Posts by Billen76

17

All JWs share the same belief

by biometrics in

i was having a discussion with a (currently serving) elder recently when he brought up a straw-man argument that went something like this:.

elder: i've been invited to speak with other christian groups, you know what they do when studying the bible?.

elder: they read a verse or chapter, then go around the room asking how everyone interprets the reading.

Billen76

Most JW's believe, what they think all JW believe... I believe

48

Well, it's official, I am a rabid, mentally diseased Apostate!

by serenitynow! in

jw
friends

so an apostabuddy wanted to stage a silent protest at the assembly hall where she was baptized.

we went today.

the plan was to wear these apostate t-shirts that had stuff printed on them about thinking for yourself, and a bunch of websites.

First time I saw the "security"-elders throw someone of the premises, I was quite shocked. And the most strange: noone seemed to notice, even though it happened right in front of us. (It was during a readup of the declaration, all at the assembly was to shout YES to). Two elders just sat down on each side of the man, grapped him under his arms and lifted him up and ot. I just wonder how often it have happened.

Good going, serenity.

13

Rolf Furuli

by inbetween in

my experience with jw so far taught me, that among them are all kind of personalities, with their particular reason for joining or staying in a religion (cult) like jw.. you find those with mental problems, those born in, who dont know any better, those with serious problems handling life (drug, alcohol, porn addic, who need strict rules to function).. but there are also quit normal people, who manage their life failry good, they often just accept anything of the org on a superficial basis, without giving too much thought, and going more or less through the motions.. then there are those, who really are deep thinkers, often with higher education.

besides their belief they take interest in things like quantum theories, history, even philosophy to a point etc..... however, they do not use their sharpe mind when it comes to examining their own religion.

i can in the meantime even understand this, because mostly they have emotional reasons as well to be a jw, and anything contradicting they put under "cognitive dissonance", and just dont think about it.. however, what puzzles me most, is when some of them, being exposed to apostate ideas, still use all their ability and skills to defend clearly ridiculous positions.. personally i also like to scrutinize things, i tried the same with some doctrine, particularly blood teachings, and could not find a solution, thinking it was my lack of insight.

Billen76

@ sizemik

It has allways been a kingdom divided against itself, where the WTB$ came out the strongest and crushed all opposition. But people hang on and still more are lured into the trap. I'm afraid we should not get our hopes up high in this regard. People (we) are dum and there will allways be new generations who are ignorant of the past and that can be convinced to remain so. They would litterally be willing to "sell their souls" to be part of something important, get a package of obligated friends and get to "own" their family.

Rolf Furuli is just giving the norweegean congos false hope that may get a lot of youngsters to cling on to the JW. The society will not change fundamentally and they will grow up in a trap. RF might even mean well, but he is still just a man helping the WTB$ to trap people.

NB: Regarding "selling ones soul", it is intereting that thisis actually what "Insight" explains that the witnesses have done. They have "sold their souls" to the organisation! (see "Soul", serving with the whole soul)

13

Rolf Furuli

by inbetween in

my experience with jw so far taught me, that among them are all kind of personalities, with their particular reason for joining or staying in a religion (cult) like jw.. you find those with mental problems, those born in, who dont know any better, those with serious problems handling life (drug, alcohol, porn addic, who need strict rules to function).. but there are also quit normal people, who manage their life failry good, they often just accept anything of the org on a superficial basis, without giving too much thought, and going more or less through the motions.. then there are those, who really are deep thinkers, often with higher education.

besides their belief they take interest in things like quantum theories, history, even philosophy to a point etc..... however, they do not use their sharpe mind when it comes to examining their own religion.

i can in the meantime even understand this, because mostly they have emotional reasons as well to be a jw, and anything contradicting they put under "cognitive dissonance", and just dont think about it.. however, what puzzles me most, is when some of them, being exposed to apostate ideas, still use all their ability and skills to defend clearly ridiculous positions.. personally i also like to scrutinize things, i tried the same with some doctrine, particularly blood teachings, and could not find a solution, thinking it was my lack of insight.

Billen76

Regarding Rolf Furuli then the word is, that the WTS allready tried to silence him and/or discredit him and/or kick him out. Their problem was, that Rolf Furuli have massive support in the Norweegean congos. It is said that many CBoE's in Norway threathened to disassociate the WTS if they touched Rolf Furuli. So they don't touch him, because he is quite popular amongst the witnesses in Norway.

