fulltimestudent

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Posts by fulltimestudent

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  57

  The Bible Gods Word or Mans

  by azor in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i remember studying this book years ago and how it impacted my belief system.

  i no longer believe the bible is god's word.

  however i do have a couple of lingering questions on this subject.

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  fulltimestudent

  This is a response to the part of azor's request for thoughts on the statement that:

  "The Bible for the first time introduces a singular monotheistic god."

  I think it is more honest to say that, the proto-jews, believed in one god (yahweh) who was their god, and who they considered to the "true god," that is, a 'real' god as opposed to 'unreal,' or 'false' gods who did not really exist. A re-reading of first Kings ch.18 regarding the contest between Elijah and the priests of Baal surely demonstrates that.

  The texts claim that this 'real' god revealed himself to Israel's forbears, and continually demonstrated his 'realness' through his dealings with the one family who worshipped him as their own god.

  However, that idea is not supported by facts. Professor Mark Damen (Utah State University) calls attention to a wider possibility.

  The concept of monotheism has deep roots in Western Civilization, reaching as far back in time as the New Kingdom of ancient Egypt, well before the formation of the ancient state of Israel or the advent of Christianity. - Reference: http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320hist&civ/chapters/10AKHEN.htm

  He is (as that page makes clear) talking about the "new" religious teachings of Akhenaten, an Egyptian Pharaoh of the fourteenth century BCE, likely before the formation of any Israelite nation.

  To what extent there was a prior discussion is unknown, as is the spread of the idea after the reinstatement of orthodoxy in Egypt.

  We also know the concept of a supreme god was spreading among Greek thinkers at the time of Plato, that quite possibly primed the way for the success of early Christianity.

  
  

  
  
  
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  57

  The Bible Gods Word or Mans

  by azor in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i remember studying this book years ago and how it impacted my belief system.

  i no longer believe the bible is god's word.

  however i do have a couple of lingering questions on this subject.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  fulltimestudent

  azor: The Bible for the first time introduces a singular monotheistic god that exists outside of time and space.

  May I take the second point first, i.e. that god exists outside of time and space.
  

  What does it mean when someone claims, that there is a being that lives outside of time or space?

  The concept is dependent first on being able to demonstrate the existence of such a being, because the problems associated with that being existing in a empty universe, in which measurable time does not exist have only become apparent with our contemporary expansion of knowledge about the universe.

  But isn't the concept, that god lives outside of time and space, predicated on a belief (faith) that this god actually exists, but we now start to move in circles as the existence of a creative god is very difficult to demonstrate.

  This question was discussed on TED (though I've lost the link) and I really liked the way that the question was asked:

  How can God exist beyond space and time?

  
  I'm trying to make sense of this "existence" outside space and time. How can something , anything exist yet not exist in space-time? Something completely disconnected from length, width, height, or point in time....

  Is this a "truth" that is beyond human comprehension? For maybe this may be one the "truths" that escapes the human intellect. However there are also non-sense statements that require filtering, I believe that existence beyond space and time is one statement that requires filtering.

  
  Does God pop in and out of existence along with virtual particles? Or is God tightly curled up( about a Planck length?) in one or more dimensions of a Calabi-Yau manifold? Or is this existence as useful as the Cosmic Peanut Butter Theory?

  
  Asking if it's possible means nothing, however. The question to ask is, what makes anyone say this? What is the evidence for such assertions? Show me how does anyone got to this statement.

  
  Please as you deploy your arguments don't conflate suppositions with explanations, for these are not interchangeable. Just because it can be imagined, does not make it valid, or even explanatory.
  And no scripture as proof.("Behold, heaven and the highest heavens cannot contain Thee... (1 Kings 8:27)) etc

  The above questions were asked by someone who doubted

  Another aspect of this discussion involves the way the ancients thought of time. Is it identical to our view.

  A useful discussion by a believer is at this link:

  http://www.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/library/TynBull_2001_52_2_02_Blocher_TimeEternity.pdf

  And finally, I ask anyone considering the question to ask how the people of that time (of scripture writing) understood time and eternity?
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  23

  "Moses, by far the meekest and most humble person" ??

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  seriously, how can it be ok for someone to say of themselves that they are "by far the meekest and most humble person" on the earth?.

  numbers 12:3 'now the man moses was by far the meekest of all the men on the face of the earth'.

  yes, moses was so humble that he told everyone about it!!?!.

