Try focusing at the center, and move back from the image. Or squint a lil bit.
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  14

  Do you see it?

  by MeanMrMustard in

  1. social
  2. humour

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  MeanMrMustard

  
  
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  51

  The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

  1. father .

  2. jesus .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  MeanMrMustard

  @Anony Mous:

  Just for the record, I'm an atheist.

  I am an atheist, former theist, participating on a thread with a title proclaiming the unending arguments about the Trinity are fruitless, all the while attempting to bear some fruit.

  I'm outside looking in, with no dog in the fight, so-to-speak, offering a viewpoint from the outside. It seems that the never ending arguments over the Trinity are like two doctors arguing over the best treatment for a patient. One says the cut on his arm should be fixed first, the other says the cut on his leg should be treated first. Meanwhile the patient is bleeding out due a large stab wound to the chest.

  And maybe, just maybe, if we can recognize that the issue of the Trinity, whichever side is correct, is a smaller issue than it's made out to be, then there will be at least some fruit from at least one thread on the internet about the Trinity.
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  66

  Trump wins

  by gavindlt in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am non political and have never voted but nonetheless i have been keenly watching to see how the trump presidential race unfolds.

  i believe that his involvement in propelling or influencing a leaning toward bible prophecy will unfold.

  how, i can’t say but something tells me that this anomaly and outlier being trump is highly signifiant!

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  MeanMrMustard

  Let's go!

  Repeal the 16th and 17th amendments.

  Pass a balanced budget amendment.

  That would be a good start.
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  51

  The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

  1. father .

  2. jesus .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  MeanMrMustard

  @Anony Mous:

  See, now there is a link on the thread detailing how, in fact, the Trinitarian side is pagan, and by default non-Christian.

  If someone believes in Jesus, repents, and believes in the resurrection - and that person is saved, isn't that person a Christian? If your Lord and savior Jesus Christ saves someone, wouldn't THAT be the definition of Christian?

  Also, at that point, any doctrine or teaching not required to bring someone to that state seems to be of secondary importance. That's not saying it's unimportant - just not fundamental. The Nicene Creed is not the way to salvation. But neither is its rejection.
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  51

  The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

  1. father .

  2. jesus .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  MeanMrMustard

  @SeaBreeze:

  It's funny how I've heard the exact same thing from non-Trinitarians.

  But again, by your experience, salvation is not dependent on understanding the inner workings / nature of God. So if someone can never come to terms with a Trinitarian God, that is, it honestly doesn't make sense to them, then would God pull away salvation?
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  51

  The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

  1. father .

  2. jesus .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  MeanMrMustard

  Well for one thing, without divinity, Jesus would have been a liar when he said that he would resurrect himself from the dead. I face plenty of liars in my line of work; don't need another one in my life.

  Ok. But the non-Trinitarians have a different way of reading those scriptures, and because human language can be quite subjective, their reading is plausible too, and in their view, Jesus is also not a liar.

  My question is - why is this issue such contentious such that both sides wish to revoke the title of "Christian" from the other, including salvation with it?
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  51

  The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

  1. father .

  2. jesus .

  1. 
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  MeanMrMustard

  @MeanMrMustard: because what you state is the view of Jesus according to Mormons (or Islam).

  No, you're missing the point altogether. For Mormons the central figure is Joseph Smith. For Muslims it's Mohammad. Jesus plays secondary, if not tertiary roles. What we have here are many different denominations that say, "Jesus is the central figure. It is Him! Or him." Whatever scripture you have for your view, they explain it differently, and their view is just as sincere.

  You cannot agree to reject the divinity of Christ as elaborated in the Nicene Creed and still be a Christian, it’s kind of the definition of being a Christian, ...

  Well, they disagree with your definition. If you just claim your view is "kinda the definition" / defacto Christianity, then they will simply claim the same and we've gained nothing.

  My point is that you may be right. They may be right. But it's not as central of an issue as your think. Or as they think. It is tiny, academic. When someone asks "what is required to gain salvation", the answer isn't the Nicene Creed. Also, the answer isn't the rejection of the Nicene Creed.

  every denomination has held this since the establishment of Christianity.

  So?

  The trinity is just the mechanics of how God came to Earth and died for our sins in a human body, because nobody can ‘see’ God in completeness and live, therefore there must be a part of God that came down (the Son) and a connecting force (the Holy Spirit). It’s more of an explanation, but you cannot say they are separate, that would be considered heresy.

  What's more important : the details of the mechanics of salvation, or the fact that there is an opportunity for salvation with pretty easy, non-intellectual requirements? Why add complication to the formula, either to require a Trinitarian God, or to reject one?

  You can call your belief something else, but the majority of Christians would agree you are not a Christian if you reject that.

  Except the other Christians that disagree.
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  51

  The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

  by Longlivetherenegades in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

  1. father .

  2. jesus .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  MeanMrMustard

  To all Christaians out there : why is it necessary to believe or reject the Trinity (depending on which camp you reside) in order to gain salvation? Either Jesus is God (fully) or he is a representative, or "son" ... or perhaps a mode. Whatever he is, as a Christian, God (in whatever nature he resides) has made provision through Jesus, right? Simply have sincere faith, repent, accept him (whatever he was), and that he rose on the third day.

  Can't we all just get along?