You would be right Nitty Gritty. I was listening to a video report from the Commissioner that was focusing on the area of redress for victims and he didn't discuss the whole scope of the Commission.
Listener
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How many of the 1.006 alleged abusers will be investigated by Police?
by Listener inthe commission has the names of 1,006 alleged abusers within australian congregations since 1950. some will have died and others will already have been prosecuted but the branch did not report any of these allegations to police.. the terms of reference for the royal commission is more about redress for the victims but that can include criminal prosecution although they are more focused on financial compensation.. however, now that they have the names of 1,006 potential criminals there is some responsibility to see that they are dealt with criminally.
it appears to be in their authority to have cases followed through by referring them for further investigation.
this is clear because the commissioner has recently reported that to date, they have done so in 493 cases identified within the scope of their commission.
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The JW's 2 witness rule applied to Molestation is wrong AND HERE'S WHY
by wozza inthis is not the first time i've written about this, but with the royal commission happening here in australia, and having fought against the wts on this problem of molestation in the wts over a period of 15 years i feel a need to explain what i found which contradicts what the wts says and the way they handle cases within their society.. i am not going to give the history of my involvement but just state simply why no-one can believe what the wts says ,and we all know the scriptures they use to not handle cases of molestation properly , so here goes , it's not tricky or hard to understand i think, but just use the bible against them (hope this is used at the commission).. i,m using the revised berkely version in plain english here ,.
the context is law giving in the book of deuteronomy ch 22 : vs 22 - 27. vs 22 "when a man is surprised abed with a married woman,they shall both die ,the man who lay with the woman and the woman too; you shall wipe out the evil from israel.".
so this is easy to grasp ,man sleeps with married woman ,judged to die -they got caught.. next vs 23- 24 "when a man comes upon a girl in the city, who is a virgin betrothed to another , and he lies with her,24 you shall bring them both to the gate of the city and stone them to death, the girl because she did not cry out, although the city was all about her, and the man because he violated his neighbour's wife.
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Listener
On the other hand when it comes to the bible principle of not bringing a brother to court they come up with all sorts of exceptions. This includes the idea that it refers only to civil cases, not criminal and even then if the civil case is required in order for the Brother to seek compensation from a third/wordly party then it is okay.
It is too difficult for them to bring new light on this matter of two witnesses. It affects so many lives and Judicial Committees that have been held in the past. It questions the integrity of their management on an authoritative level and more importantly, being led by the Holy Spirit.
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How many of the 1.006 alleged abusers will be investigated by Police?
by Listener inthe commission has the names of 1,006 alleged abusers within australian congregations since 1950. some will have died and others will already have been prosecuted but the branch did not report any of these allegations to police.. the terms of reference for the royal commission is more about redress for the victims but that can include criminal prosecution although they are more focused on financial compensation.. however, now that they have the names of 1,006 potential criminals there is some responsibility to see that they are dealt with criminally.
it appears to be in their authority to have cases followed through by referring them for further investigation.
this is clear because the commissioner has recently reported that to date, they have done so in 493 cases identified within the scope of their commission.
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Listener
They've demonstrated to a great degree that they are ready and willing to comply by supplying them with the Documents that they have. I don't doubt that they will comply with the Commissions findings at the conclusion but I wouldn't go as far as saying that they will be happy to do so. The whole situation is a severe blow to them.
It will be interesting to see how the Brnach Office Witnesses deal with the questions and suggestions posed to them in future days. The question of compensation will be put forward to them, I doubt that they will go beyond saying that they are willing to accept the findings of the RC and will comply with them.
The RC is considering various options on how Victims should be compensated. Their questioning would appear to discover how willing organizations are prepared to directly compensate victims. The RC has explained that any system of compensation that is established should not mean that any organization is liable for mishandling cases and simply recognize that victims do need financial assistance.
The worst case scenario is that the Government would have to foot the bill themselves and find ways in order to raise that money which will be billions of dollars. The RC have mentioned that organization may be required to contribute to a Compensation Fund set up by the Government. Another option they have mentioned is that the organizations directly contribute towards the financial redress of individuals directly.
Personally, I think the only way to go is to require the organizations to directly contribute to a Compensation Fund on the basis of X amount of dollars per victim (and degree of abuse) within their organization. This will allow victims to apply to the Government for redress rather than directly to their own organization, which many, for one reason or another will be reluctant to do. Unfortunately this will impose a heavy financial burden on the Government as many organizations will claim that they either cannot afford it.
But as this is mainly what the RC is about, they will endeavour to come up with the most effective method of compensation without burdening the Government.