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  fulltimestudent

  freemindfade
  fulltimestudent, excellent work and excellent example of eisegesis. thank you.

  
  

  Thank you fmf, for attempting to praise my amateurish attempts at scholarship. Unfortunately, I must refuse the praise, implicit in your attribution of eisegesis to me.

  Why? Because, aside from your precise intention, the fact is that I am only repeating prior scholarship.

  For example, in this book, Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times, by Donald B. Redford,
  

  (Princeton University Press 1992)

  
  Or, this one: Out of the Desert: Archeology and the Exodus/Conquest Narratives, William H. Steibing Jr., Prometheus Books, 1989

  there are objective assessments that throw doubt on the tradition of the Exodus.

  
  

  There remains however, one key question. What were the political/cultural/religious implications of the political occupation of the area by the Egyptians?

  
  

  The Bible offers no comments on the possibilities implicit in a political occupation. Again, we should be asking why not?

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  
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  43

  Atheism

  by Jonathan Drake in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  recent events and book reads (one suggested by cofty i believe- thank you) have lead me to the only logical and acceptable conclusion:.

  there is no god.. simple logical reasoning: matter can neither me created or destroyed.

  so the amount of mass in the universe is constant.

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  fulltimestudent

  Depends! In Australia we had April Fools day, yesterday
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  7

  The book of daniel and the five Akkadian prophecies

  by bohm in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  there are two views on the book of daniel.

  according to the conservative jewish/christian view the book of daniel was written in mesopotamia under the babylonian conquest ca.

  according to the view of modern history the book was composed ca.

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  fulltimestudent

  Anyone looking for antecedents to Judeao-Christian fairy tales may find this Errdmans' publication,

  The Apocalyptic Imagination: An Introduction to Jewish Apocalyptic Literature, helpful. The author is John J.Collins an excellent Bible scholar.

  
  

  You can gain some idea of content through this preview:

  
  

  https://books.google.com.au/books?id=PxjNsMrzI-kC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=the+akkadian+prophecies&source=bl&ots=wRzIhaON_r&sig=_Iq2n_sM9dnHLygEWXtWX7v447w&hl=en&sa=X&ei=U1YcVejcKcXd8AW2-ICABQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=the%20akkadian%20prophecies&f=false

  
  
  

  
  
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  43

  Atheism

  by Jonathan Drake in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  recent events and book reads (one suggested by cofty i believe- thank you) have lead me to the only logical and acceptable conclusion:.

  there is no god.. simple logical reasoning: matter can neither me created or destroyed.

  so the amount of mass in the universe is constant.

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  fulltimestudent

  Aw gee, Clambake, in saying:

  I find going from Jehovah Witness to atheist really isn’t that big a jump. Both are incredibly arrogant.

  Shouldn't you have included Judeao-Christian thought?
  
  
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  43

  Atheism

  by Jonathan Drake in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  recent events and book reads (one suggested by cofty i believe- thank you) have lead me to the only logical and acceptable conclusion:.

  there is no god.. simple logical reasoning: matter can neither me created or destroyed.

  so the amount of mass in the universe is constant.

  1. 
  2. 
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  fulltimestudent

  Jonathon, welcome to reality.

  Thoughtful people have left records of similar journeys. Somewhere in my messy hard disc (or, was it the last one ?-grin) I have some information on Indian thinkers arriving at this same conclusion. I cant find that talk about it, but I can expound on a Chinese thinker's journey (a little further on in this post).

  During our long intellectual imprisonment within the grim gray walls of the giant watchtower, there were clearly defined limits to out thinking capacity, but paradoxically it was a certain Watchtower issue that led me to eventual freedom. That long forgotten issue discussed the hebrew word mezimbah, which the WT translated as 'thinking ability'. I came to prize that ability - a very dangerous thing in a totalitarian organisation, though I suggest that in practise, the WTS was not quite as totalitarian as we may think. Private thoughts were one thing, it seems, but what they feared was public discussion and probable ensuing dissension.

  So anyway, I also escaped.

  But back to my Chinese friends. In the first century CE, Wang Chong, for example, resisted orthodoxy and the sanctification of texts. He advocated developing a strong sense of scepticism, and maybe helped (along with others) free Chinese minds from dogma and tradition. Yang Zhu asked, "what is life for?" And, thought only two things were worth seeking - music and sex! And, since both good and bad men all die, he wrote, " Let us hasten to enjoy our present life. Why bother about what comes after death?"

