Posts by Listener

64

April WT is out. Blood, FDS, moses & crazy stuff...

by bohm in

jw
friends

the april wt is out, get it while you can.

what caught my attention was the first article.

some quotes:.

Listener

Another striking difference is that Moses was the mediator for the nation whereas the GB says the majority of JWs have no mediator.

12

Remnant Check by WTS

by Band on the Run in

there is a debate about the nature of the eucharist once consecrated, a church mouse appears and runs off with the host.

is it still christ's body?.

when i was a witness, only a literal handful could be annointed.

Because they are spirit anointed it is only between them and God. In past times they were not to be judged by others in the congregation although in practice they are put under questioning by the elders. They are given no special role to play. They have no special attributes or greater amount of holy spirit, only a share of a different kind and that is the gift itself.

45

Only the Governing Body is the FDS

by Listener in

i hadn't noticed this before but the governing body is actually saying that they only are the faithful & discreet slave.. watchtower 2009 6/15 para 18 .

similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class.

they make up the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

Listener

The increase in numbers of partakers/anointed has left the org with a problem. (I personally suspect also that a huge dispportionate amount of these are females) This is apparent by their use of the term 'genuine' anointed in their more recent articles. They are not able to determine who they think are genuine and who are not. There would be many JWs in the congregations that see partakers and know they couldn't possibly be genuine.

The problem they have is how can they be instructing all JWs to follow a FDS when no-one knows who is a member of that class or not. It becomes unsupportable. So to this day it appears they have put the focus on the Governing Body but other than hinting at the idea that they have 'special talents' or are 'gifted' they have not come up with biblical support for this transition.

Here is an Watchtower (71 12/15) article on the formation of the Governing Body. I have highlighted the more intersting parts.

"HOW

THEGOVERNINGBODYCAMETO

EXIST

How did this governing body make its appearance in recent times? Evidently under the direction of Jehovah God and his Son Jesus Christ. According to the facts available, the governing body became associated with the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania. C. T. Russell was patently of that governing body back there in the last quarter of the nineteenth century. Being fully dedicated to God through Christ, he set himself to apply his time, energy, abilities, wealth and influence to defending God’s inspired Word and spreading its message. To that end he began publishing Zion’sWatchTower back there in July of 1879, believing, as he said in its columns, that this had Jehovah’s backing, and hence there would be no solicitation for money. He manifested the qualifications of an overseer as set out in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9 and accordingly he was requested by the congregation of Christian Bible students at Allegheny to serve as its pastor or spiritual shepherd. Five years later Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society was incorporated and served as an “agency” to minister spiritual food to thousands of sincere persons seeking to know God and to understand his Word and to come into relationship with him through Christ.

Dedicated, baptized, anointed Christians became associated with that Society at headquarters in Pennsylvania. Whether on the Board of Directors or not, they rendered themselves available for special work of the “faithful and discreet slave” class. They aided in the feeding and directing of the slave class, and thus a governing body made its appearance. This was evidently under the guidance of Jehovah’s invisible active force or holy spirit. Also, under the direction of the Head of the Christian congregation, Jesus Christ the Son of God. True, the members of that governing body were not directly appointed by the Lord Jesus Christ. For that matter, not all the members of the governing body associated with the Jerusalem congregation in the first century were thus directly appointed. How, then, were those “elders” of the Jerusalem congregation who were not numbered among the twelve apostles made members of the governing body? Evidently by appointment of the original twelve apostles, acting under the guidance of Jehovah’s holy spirit.

This is illustrated by the action of those twelve apostles when appointing Stephen and Philip and five other men to take care of certain business of the Jerusalem congregation. (Acts 6:1-8) Also, the apostle Paul pointed out in his remarks to the elders of the Ephesus congregation that the overseers of God’s flock of spiritual sheep were appointed by God’s holy spirit. (Acts 20:28) Thus, too, even though there were no apostles of Christ on hand in the nineteenth century, God’s holy spirit must have been operative toward the formation of the governing body for his anointed remnant of the “faithful and discreet slave” class. The facts speak for themselves. There came on the scene a body of anointed Christians who accepted and undertook the responsibilities of governing the affairs of Jehovah’s dedicated, baptized, anointed people who were following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ and endeavoring to fulfill the work stated in Jesus’ prophecy at Matthew 24:45-47. Facts speak louder than words. The governing body is there. Thankfully Jehovah’s Christian witnesses know and assert that this is no one-man religious organization, but that it has a governing body of spirit-anointed Christians."

18

Memorial observance It isnt about Jesus at all!

by 1badmutha in

we all know that jesus is a pretty much-overlooked figure by the wbts.

they refuse to celebrate his birth for a number of convoluted reasons, which i refuse to argue.

but, it is curious that they celebrate the death of christ.

Listener

David- It is only through the shed blood of Jesus that our sins are forgiven (1 John 1:7). Jesus died for us to saves and reconcile us to his God and Father, Jehovah.

That is right. It is part of the covenant arrangement. The problem is that the org says the great crowd is not part of this covenant arrangement. If you don't participate in the memorial how is it that this arrangement applies to you?

45

Only the Governing Body is the FDS

by Listener in

i hadn't noticed this before but the governing body is actually saying that they only are the faithful & discreet slave.. watchtower 2009 6/15 para 18 .

similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class.

they make up the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

Listener

I'm starting to get it now. So the question is

Who appointed the Governing Body?