If they get it right, the eyes of the World are watching and we will see similar Compensation Funds set up in other courtries. It's pretty much like a test case.
Bottom line is, it is likely to cost the Organization a lot of money and as you point out Nitty Gritty their are many other organizations that this will affect also.
I can't help but wonder if this is the way we are going to see religions dissolve, by being bankrupted and by their followers seeing that their money isn't being used for religious purposes but to right wrongs from the past. The thing is, they brought it upon themselves.
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How many of the 1.006 alleged abusers will be investigated by Police?
by Listener inthe commission has the names of 1,006 alleged abusers within australian congregations since 1950. some will have died and others will already have been prosecuted but the branch did not report any of these allegations to police.. the terms of reference for the royal commission is more about redress for the victims but that can include criminal prosecution although they are more focused on financial compensation.. however, now that they have the names of 1,006 potential criminals there is some responsibility to see that they are dealt with criminally.
it appears to be in their authority to have cases followed through by referring them for further investigation.
this is clear because the commissioner has recently reported that to date, they have done so in 493 cases identified within the scope of their commission.
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Listener
I agree Brokeback Watchtower, I am pretty confident the Commission will attempt to notify all those victims that they now have a record of but unfortunately they won't be able to overcome the mentality that many JWs have. Many may talk to their elders about it and will be reminded about all their obligations as a JW, that is, keeping Jehovah's name clean, relying on Jehovah alone to make matters right, to rely on the support of the elders in comforting them, not taking a Brother before the higher authorities and the harm in seeking compensation from the organization as being counter productive, selfish, litigious and worldly. We'll see a re-emphasis of this in upcoming talks and publications. -
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WT Financial strategy to reduce liability - Create artificial debt!!!!!!
by Viva la Vida insee this letter from the royal commission: .
letter from watchtower australia to governing body regarding transfer of funds between branches.
http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/downloadfile.ashx?guid=61967dc3-2203-4cca-8dc7-cd612c66645e&type=exhibit&filename=wat.0012.001.0023&fileextension=pdf.
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Listener
Just for the record, I am posting extracts from the letter presented by the WTBTS Aust. Branch to the Royal Commission which was addressed to the Head Office.
<<
The legislation applies to non-profit organisations such as charities and religious
organisations. However, “small businesses” are exempt from the operation of the Act. A
business is a “small business” if its annual turnover for the previous year is AUD 3,000,000
(USD 1,500,000) or less. Turnover does not include contributions or donations, but does
include amounts charged to other branches for items supplied by the Australia Branch.
Where funds are transferred without consideration, that is, they are donations or cash
transfers, then those amounts would not be included in the turnover figure......
We now seek your permission to write off all future branch transfers, treating them as
outright donations. In this way we will keep our “turnover” below the threshold and so avoid
the difficulties and obligations that will otherwise apply if we come within the jurisdiction of
this Privacy Act.>>
By their own words, they consider themselves to be a business.
...
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WT Financial strategy to reduce liability - Create artificial debt!!!!!!
by Viva la Vida insee this letter from the royal commission: .
letter from watchtower australia to governing body regarding transfer of funds between branches.
http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/downloadfile.ashx?guid=61967dc3-2203-4cca-8dc7-cd612c66645e&type=exhibit&filename=wat.0012.001.0023&fileextension=pdf.
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Listener
This is interesting because it means that they identify themselves as a business.
This is the definition of Organization under the Privacy Act 1988 (Aust)
<<PRIVACY ACT 1988 - SECT 6C Organisations
What is an organisation ?
(1) In this Act:
"organisation " means:
(a) an individual; or
(b) a body corporate; or
(c) a partnership; or
(d) any other unincorporated association; or
(e) a trust;
that is not a small business operator, a registered political party, an agency, a State or Territory authority or a prescribed instrumentality of a State or Territory.>>
This is basically stating that you are not considered to be an organization under the Act if you are a small business operator. This is the definition of a small business operator under the same Act
<<PRIVACY ACT 1988 - SECT 6D Small business and small business operators
What is a small business ?
(1) A business is a small business at a time (the test time ) in a financial year (the current year ) if its annual turnover for the previous financial year is $3,000,000 or less.
Test for new business
(2) However, if there was no time in the previous financial year when the business was carried on, the business is a small business at the test time only if its annual turnover for the current year is $3,000,000 or less.
What is a small business operator ?