  And, by the fourth century CE, while western thinking was wrapping itself in theocracy, Guo Xiang realised, " ... everything creates itself without the direction of any creator."

  Of course, there were other schools of thought in East Asian thinking, and some tendencies were toward mental enslavement, but the great tradition from the time of Kongzi and Mencius was toward scepticism.

  As a student of China, it's quite fascinating to see how Chinese political affairs are organised pragmatically, whereas western political thinking is organised on dogma.
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  23

  "Moses, by far the meekest and most humble person" ??

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  seriously, how can it be ok for someone to say of themselves that they are "by far the meekest and most humble person" on the earth?.

  numbers 12:3 'now the man moses was by far the meekest of all the men on the face of the earth'.

  yes, moses was so humble that he told everyone about it!!?!.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  fulltimestudent

  There is another connection between the early Israelites and their political overlords, the Egyptian Empire. This connection is still a popular pastime, particularly in Australia, where even the bethel brothers indulge with great pleasure.

  This pastime is imbibing a popular beverage known as "beer." We mostly associate drinking wine with the Bible, but the evidence is that in ancient Egypt beer was a common drink and most Egyptians drank it daily, and the early Israelites, whether they learned it from the Egyptians or not, the Israelites also liked a beer or two every day. In fact, Numbers 28: 7-10 commands that Yahweh had to be served his portion of beer (roughly equivalent to a modern six pack) each day. Which means that Yahweh would be able to drink me under the table.

  Here's a short overview from the Biblical Archeological Society:

  Reference: http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?Volume=36&ArticleID=4&Issue=5

  Did the Ancient Israelites Drink Beer?
  By Michael M. Homan
  
  Ancient Israelites, with the possible exception of a few teetotaling Nazirites and their moms, proudly drank beer—and lots of it. Men, women and even children of all social classes drank it. Its consumption in ancient Israel was encouraged, sanctioned and intimately linked with their religion. Even Yahweh, according to the Hebrew Bible, consumed at least half a hin of beer (approximately 2 liters, or a six-pack) per day through the cultic ritual of libation, and he drank even more on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:7–10). People who were sad were advised to drink beer to temporarily erase their troubles (Proverbs 31:6). Yet the Biblical authors also called for moderation. Several passages condemn those who consumed too much beer (Isaiah 5:11, 28:7; Proverbs 20:1, 31:4). The absence of beer defines a melancholy situation, according to Isaiah 24:9.

  
  

  ( I liked that reference to Isaiah 24:9, it's like a popular Aussie drinking song that's called, "The Pub with No Beer.")

  More in the next post.
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  23

  "Moses, by far the meekest and most humble person" ??

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  seriously, how can it be ok for someone to say of themselves that they are "by far the meekest and most humble person" on the earth?.

  numbers 12:3 'now the man moses was by far the meekest of all the men on the face of the earth'.

  yes, moses was so humble that he told everyone about it!!?!.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  fulltimestudent

  It must be clear to any thinking person (i.e. a person not blinded by faith) that the Exodus story is an origin myth, that is, the sort of heroic story that is told to explain the how a certain human society got its start. You can read about origin myths (sometimes also called foundation myths) in this Wikipedia entry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_myth

  In any of these mythical stories, there will be some elements of historical truth. Can we find anything truthful in the Exodus/Moses story. Yes, we can. It is simply that there is/was a connection between the ancient Egyptian Empire, a human society that was so well organised, that they were able to build the huge monuments of ancient Egypt.

  In contrast, the group of people that later became the Israelites and later still the Jews, were a barely organised group living in Palestine. Did some of them really travel to Egypt as described in the biblical myth? Actually, they did not have to, as the Egyptian empire came to them, by conquering Palestine.

  Here's a map of the Egyptian empire around the mid fifteenth century BCE.

  
  

  Reference: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Egypt_NK_edit.svg

  Jerusalem was not in existence at that time, but the Egyptian influence extended from the coast to the areas which later became the focus of Israelite mythology.

  Now think of this description of Moses in Acts 7:20-22 NIV.

