Listener

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  39

  Hello, I'm new here too!

  by redpilltwice in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi everybody, 1st post here.

  20 years jw, elder for 6 years, regular pioneer for 3 years, have always been following the 2012 candace conti abuse case with much interest, especially since the case suddenly disappeared from www.watchtower.com's news section (thanks brother j. r. brown, office of public information, because it led me to "worldly" websites for more info), leading to more and more dissatisfaction , leading to jwfacts, jwsurvey, ad1914, wtdocuments etc., leading to my awakening about 4 months ago, now fading faster and faster to zero meetings and zero field service...and you know what?

  it feels good!.

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  Listener

  Welcome RedPillTwice.

  Good to hear that the guys who have spent so much time maintaining their websites are proving to be a good source of information.
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  41

  If JWs were to change their name what would they change it to?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  was it 1931 when they adopted jehovah's witnesses?

  (at the time with lower case w) isn't it about time now they changed name again?

  i mean everything else is changing why not the name!

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  Listener

  Jehovah's Workers.

  However FDS Workers might be more appropriate. It goes better with their new look commercial Kingdom Halls.
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  21

  WTBTS Submissions to Royal Commission on abuse: The response document in FULL

  by JWchange in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  it is not obvious if someone has already put the responses and excuses to the findings of the royal commission, by watchtower on this forum somewhere, sorry if it is already posted.

  click on the link below, and scroll down to 'submissions' near bottom of page and you can download the full document.

  if this link doesn't work.

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  Listener

  Just re-reading the WTBTS response to the RC submission and wanted to add these thoughts.

  There appears to be no Term of Reference that requires the Commission to investigate the “shunning” of adults.

  In the submission the RC does not limit 'shunning' to adults, yet the WTBTS limits it's discussion to adult shunning and concludes that it has no bearing on the matter. Children are baptized from a very young age.

  Like organisations in the secular arena, the procedures and practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses have been improved and changed over the last 27 years in an endeavour to better respond to and alleviate the impact of child sexual abuse.

  They need to explain how their procedures and practices have improved and proof of this. They won't because they will first need to admit how their practices were wrong. They are not being helpful to the Commission by avoiding this.

  If the Commission’s views are to be respected around the world, as they undoubtedly will and should be, it is of the utmost importance that those reading the Commission’s report and recommendations understand that its approach to the universal problem of child sexual abuse is free of any perception that the findings and recommendations it makes are antithetical to the religious beliefs and practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

  The word antithetical means direct or unequivocal opposition

  So much for neutrality. They are trying to influence the commission here by suggesting that they will not have respect by World standards if they oppose the practices and beliefs instituted by the WTBTS in handling Child Abuse.

  A major role of the RC is investigating and assessing the responses from organizations and it would prove pointless if they didn't include in their findings the shortcomings of institutions/organizations..

  The faith is not an agency or instrumentality of government entrusted with the responsibility for the supervision and care of children.

  No, instead, they have apparently been selected by Jesus by appointing the FDS and as those taking the lead, have a christian responsibility to care for children. A minor point that they choose to ignore in their submission. If they do not make these things clear to the Commission then they are not fully co-operating and clearly do not intend these higher authorities to provide assistance with helping them to improve.

  Further, congregation members are free to report such matters to the secular authorities and many have done so, as is apparent from information provided to the Commission.

  The evidence that so few cases were reported shows that some feel that they are not free at all, rather that there is a reluctance to report.

  This is up to Page 74.

  There is a lot that was said about the two witness rule but a new thought came to me.

  The vast majority of JWs are disfellowshipped because they have been found not to have sufficiently repented.

  The general procedure is that the Elders first investigate a matter and if they feel there is sufficient evidence they will hold a JC with 3 Elders. Why 3 elders? They use the same principle of 2 or more witnesses, so that 'where there are two or more witnesses any wrongdoing can be firmly established.

  However, from there the Elders determine whether the person is repentant or not. In most cases this is a judgmental decision as there is little or no physical evidence that can be presented. Repentance is a spiritual condition and cannot be physically witnessed. The repentance does not take place in front of the Elders, it is a private matter between God and the individual.

