Christian self-righteousness

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

doesn't matter what brand of christianity - this cartoon says it all:.

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fulltimestudent

Doesn't matter what brand of Christianity - this cartoon says it all:

57

The Bible Gods Word or Mans

by azor in

i remember studying this book years ago and how it impacted my belief system.

i no longer believe the bible is god's word.

however i do have a couple of lingering questions on this subject.

fulltimestudent

The BIG mistake that bible believers make is to think that the bible is the only record of ancient philosphical discussion on the universe.

May I recommend an ancient, long (verse) discussion called, "On the Nature of the Universe," by a first century BCE. writer known as Lucretius. You can download one translation at: http://classics.mit.edu/Carus/nature_things.html

Some parts of that discourse, are of course, "way out there," but think of this statement in his Book One, around verses 480.

"Material objects are of two kinds, partly atoms
And partly also compounds formed from atoms."

Lucretius, was of course, influenced by the concept of atomism, developed by early Greek thinkers known as the first philosophers (or, the Pre-socratics)

(See also the Oxford World Classic publication, The First Philosopher-The Presocratics and the Sophists - Robin Wakefield)

Atoms of course, cannot be seen, but these thinkers were able to conceptualise their existence,

For convenience I let the Wikipedia entry expand that thought:

Atomism (from Greek ἄτομον, atomon, i.e. "uncuttable", "indivisible"[1][2][3]) is a natural philosophy that developed in several ancient traditions. The atomists theorized that nature consists of two fundamental principles: atom and void. Unlike their modern scientific namesake in atomic theory, philosophical atoms come in an infinite variety of shapes and sizes, each indestructible, immutable and surrounded by a void where they collide with the others or hook together forming a cluster. Clusters of different shapes, arrangements, and positions give rise to the various macroscopic substances in the world.[4][5]
References to the concept of atomism and its atoms are found in ancient India and ancient Greece. In India the Jain,[6][7] Ajivika and Carvakaschools of atomism may date back to the 4th century BCE.[8] The Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools later developed theories on how atoms combined into more complex objects.[9] In the West, atomism emerged in the 5th century BCE with Leucippus and Democritus.[10] Whether Indian culture influenced Greek or vice versa or whether both evolved independently is a matter of dispute.[11]
The particles of chemical matter for which chemists and other natural philosophers of the early 19th century found experimental evidence were thought to be indivisible, and therefore were given the name "atom", long used by the atomist philosophy

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomism

So right up to our time, that thought was held to be true.

Only now, some 2500 years after the presocraticthinkers, were humans able to examine the basic building blocks of matter and find that atoms were in fact, divisible.

Continuing the Wikipedia entry:

However, in the 20th century, the "atoms" of the chemists were found to be composed of even smaller entities: electrons, neutrons, and protons, and further experiments showed that protons and neutrons are made of quarks. Although the connection to historical atomism is at best tenuous,elementary particles have thus become a modern analog of philosophical atoms, despite the misnomer in chemistry.

The bible is left for dead by those thinkers.

57

The Bible Gods Word or Mans

by azor in

i remember studying this book years ago and how it impacted my belief system.

i no longer believe the bible is god's word.

however i do have a couple of lingering questions on this subject.

fulltimestudent

This is a response to the part of azor's request for thoughts on the statement that:

"The Bible for the first time introduces a singular monotheistic god."

I think it is more honest to say that, the proto-jews, believed in one god (yahweh) who was their god, and who they considered to the "true god," that is, a 'real' god as opposed to 'unreal,' or 'false' gods who did not really exist. A re-reading of first Kings ch.18 regarding the contest between Elijah and the priests of Baal surely demonstrates that.

The texts claim that this 'real' god revealed himself to Israel's forbears, and continually demonstrated his 'realness' through his dealings with the one family who worshipped him as their own god.

However, that idea is not supported by facts. Professor Mark Damen (Utah State University) calls attention to a wider possibility.

The concept of monotheism has deep roots in Western Civilization, reaching as far back in time as the New Kingdom of ancient Egypt, well before the formation of the ancient state of Israel or the advent of Christianity. - Reference: http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320hist&civ/chapters/10AKHEN.htm

He is (as that page makes clear) talking about the "new" religious teachings of Akhenaten, an Egyptian Pharaoh of the fourteenth century BCE, likely before the formation of any Israelite nation.

To what extent there was a prior discussion is unknown, as is the spread of the idea after the reinstatement of orthodoxy in Egypt.

We also know the concept of a supreme god was spreading among Greek thinkers at the time of Plato, that quite possibly primed the way for the success of early Christianity.

57

The Bible Gods Word or Mans

by azor in

i remember studying this book years ago and how it impacted my belief system.

i no longer believe the bible is god's word.

however i do have a couple of lingering questions on this subject.

fulltimestudent

azor: The Bible for the first time introduces a singular monotheistic god that exists outside of time and space.

May I take the second point first, i.e. that god exists outside of time and space.