  20 “At that time Moses was born, and he was no ordinary child.[a] For three months he was cared for by his family. 21 When he was placed outside, Pharaoh’s daughter took him and brought him up as her own son. 22 Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action.
  Footnote: Acts 7:20 Or was fair in the sight of God

  There is dispute over the time when Moses was born (if, indeed, there is any historical truth behind the story). The Watchtower publication, Aid to Bible Understanding (p.1180) suggest he was born around 1593 BCE. That date is suggested by the early Christian writer, Jerome. Bishop Ussher (he of the 6000 years idea), calculated 1571 BCE. But the Rabbinical Jewish scholars (subsequent to the destruction of the temple in 70CE) calculated that he lived between 1391 and 1271BCE.

  The date calculated by the Rabbinical scholars is interesting. Why? Because that would locate the Exodus events as being around the time of the huge religious crisis in Egypt caused by the monotheistical ideas of the Pharoah who changed his name to Akhenaten ( who died around 1336-1334 BCE). Here he is as represented in a plaque from that era, worshipping Aten.

  

  Reference: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Aten_disk.jpg

  and, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

  Does this explain Moses, educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians,

  denouncing the Bull worshipping Israelites? So difficult to prove but a possibility.

  Egyptologists also point out the similarity between Egyptian concepts of creation and Genesis ch 1.

  So Moses, meek or not meek, as the case may be, real or mythical serves to link teh Canaanite tribes who led a war that eventually gave them primacy in Canaan and led to the need for foundational myths, which, of course, when early Christianity was just another Jewish sect became embedded in a religion that became the main myth bearer of powerful European colonisers.
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  6

  Lee Kuan Yew, the founder of independent Singapore died this morning, aged 91.

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. social
  2. current

  overview of his life, from china central tv america:.

  http://www.cctv-america.com/2015/03/22/singapores-founding-pm-lee-kuan-yew-dies-at-91.

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  fulltimestudent

  Some more thoughts on Lee Kuan Yew.

  1. Toughness.

  Talking about himself, he once said in 1994:

  "Nobody doubts that if you take me on, I will put on knuckle-dusters and catch you in a cul-de-sac," he said. "If you think you can hurt me more than I can hurt you, try."

  A friend of mine (an Australian) was once elected by his university compatriots to negotiate with the SG government for a wage rise (they did not get it). In the end he had to meet with LKY personally and described it as the scariest experience of his life:

  A quote from a CBC NEWS Analysis: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/visionary-perhaps-but-singapore-s-lee-kuan-yew-was-not-democracy-s-friend-1.3008047

  In Singapore, Lee locked up opponents without trial, and used the courts to bankrupt critics and defamation suits to bully the international press into silence.

  In 1994, the New York Times issued a grovelling apology to avoid colossal damages after suggesting that the Lee family was one of Asia's political dynasties.

  Lee had insisted that his son became prime minister, which he is still, and his daughter-in-law head of Singapore's sovereign wealth fund not through nepotism, but because they just happened to be the best candidates.

  Publications that do not have local offices to sue have been braver, describing Singapore as "Disneyland with the death penalty" and "Pyongyang with broadband."

  But the final result can only be described as good. Singapore is prosperous, with GDP per capita in the top 5 in the world, and a well-educated citizenry. There are two universities in the top 50 list, and Singapore is considered a leader in innovation.

  The Brits left colonial Singapore in a poverty-stricken condition. Lee has left it prosperous.

  The social engineering programs of his government has been derided by the west, but has produced an ethnically diverse population that is however, homogenous and law-abiding, as Bungi Bill has pointed out. The streets of Australian cities are not particularly safe for a woman to walk in at night, but the streets of Singapore are safe for women to be out alone.

  Lee was also pragmatic.

  As Deng said, "A cat's color is unimportant, what you want a cat to do is to catch mice." (i.e get results). Both Singapore and China, are run on that operating principle.

  He was an anti-communist, but the structures of his People's Action Party ( as well as the Communist Party of China which is almost identical) are both based on Lenin's Vanguard Party as vehicles to gain power, stay in power and decide everything*.

  He could be biting in assessment, once informing Australians that they risked becoming, "The poor white trash of Asia."

  
  

  *that needs some explaining for the western mind, when decisions are to be made, the party apparatus calls in people with experience and who advocate different views to discuss the options, they then attempt to make the best possible decision. Does that consensus model work better than the western adversarial system (government versus opposition). Keep watching the rise of mChina to find out.