  Although there are two or more witnesses (Elders) at the JC in the instance of repentance there is not and cannot be two physical witnesses. So in regards to this cumulative sin they choose to apply this witness rule in a completely different way.

  If they applied the same logic to determining whether a person is guilty of the sin of not repenting to the original sin then two physical witnesses are not required. All that is required is the same elders making a personal judgement as to whether the original sin took place or not and just as the matter of repentance can be established in this way, so can the original sin.

  
  
  
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  16

  Geoffrey Jackson and the Australian Royal Commission's timing of events

  by Tenacious in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm not sure why i was thinking this but does anyone else find it an incredibly rare coincidence that geoffrey jackson just so happened to be in australia attending to his father when the arc happen to be at the exact stage for him to be deposed as a witness?

  what are the chances of him being in the country at that precise moment?.

  divine intervention?

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  Listener

  It is an amazing coincidence.

  I believe that they could have called Jackson to the RC even if he had not been in Australia (as he is still officially Australian) but I don't think they initially understood the significance of his position until things were revealed and due to the instant communications they were able to receive from ex JWs.

  Things just came together perfectly. Even the fact that these days the internet can be used to send messages and infomation instantly and that ex JWs took advantage of this as well as the Commission making themselves available to receive them.

  Cardinal Pell relocated from Sydney to Rome around Feb 2014. He has been called to the RC and now says he is ill and asked to be heard via video link. McLellan refused his request and postponed his hearing date.

  It would appear that the more a witness shows a reluctance to attend the more the Commission is determined to hear them, which is commonsense as it raises the question of what they are trying to hide.

  Jackson and his supporters went even further than trying to avoid attendance for compassionate reasons. They claimed he had nothing to contribute whereas the Commission were aware enough by this stage that the claims were untrue.

  Recently I re-read some of the transcript in regards to the Victorian (a State of Australia) Inquiry into the Handling of Child Abuse by Religious and other Organizations which was held in 2013 and the one that Seven Unthank was involved in. It didn't compare in any shape or form to the current RC and probably helped to make the WTBTS pretty much complacent about the whole thing. In comparison they would have had no idea what was about to hit them.

  Reading the latest submission/response from the WTBTS demonstrates how stunned and bewildered they were about the whole hearing. They rejected all the claims, accused the commission of going outside its point of reference, belittled those involved in the Commission and were very reluctant to concede anything. In doing so they defied their own rules of neutrality - respect and submission for the higher authorities and not meddling in influencing changes to laws (as detailed in the April 2016 Watchtower).

  I think they even said in their submission that it was obvious that the Commission were allowing themselves to be influenced by ex-JWs. Which of course they were, how else do they get both sides of the story? But there is a difference with being influenced and undue influence. I can't remember how accurate I am with this point though as I've only read it once and it was a very long document.

  It's not just co-incidence for all this because the WTBTS have only themselves to blame. The Commission has shown itself to be very proficient and dedicated in what they are doing.

  What puzzles me more than anything is in relation to Angus Stewart SC. He was only admitted as a Barrister in NSW in 2011 and appointed to Senior (formelly Queen's) Counsel in 2014, probably enabling him to hold the senior position he was in at the RC. As mentioned already, this Case Hearing 29 was far superior to the 2013 Victoria hearing and it was due to the Stewart's talent and dedication as well as the support given to him by the Hon Justice McLellan.
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  13

  Using your car in service and still the GB asking for money

  by life is to short in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i listen to dave ramsey while i work.

  he is that financial guy who hates debt.

  i agree with 90 percent of what he says.

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  Listener

  Life is too Short, that is a good point.

  For many JWs the extra costs that they meet personally would be amount to more than 10% of their income and for most pioneers it would be way more.
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  41

  If JWs were to change their name what would they change it to?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  was it 1931 when they adopted jehovah's witnesses?

  (at the time with lower case w) isn't it about time now they changed name again?

  i mean everything else is changing why not the name!