I've read it a few times on this forum but didn't appreciate the intricies of this question and why it was an important one to ask any JW. They (the governing body) can only answer that question by admitting that they have appointed themselves. The only claim they are able to make is that the FDS was appointed by Jesus and the the overseers/elders are appointed by the FDS.

There is no scripture that is able to support their own appointment.

58

Why have all predictions about END TIMES been proved false?

by Terry in

) on gen. 15:13 (luther martin, date setters, guardian of truth, sept. 15, 1994).

(luther martin, date setters, guardian of truth, sept. 15, 1994).

Listener

You make a good point Ding. If it could be calculated from the bible and specifically from the Hebrew Scriptures then Jesus, the angels and Satan would all have known the dates but Jesus said no-one but God knew and I believe that includes the time appointed for Jesus' return.

45

Only the Governing Body is the FDS

by Listener in

i hadn't noticed this before but the governing body is actually saying that they only are the faithful & discreet slave.. watchtower 2009 6/15 para 18 .

similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class.

they make up the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

Listener

I hadn't noticed this before but the Governing Body is actually saying that they only are the Faithful & Discreet Slave.

Watchtower 2009 6/15 Para 18

Similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class. They make up the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. These spirit-anointed men oversee the Kingdom work and the spiritual feeding program. As in the first century, though, the Governing Body does not consult with each individual member of the slave class before making decisions.

The first sentence above states - 'a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class'....'the Governing Body'.

This can only mean that the rest (or majority of anointed) DO NOT represent the Faithful & Discreet Slave.

The definition of represent from the free dictionary includes

5. To describe or put forward (a person or thing) as an embodiment of a specified quality.

6.

a. To serve as the official and authorized delegate or agent for.

b. To act as a spokesperson for.

7. To serve as an example of: The museum had several paintings representing the artist's early style.

8. To be the equivalent of.

The previous paragraph in the Watchtower gives their basis for making this claim.

To illustrate: The Scriptures at times speak of “the congregation” as taking certain action in handling judicial matters. (Matt. 18:17) In real terms, though, it is only the elders who take this action in their capacity as representatives of the congregation. The elders do not contact all members of the congregation to ask their various opinions before they make a decision. Theocratically, they perform the role that they have been assigned; they act on behalf of the whole congregation.

.Matt 18:17 says " If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector." The JWs must interpret this to mean that only the heads of the congregation would have been involved but don't actually say so. In the above quote they use the idea "In real terms" which is a bit obscure but could easily be viewed as - well they used the congregation back then but in reality today we would only use the elders of the congregation.

There is so little basis, if any at all, to support their position of the Governing Body over anyone.

Even if that parable of the FD & S was correctly interpreted as a prophecy it does not say there will be another class that will represent the FD & S .

40

J-dub elders throwing a wrench in funeral services for my nephew

by mimimimi in

jw
friends

as i said in my earlier post, my nephew took his own life yesterday evening.

my sister is a die-hard jw and this religion is her comfort more than ever right now, so she accepts everything they throw at her.

the elders will meet this evening and decide whether they will allow a memorial service at the kh.

Listener

I read a couple of the posts and I can't read anymore, I am just so saddened. The elders should look very closely at their conscience together with the bible. The wages for sin is death, what allows them to judge outside this arrangement? What don't they understand, don't respect and don't acknowledge from God's arrangements? If a JW have asked them to do a memorial in the KH then they could respect this and could deliver a fine witness if they so chose. They could reflect on the future that may be in store for the deceased and the hardships facing people who live in this world. All would be able to attend regardless of being disfellowshipped. Disfellowshipped persons are allowed to attend any KH meeting.

I am so sorry that the funeral arrangements must be just an added difficulty and demonstration of hatred in what is already such a horrible time.

50

JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization?

by MrMonroe in

my wife and i had stopped going to meetings in april; in december of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the witness couple who had "brought me into the truth".

we had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about why we had left.

had we been stumbled?

Listener

SD-7 How to reconcile a lack of humility with the alternative of accepting the 'slave' as essentially an entity worthy of unquestioning faith on the same level as Christ is beyond me.

This issue does play on the conscience. But I wonder if there is a requirement to have trust and faith in the FDS? The bible says that children should be in subjection and obey their parents, a wife to her husband and all of us to Jesus and Jehovah. We are also required to have trust and faith in Jesus and Jehovah but we have not been told to have this same committment to anyone else. It may or may not exsist in our relationships with any person or organisation.

For instance, a child may be unlucky enough to have cruel and unjust parents but the requirement to obey them still exists and it certainly does show a lot of humility to accept this arrangement. But God does not require that child to trust or have faith in their parents and it is unlikely that they would. In this case they are not going against God's word.

If the org says that all JWs belong to them where is the biblical requirement that they trust or have faith in them?

58

Why have all predictions about END TIMES been proved false?

by Terry in

) on gen. 15:13 (luther martin, date setters, guardian of truth, sept. 15, 1994).

(luther martin, date setters, guardian of truth, sept. 15, 1994).

Listener

Why have all predictions about END TIMES been proved false?

The way that question has been posed is very clever, to break it down

Why - there must be a reason and it needs to be examined carefully

All - Not just once, not just twice, but many times

Predictions - they will deny this but that is what it is

False - the opposite of THE TRUTH

The first and most obvius answer that comes to mind is that it shouldn't never have been done in the first place (or even again and again)