(3) A small business operator is an individual, body corporate, partnership, unincorporated association or trust that:
(a) carries on one or more small businesses; and
(b) does not carry on a business that is not a small business. >>
Notice that at Paragraph 1 it states that it can only be a small business if it is a BUSINESS in the first instance (and if it's turnover is $3 million or less). That is, it must be a business to begin with before even considering whether it is a small business or not. Therefore the WTBTS Australian Branch are clearly identifying themselves as a business in the letters referred to on this thread.
There is no definition in the act to identify what a Business is therefore it would revert to the common law definition. They might argue that they are only a business in relation to the Privacy Act but they can't because they have to identify as a business (under common law) before they can identify themselves as a small business under the Act.
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How many of the 1.006 alleged abusers will be investigated by Police?
by Listener inthe commission has the names of 1,006 alleged abusers within australian congregations since 1950. some will have died and others will already have been prosecuted but the branch did not report any of these allegations to police.. the terms of reference for the royal commission is more about redress for the victims but that can include criminal prosecution although they are more focused on financial compensation.. however, now that they have the names of 1,006 potential criminals there is some responsibility to see that they are dealt with criminally.
it appears to be in their authority to have cases followed through by referring them for further investigation.
this is clear because the commissioner has recently reported that to date, they have done so in 493 cases identified within the scope of their commission.
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Listener
The Commission has the names of 1,006 alleged abusers within Australian congregations since 1950. Some will have died and others will already have been prosecuted but the Branch did not report any of these allegations to Police.
The terms of reference for the Royal Commission is more about redress for the Victims but that can include criminal prosecution although they are more focused on financial compensation.
However, now that they have the names of 1,006 potential criminals there is some responsibility to see that they are dealt with criminally. It appears to be in their authority to have cases followed through by referring them for further investigation. This is clear because the Commissioner has recently reported that to date, they have done so in 493 cases identified within the scope of their Commission. Just to be clear, that is 493 cases overall and not confined to the JW religion.
It is quite possible that they are waiting until their final conclusions of the current case hearing of the JW religion before they recommend further investigation of JW individuals.
The fact remains that neither the organization or the individuals would know if or who will be investigated from the list of 1,006 individuals.
There is so much coming out of this commission but I am wondering what sort of effect this knowledge has on both the organization and accused abusers. It is going to affect the congregations and they will not be able to ignore it even though many are avoiding news reports.
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Australian kingdom hall bomber from 1980's arrested!!
by Witness 007 infinally the casula kingdom hall bomber who killed one and injured 13 is arrested in 2015!!
d.n.a evidence convicted him.
the hall was totally destroyed in i think 1983.
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Royal Commission convened for now, but Jackson is an asshole
by umbertoecho ini have just finished listening to this man jackson.
i remember him well.
he is twisting things around as much as he is allowed.
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Listener
A real cool and a company man. He demonstrated that he couldn't even think for himself.
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The Australian Royal Commission hearings on the JWs handling of child abuse begins here in the US later today. It will be streamed.
by AndersonsInfo inthe royal commission hearing starting on monday, july 27, 2015 - australian day and date - (and it could go on until august 7th depending on how many witnesses testify) regarding jehovah's witnesses handling of child abuse is supposed to be streamed.. it could be that the hearing will only be audio not video although we were informed it will be streamed.
we'll find out in a few hours.. i live in the central time zone of the us and right now here it is sunday, 3: 45 pm.
in sydney, australia, it is 15 hours ahead of us.
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Listener
There's a 25 page report available now with the opening submission from 'the senior council assisting'.
You can access by going to the Royal Commission link and it is under the Opening Address.
Most notable from this address is the following statement
70. This case study will consider whether the practice of the Jehovah’s Witnesses Church of not reporting allegations of child sexual abuse to secular authorities potentially exposes members of the Jehovah’s Witness Church to criminal liability for concealment of serious indictable offences under s 316 of the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) and failure to disclose sexual offences against minors under s 327 of the Crimes Act 1958 (Vic). The case study will consider the interaction of these offences with the confessional privilege provided for in s 127 of the Evidence Act 1995 (Cth), and replicated in legislation in force in New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania and the Northern Territory.
In many ways this Commission is able to demand so much more from the organization than any Court Case that they may face. We've seen what happened just recently when the lawyers requested specific information and documents, they haven't been able to do this here and can't simply ignore the requests..
They've also been able to question the JWs in a way that would not be seen in court. From what I saw at no stage was there any JW lawyer able to step in and say that any line of questioning was unreasonable.
The Commission goes even further by asking the JWs what they personally feel about a situation, policy or matter and guilt them when it is clear that there procedures have been inadequate.
It is proving to be a moral blood bath for the organization.