I would guess he is one of those, that believe he can change things inside the JW community. Ex. he is advocating that young witnesses seek higher education.

If people feel locked in the community they have sweared their life to, they rather want to change the "spirit" of the community than leaving it all behind. It is a social thing then. They are still living on a lie though and lures the young ones into a trap by their activity. JW community remains just that despite it all, a trap.

17

Watchtower admits Bible Teaches Trinity & hellfire!

by williamhconley in

the wathtower admits that by reading the bible alone without their help, people will believe in the trinity, hellfire, visible return of christ, heavenly hope for all christians etc etc.. here's the quote:.

"from time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of jehovah's people those, who, like the original satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude... they say that it is sufficient to read the bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home.

but, strangely, through such 'bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago..." (watchtower, aug. 15, 1981, p. 29).. why would people revert back to christendoms doctrines unless the bible actually teaches them!.

Billen76

We all have a big bunch of "silent knowledge" (prelearned experience) that we draw from, when interpretating the world around us. That is why controlling the language is so important. We also draw on "silent knowledge" when interpretating words and terms.

Ex. changing a known word to avoid activating peoples "silent knowledge":
koiné, "charis" - english, grace - watchtowerish, undeserved kindness

Ex. remoduling "silent knowledge" connected to words:
The Truth - english, factual - biblish, Jesus - watchtowerish, the organisation

This does that watchtower indoctrinated people can use the same fraze's and terms as "outsiders", but mean the (sometimes) totally opposite.

8

This Weeks Watchtower Study

by Lets Think in

so paragraph 5 of todays watchtower says: people with faith see clearly the difference between the baseless claims of men and the sacred promises of jehovah god.

then i thought of every pre 1995 awake inside cover page in the box where it say why the awake is published; where it says:.

most important, this magazine builds confidence in the creators promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.. .

Billen76

@tiki

Use Google Chrome as browser

25

Thank you note from Circuit Overseer

by RayPublisher in

notice how thankful we should be to "the slave"... he said that expression dozens of times in his recent visit, over and over and over ad nauseum.. .

can i barf now?.

Billen76

The foremans (appointed by the management) speach to the workers of Sewercleaning Inc.

"The Management gave us exactly what we needed. This midweek service meetings were practical & beneficial. The Management also knows it's easy to get tired. Yet, they reminded us how to face challenges to our zealous perseverance by how the Founder was an example for us. How kind it was that they give us these potent reminders & digninfy us by allowing us to examine our work & make the needed adjustments in our approach. Truly, we are living with the special knowledge that the great flush is near. How we are blessed by the Director to know this & appreaciate this. What a privilege it is to be used by the Director to help other to understand and act on this knowledge."

And now you are telling me, that the payday is a figment of imagination?!

54

Stop making the BINARY error of Jehovah's Witness theology

by Terry in

true or false.. black or white.. life or death.. .

the above are binary.

this or that.. computing is based on binary choices.

Billen76

@Terry

:) They lacked the understanding of the importance of the element of surprise. You had time to think. That was their mistake. Plus they even got you suspicious by being eager to make you aware of its whereabout. You would get suspicious as soon as THEY pointed something out. Distrusting and on your guard. Tsk. Me, I would have showed you the movie "Arachnaphobia" first and shared with you stories about black widows found in toolbox's killing the unfortunate man trying to fetch his hammer. Then I would greet you goodnight and let yourself discover a fake spider hidden under your duvet. As you open the door either in terror or with intend to mock me because you had discovered the spider was fake, the REAL spider would be hanging in your face from the doorframe where I had placed after you closed the door. :) Such things should be done with proper care for detail.

I like your story but have to object. You did not change values. You changed perception of reality. It was not real to you. It was a fairytale, like you would percieve a religious myth now. The STORY was of no value to you as you rejected it. The "value" you place(d)? on spiders, that triggers your primal fear had NOT changed. Only the OBJECT had - or rather, your perception of what the object was. And then we are back at the beginning.

If a mother that loves her child AND believes her child would perish if she allowed it to get a bloodtransfusion, she would still love her child while fighting the doctors over the issue. The problem is the SETTING (she percieve), not how she values her child.

NB: I just realized after posting this, that I skipped the part with you being bitten as a 5 year old child. It is of course not something to take advantage from. But alas, when a child one rarely understands this.

54

Stop making the BINARY error of Jehovah's Witness theology

by Terry in

true or false.. black or white.. life or death.. .

the above are binary.

this or that.. computing is based on binary choices.