What does it mean when someone claims, that there is a being that lives outside of time or space?

The concept is dependent first on being able to demonstrate the existence of such a being, because the problems associated with that being existing in a empty universe, in which measurable time does not exist have only become apparent with our contemporary expansion of knowledge about the universe.

But isn't the concept, that god lives outside of time and space, predicated on a belief (faith) that this god actually exists, but we now start to move in circles as the existence of a creative god is very difficult to demonstrate.

This question was discussed on TED (though I've lost the link) and I really liked the way that the question was asked:

How can God exist beyond space and time?

I'm trying to make sense of this "existence" outside space and time. How can something , anything exist yet not exist in space-time? Something completely disconnected from length, width, height, or point in time....

Is this a "truth" that is beyond human comprehension? For maybe this may be one the "truths" that escapes the human intellect. However there are also non-sense statements that require filtering, I believe that existence beyond space and time is one statement that requires filtering.

Does God pop in and out of existence along with virtual particles? Or is God tightly curled up( about a Planck length?) in one or more dimensions of a Calabi-Yau manifold? Or is this existence as useful as the Cosmic Peanut Butter Theory?

Asking if it's possible means nothing, however. The question to ask is, what makes anyone say this? What is the evidence for such assertions? Show me how does anyone got to this statement.

Please as you deploy your arguments don't conflate suppositions with explanations, for these are not interchangeable. Just because it can be imagined, does not make it valid, or even explanatory.
And no scripture as proof.("Behold, heaven and the highest heavens cannot contain Thee... (1 Kings 8:27)) etc

The above questions were asked by someone who doubted

Another aspect of this discussion involves the way the ancients thought of time. Is it identical to our view.

A useful discussion by a believer is at this link:

http://www.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/library/TynBull_2001_52_2_02_Blocher_TimeEternity.pdf

And finally, I ask anyone considering the question to ask how the people of that time (of scripture writing) understood time and eternity?

23

"Moses, by far the meekest and most humble person" ??

by stuckinarut2 in

seriously, how can it be ok for someone to say of themselves that they are "by far the meekest and most humble person" on the earth?.

numbers 12:3 'now the man moses was by far the meekest of all the men on the face of the earth'.

yes, moses was so humble that he told everyone about it!!?!.

fulltimestudent

freemindfade
fulltimestudent, excellent work and excellent example of eisegesis. thank you.

Thank you fmf, for attempting to praise my amateurish attempts at scholarship. Unfortunately, I must refuse the praise, implicit in your attribution of eisegesis to me.

Why? Because, aside from your precise intention, the fact is that I am only repeating prior scholarship.

For example, in this book, Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times, by Donald B. Redford,

(Princeton University Press 1992)

Or, this one: Out of the Desert: Archeology and the Exodus/Conquest Narratives, William H. Steibing Jr., Prometheus Books, 1989

there are objective assessments that throw doubt on the tradition of the Exodus.

There remains however, one key question. What were the political/cultural/religious implications of the political occupation of the area by the Egyptians?

The Bible offers no comments on the possibilities implicit in a political occupation. Again, we should be asking why not?

43

Atheism

by Jonathan Drake in

jw
friends

recent events and book reads (one suggested by cofty i believe- thank you) have lead me to the only logical and acceptable conclusion:.

there is no god.. simple logical reasoning: matter can neither me created or destroyed.

so the amount of mass in the universe is constant.

fulltimestudent

Depends! In Australia we had April Fools day, yesterday

7

The book of daniel and the five Akkadian prophecies

by bohm in

there are two views on the book of daniel.

according to the conservative jewish/christian view the book of daniel was written in mesopotamia under the babylonian conquest ca.

according to the view of modern history the book was composed ca.

fulltimestudent

Anyone looking for antecedents to Judeao-Christian fairy tales may find this Errdmans' publication,

The Apocalyptic Imagination: An Introduction to Jewish Apocalyptic Literature, helpful. The author is John J.Collins an excellent Bible scholar.

You can gain some idea of content through this preview:

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=PxjNsMrzI-kC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=the+akkadian+prophecies&source=bl&ots=wRzIhaON_r&sig=_Iq2n_sM9dnHLygEWXtWX7v447w&hl=en&sa=X&ei=U1YcVejcKcXd8AW2-ICABQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=the%20akkadian%20prophecies&f=false

43

Atheism

by Jonathan Drake in

jw
friends

recent events and book reads (one suggested by cofty i believe- thank you) have lead me to the only logical and acceptable conclusion:.

there is no god.. simple logical reasoning: matter can neither me created or destroyed.

so the amount of mass in the universe is constant.

fulltimestudent

Aw gee, Clambake, in saying:

I find going from Jehovah Witness to atheist really isn’t that big a jump. Both are incredibly arrogant.

Shouldn't you have included Judeao-Christian thought?