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  Listener

  Jehovah's Christians - JC's (Jesus Christ), the closest they could get to including Jesus within their name but still retaining the name Jehovah which is one of the few things that they believe separate themselves from other Christians.
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  142

  Governing Body Member Gerrit Loesch Must Eventually Take The Witness Stand In Child Molestation Lawsuits

  by frankiespeakin in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  with many more cases in the offing the zalkin lawfirm will press the issue again and again and force gerrit loesch to testify.

  what say you?.

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  Listener

  Vidiot - ..Therefore (the way I see it, anyway) setting a virtually foolproof precedent to beat the WTS in court in any future abuse-related cases in the US.
  The WT Legal Dept. would have to be staffed by morons not to have figured this out by now; the recent upticks in fund solicitation and property sales can't be a coincidence.

  The Lawyers are now aware of their weak points. The WTBTS will now be paying out more even in settling cases.
• 
  62

  Umbertoecho here.

  by umbertoecho in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  hello people.. i'm tired and a bit sick at the moment but i can't let anyone think that this is going to go away.... i am able to tell you a few things in order to prevent any confusion in the minds of those who are thinking that nothing will come of this arc;that nothing will effect the wtbts in america and other places.. i have been there and given my testimony.

  helen milroy and her assistants were there along with another group of people who are there to lend assistance if you crack up at any time during or after the hearing.

  i did not crack up but can see how this happens.. security is tight and anonymity is sacred to them as they want to protect all who come forward.

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  Listener

  Hope you get well soon Umbertoecho.

  Well done on getting through this and I don't doubt the Commission were thankful for your participation. Your efforts will have a long lasting benefit, not just here in Australia but for other countries as well.

  Umbertoecho - I found out I am being "researched already" by WT as of yesterday 5th January 2016.

  It's hard to believe the depths that they will sink to.
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  75

  Have we become what we despise so much?

  by Tenacious in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the majority of members who tend to join this forum have been hurt possibly even traumatized sometimes to the point of wanting to end their lives.

  upon joining the forum, new members are welcomed with open arms, welcome messages start pouring in, "likes" are freely given, a false sense of security is promoted where a member is free to speak his mind without having to worry about the wt gestapo.

  again, similar to how potential converts are welcomed and "love bombed" upon entering a kh for the first time.

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  Listener

  You have some valid points tenacious, however we generally don't love bomb people then expect to brainwash them into our own way of thinking and shun them when they don't.
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  13

  Governing Body Member Geoffrey Jackson's Empathy For Survivors Of Child Abuse Hypocritical

  by Brokeback Watchtower in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  so says the royal commission.

  which we all can agree.

  his expressed sympathy is a hollow sham and it is the same way with all the governing body's expressions of love and concern for all loyal member captured by their organization into servitude.

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  Listener

  This is the wtbts response

  >>Response to suggested findings on Mr Jackson’s stated empathy on survivors

  11.69 Counsel Assisting’s suggested finding F65:

  F65 Mr Jackson’s failure to have read or be familiar with the testimony of the survivor

  witnesses yet to have read or otherwise familiarised himself with the testimony of Jehovah’s

  Witness witnesses belies his stated empathy for the survivors and his stated recognition of

  the importance of their perspectives.

  This suggested finding is completely untrue and should be amended to

  reflect what Mr Geoffrey Jackson himself explained, as elaborated on in

  paragraphs 9.353 and 10.6:

  I wasn’t aware of the fact that I would be called before the Commission ...

  I haven’t lived in Australia for 36 years, and I haven’t certainly had a chance to

  look through the files ... The reason I came here was to care for my ailing

  father, and that has taken a lot of my time.<<

  The commission found that his empathy was not genuine and they proved it from his own actions yet they want to argue about it (to the higher authorities).

  What stands out is the org holds JC's all the time to determine whether someone is truelly repentant or not. There is virtually no evidence and definitely no arguing back.

  His excuse shows that he didn't think it was important enough. His request for the commission to pass on his sympathy was completely ungenuine and simply a public display at pretending to show some concern. There is nothing preventing him from reading about her case after the hearing and even sending her a personal letter, that would be a true christian act.