Billen76

Terry wrote: " Our strongest emotions follow our strongest values. When we say we "love" we are following what we value as the highest possible."

I write: Our strongest values follow our strongest emotions. Either you love or you don't. Otherwise it is a pretend, founded in other motives.

JW's pretend to uphold love as the highest "value". I find this to be complete nonsens. Love is a emotion not a value. Upholding LIFE is a value, a value one can love. If one doesn't love this value, it will fall short when tested. Unless a primal core are connected to the make-belief value.

Survival is a primal instinct. Eating is a primal instinct. Sex is a primal instinct. Breathing is a primal instinct. Motherhood is a primal instinct.

Loyality facing death, fasting, celibacy, breath control and child sacrifice are all attempts to control the primate within us.

Religion most often deals with this. By supressing one primal instinct, another is strengthened. Push one button down, another goes up. And the "victims" base personality are seemingly altered. All this religion seeks to control through theory. An imaginary world in which one needs to adapt. The "build" from here is all pretence and behaviour. If enough joins this imagery, a sense of reality is strenghtened. It can drive people crazy if the religion is into high control.

JW connects love with survival. Hope to see your loved ones again? Then survive. If you obey, you might survive. If you are loyal even when facing death, you might survive. If your child dies while being loyal, it might survive (motherhood+survival, not child sacrifice!).

So when being "loyal facing death", a JW is not surpressing an instinct. It is succumbing to it. It is thrown into a state of instinctal panic where it will grasp the solution it knows to seek safety. When ignorant only few options are readily availible in the moment. The doctors recommendation vs the Org.'s pre-instructed "solutions". Some elders will then come and "help save the life" by "siding" with the parents against the "threat" from the doctors solution.

Yes, it is a "binary" choice (illusion), but it is only possible to maintain this illusion by linking it to a strong instinctal fear (through theory). The parents (and the child) are in a state of instinctal panic while in the fase of choice. If they weren't, they would dismiss those crazy elders and see them for the dangerous frauds they obviously (to all else) are.

If the parents openly rejects the elders "help", they would reject the imaginary world or rather; have liberated themselves from the imaginary threat and started to relate to the real one. That will make them "dangerous" having in the congo, as a part of the "formula" is to maintain the sense of reality to the imagery by isolating the social network to people who accept the imagery.

Again, there MUST be some primal instinct connected to get the followers to accept the controlled instruction. Else they will soon reject it.

I find it highly immoral to toy with people in this way, but it is unfortunately not that uncommon.

NB: We are "social animals". Some claim this is primal instinct also.

54

Stop making the BINARY error of Jehovah's Witness theology

by Terry in

true or false.. black or white.. life or death.. .

the above are binary.

this or that.. computing is based on binary choices.

Billen76

Hi AllTimeJeff

" I would argue that anyone who masters how to win an argument would then need only an argument to win."

I would argue, that this is merely an illusion. Most do not accept an argument, because of the master of arguments. One usually accepts the argument, because the master of argument are able to phrase a line of argumentation that justify what we "want" to hear. (In most JW cases, what is "safe" to hear) The rest is just a pretend.

In the eternal war between instinct and theory, we usually find a resting place where the noice seems the lowest.

Not all religions deals with the same theories. All the theories thoughl deals with our survival instinct. Most seek to calm the instinctal fear of death in order to make room for another focus. A buddhist for pure intellectualism, a christian for practical life and community. These are community building religions.

What Jehovahs Witnesses does is the exact opposite. As Terry describes, JW's are kept on their toes by constant remindal of them "living on the edge". One step wrong and it might cost your life. A constant feed of images and "parallels" that tells about the grim fortune bestoved on those rejecting "the Truth" and failing in obediance. It is all survival, all the time. Thats what our loved ones fear. It's instinct, not theory, after a prolonged period of exposure.

That is why I accept the label "death cult" to be placed on JW. They do not calm the fear of death. They empowers it, lives in it, "thrives" in it. Some even get high on it! Like free climbers hanging on a cliff wall, they get high on the adrenaline it gives, when they sneak in to their grannies 90 years birthday. :) The sheer danger of it while risking their lifes handing over the gift, conquering yet another wallside of theoretical danger.

It is NOT the same as mainstream christianity. Both are of the dreamworld, yes, but one calms the survival instinct, the other heavily exploits the survival instinct and keeps its members on the edge.