43

Atheism

by Jonathan Drake in

jw
friends

recent events and book reads (one suggested by cofty i believe- thank you) have lead me to the only logical and acceptable conclusion:.

there is no god.. simple logical reasoning: matter can neither me created or destroyed.

so the amount of mass in the universe is constant.

fulltimestudent

Jonathon, welcome to reality.

Thoughtful people have left records of similar journeys. Somewhere in my messy hard disc (or, was it the last one ?-grin) I have some information on Indian thinkers arriving at this same conclusion. I cant find that talk about it, but I can expound on a Chinese thinker's journey (a little further on in this post).

During our long intellectual imprisonment within the grim gray walls of the giant watchtower, there were clearly defined limits to out thinking capacity, but paradoxically it was a certain Watchtower issue that led me to eventual freedom. That long forgotten issue discussed the hebrew word mezimbah, which the WT translated as 'thinking ability'. I came to prize that ability - a very dangerous thing in a totalitarian organisation, though I suggest that in practise, the WTS was not quite as totalitarian as we may think. Private thoughts were one thing, it seems, but what they feared was public discussion and probable ensuing dissension.

So anyway, I also escaped.

But back to my Chinese friends. In the first century CE, Wang Chong, for example, resisted orthodoxy and the sanctification of texts. He advocated developing a strong sense of scepticism, and maybe helped (along with others) free Chinese minds from dogma and tradition. Yang Zhu asked, "what is life for?" And, thought only two things were worth seeking - music and sex! And, since both good and bad men all die, he wrote, " Let us hasten to enjoy our present life. Why bother about what comes after death?"

And, by the fourth century CE, while western thinking was wrapping itself in theocracy, Guo Xiang realised, " ... everything creates itself without the direction of any creator."

Of course, there were other schools of thought in East Asian thinking, and some tendencies were toward mental enslavement, but the great tradition from the time of Kongzi and Mencius was toward scepticism.

As a student of China, it's quite fascinating to see how Chinese political affairs are organised pragmatically, whereas western political thinking is organised on dogma.

23

"Moses, by far the meekest and most humble person" ??

by stuckinarut2 in

seriously, how can it be ok for someone to say of themselves that they are "by far the meekest and most humble person" on the earth?.

numbers 12:3 'now the man moses was by far the meekest of all the men on the face of the earth'.

yes, moses was so humble that he told everyone about it!!?!.

fulltimestudent

There is another connection between the early Israelites and their political overlords, the Egyptian Empire. This connection is still a popular pastime, particularly in Australia, where even the bethel brothers indulge with great pleasure.

This pastime is imbibing a popular beverage known as "beer." We mostly associate drinking wine with the Bible, but the evidence is that in ancient Egypt beer was a common drink and most Egyptians drank it daily, and the early Israelites, whether they learned it from the Egyptians or not, the Israelites also liked a beer or two every day. In fact, Numbers 28: 7-10 commands that Yahweh had to be served his portion of beer (roughly equivalent to a modern six pack) each day. Which means that Yahweh would be able to drink me under the table.

Here's a short overview from the Biblical Archeological Society:

Reference: http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?Volume=36&ArticleID=4&Issue=5

Did the Ancient Israelites Drink Beer?
By Michael M. Homan

Ancient Israelites, with the possible exception of a few teetotaling Nazirites and their moms, proudly drank beer—and lots of it. Men, women and even children of all social classes drank it. Its consumption in ancient Israel was encouraged, sanctioned and intimately linked with their religion. Even Yahweh, according to the Hebrew Bible, consumed at least half a hin of beer (approximately 2 liters, or a six-pack) per day through the cultic ritual of libation, and he drank even more on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:7–10). People who were sad were advised to drink beer to temporarily erase their troubles (Proverbs 31:6). Yet the Biblical authors also called for moderation. Several passages condemn those who consumed too much beer (Isaiah 5:11, 28:7; Proverbs 20:1, 31:4). The absence of beer defines a melancholy situation, according to Isaiah 24:9.

( I liked that reference to Isaiah 24:9, it's like a popular Aussie drinking song that's called, "The Pub with No Beer.")

fulltimestudent

Posts by fulltimestudent

Thank you fmf, for attempting to praise my amateurish attempts at scholarship. Unfortunately, I must refuse the praise, implicit in your attribution of eisegesis to me.

Why? Because, aside from your precise intention, the fact is that I am only repeating prior scholarship.

For example, in this book, Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times, by Donald B. Redford,

Or, this one: Out of the Desert: Archeology and the Exodus/Conquest Narratives, William H. Steibing Jr., Prometheus Books, 1989

there are objective assessments that throw doubt on the tradition of the Exodus.

There remains however, one key question. What were the political/cultural/religious implications of the political occupation of the area by the Egyptians?

The Bible offers no comments on the possibilities implicit in a political occupation. Again, we should be asking why not?

The Apocalyptic Imagination: An Introduction to Jewish Apocalyptic Literature, helpful. The author is John J.Collins an excellent Bible scholar.

You can gain some idea of content through this preview: