Great points, lwt, and you understand my personal context. I think that in another six months I will have learned so much about the Watchtower that it will be difficult for anyone to win an argument based on sheer fact and logic other than by simply denying that what is written in the historical records (most of them by the Watchtower itself) is factual or just refusing to hear. Somewhere in the body of knowledge about the Society and what it has said and done over the years will be something that, as you say, can create a sore spot that opens up the conversation. That doesn't mean that leaving will be easy, I understand. It only means that the need to leave will be evident.
Nickolas
JoinedPosts by Nickolas
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55
Truth - How obvious does it need to be?
by Nickolas inhey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
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55
Truth - How obvious does it need to be?
by Nickolas inhey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
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Nickolas
I think we all agree that there is truth in that statement that ALL people should be treated correctly, with equla rights and such, BUT that notion is NOT shared the the WHOLE of the world, nor was it shared ALWAYS in our civilization ( western) and to even say that it is a "true statment" is meaningless but it is no more true than any other.
That is not a truth but a value or perhaps a principle, PSac. Truth is factual. Truth is observable. Truth is whether or not a thing was said or a thing was done. Truth in the context I'm using is black or white with no shades of gray. Truth or falsehood. This is what the WTBTS says it is, but this is what historical fact says it is.
one might argue that Western Society merely hides their illogical views far better than preceding societies, no?
Absolutely, sab. Western Society still allows in illogical views. The former president of the United States, for example, invaded Iraq because God told him to. I get your point. Evidence demonstrates truth only to those who are not disposed to ignore it because it interferes with what they want to believe.
One can argue about the truth in "surival of the fittest".
Survival of the fittest is a dynamic. It doesn't represent truth or falsehood, right or wrong. This conversation is taking some interesting turns.
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55
Truth - How obvious does it need to be?
by Nickolas inhey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
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Nickolas
The Watchtower runs free to deceive millions, yes, but it is not a secular society. The Watchtower doesn't seek evidence for truth, it seeks evidence that supports its doctrines and teachings, which is not at all the same. It will not, in fact, hear any evidence that contradicts its claims and forbids its membership from seeing it. That's not my point. My comparative point is that Western Society (and by that I mean those founded in Europe and the new world but the same thing could also be said about other developed, non-sectarian countries) weighs claims of truth on evidence.
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55
Truth - How obvious does it need to be?
by Nickolas inhey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
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Nickolas
Thank you, pirata. Coming to be familiar with Cognitive Dissonance theory is another contribution of this board.
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55
Truth - How obvious does it need to be?
by Nickolas inhey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
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Nickolas
What you're trying to argue about is not clear, sab. What I'm talking about is not rules telling you what you can believe and it certainly is not about censorship (except maybe a reference to how the Watchtower censors information from getting to its membership). I'm talking about evidence leading to a conclusion of truth much like truth is determined in a court of law. I'm talking about the prepoderance of evidence in existence against the Watchtower and how difficult it is to come to any other conclusion that it is not what it says it is.
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55
Truth - How obvious does it need to be?
by Nickolas inhey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
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Nickolas
yeah, and this one's even wearing a crucifix. Wow. A hottie who's maybe also an apostate.
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55
Truth - How obvious does it need to be?
by Nickolas inhey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
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Nickolas
This is debatable isn't it? Many "westerners" believe wholeheartedly in, and staunchly defend, fanciful myths and legends without a shred of evidence.
Not if it is secular, sab. Society is the sum of it members, not its members themselves. And it is set up according to sets of laws and rules, like a constitution, forged by secularists. Most secular western societies separate state from religion and it is the state that determines what is true and what is not. It is when secular society is infected by religious beliefs, such as what we see happening in some places, that truth without evidence takes on any kind of credibility.
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55
Truth - How obvious does it need to be?
by Nickolas inhey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
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Nickolas
Interesting advertising links to this board ... I wonder what my Witness wife would think if she walked in right now
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55
Truth - How obvious does it need to be?
by Nickolas inhey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
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Nickolas
Hey folks. I've been on this board for just under seven months and I thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things Watchtower, and quite a few other things too. Not all of it was on here but it was through this board I've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts. I think it was OnTheWayOut who recommended a few books to me, including Combatting Cult Mind Control by Hassan and Captives of a Concept by Cameron. I read Hassan a few months ago and I'm halfway through Captives and wonder how much more convinced I'm going to be in the months ahead that the Watchtower, to put it mildly, is not what it represents itself to be.
The Society says that it represents Truth. In secular Western society there is only one test for truth, and that is evidence. When society is offended by something someone has done, it seeks redress from that person and quite often the accused person proclaims his innocence. Society gives the accused the benefit of the doubt but nevertheless seeks the truth through evidence. Same goes for scientific theories. They are also subject to scrutiny based on the evidence in support or not in support of the theory. It all comes down to evidence.
I haven't even got to reading Crisis of Conscience yet (on its way from freeminds.org) but the evidence I have already seen weighted against the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is more than a little compelling. It's damning. And most of it isn't even new evidence. I was totally ignorant of all these things when I started studying with the Witnesses in 1974 and it was the failure of 1975 that got my attention and precipitated my adios in 1976. But had I known half of the stuff I know now I wouldn't have come near the Witnesses in the first place. But it also leaves me just a little incredulous that intelligent people who are not otherwise blackmailed by the threat of disfellowshipping and shunning stay in. The only reason could be the Society simply forbids their membership either from seeing the evidence in a logical light or from seeing it at all. I don't know which is scarier.
People who are not yet baptised are visiting this board, in addition to many who are baptised. Maybe there are those who are considering getting involved with the Watchtower, but I haven't met any of those. Regardless, those who are not yet convinced that fleeing from the Watchtower is the right thing to do maybe just haven't seen enough evidence. There's no shortage.
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Anyone into fishing?
by Nickolas incheck this out.
the farther into the video the more insane it gets.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3bf0whvsnk&feature=player_embedded.
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Nickolas
I learned to love fly fishing during five summers in northern BC. Nothing like latching onto a big Gerrard on a 6 or 7 weight rod. In the better rivers I used to carry a sawed off Remington 870 as backup for the canister of pepper spray I had hanging around my neck but never had occasion to use either. Caught lots of great rainbows, though, and a number of enormous bull trout. During the winter we's use flies through the ice. Caught lots but just not the same.
I was amazed by this video. Never saw or heard of anything like it.