Posts by fulltimestudent

8

The first known graffiti making fun of Christians

by fulltimestudent in

what was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the imperial palace area of rome.

it is known as the alexamenos graffito.. .

our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says: .

fulltimestudent

Yes, horses and their relatives (asses and donkeys etc) have been important in human history and therefore (at times) worshipped.

Is it possible that above graffito was based on Alexamenos' worship of a 'horse/god?' It's difficult to say yes or no, without more information. For example, if we knew that Alexamenos was South Asian (Indian) in origin, then I could make a connection.

This is how it could be argued, the Romans were the western market tor the East-West Trade Network (the so-called Silk Road - see Revelation 18). It was difficult for the Romans to trade directly with China, Iran (under both the Parthians and Sasanians) blocked the way and exacted a high tariff. To bypass Iran, the Romans developed trade links with India. So we know it was possible (but not necessarily probable) for a South Asian to find himself in a Roman territory, and somehow become involved in some action that resulted in his enslavement. Being bought and sold a few times, its possible that he finished up as a slave in the Imperial household.

In south Asia, there was a horse-headed god.

Images from Wikipedia.

He was an avatar of Vishnu, named Hayagriva. Information about this god, has been traced back to circa 2000 BCE, among the Indo-Aryan people who were moving south from the central Asia steppes where horses were important.

But it can be appreciated that this interpretation is highly dependent on some coincidences required to explain how a horse worshipper finished up in the Imperial palace. And, it can be noted I offer no explanation as to why this possible explanation has the horse god portrayed as executed.

Compare that to the explanation offered by most scholars. We know that Christians were in Rome in the period most likely to have been the time in which the graffito was scrawled on the wall. No coincidences required. We know that (apparently) Alexamenos (who may have made the second inscription himself), clearly saw himself as a faithful worshipper. If he wrote the second inscription, 'Alexamenos fidelis' ( trans: Alexamenos is faithful) himself, it may have been his response to the first graffito. (Or, maybe another Christian wrote it to encourage him). The vocabulary fits what we know about early Christians.

So how could we explain the horse/ass head on the crucified 'god?'

Is there anything that connects a horse headed figure to early Christianity?

A Wikipedia entry on Alexamenos states:

"Tertullian, writing in the late 2nd or early 3rd century, reports that Christians, along with Jews, were accused of worshipping such a deity.
He also mentions an apostate Jew who carried around Carthage a caricature of a Christian with ass's ears and hooves, labeled Deus Christianorum Onocoetes ("the God of the Christians begotten of an ass")."

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

It is (as acknowledged) quite difficult to assert one interpretation as being the only possible explanation.

But it is possible to think through as to which explanation seems more likely.

41

Review of Dr. Chryssides' new book on Jehovah's Witnesses

by Old Goat in

http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html.

the book costs 140.00, but i bought it.

i agree with dr. de vienne's review.

fulltimestudent

Wild_Thing : Thanks, Old Goat! Wow! I never knew the Watchtower claimed he was born before the time keeping of A.D. began.

Maybe it would be a good idea to check out our present calendar, which was first introduced in the sixteenth century, but took three centuries to have universal acceptance.

As far as the date of Jesus birth is concerned, most scholarship seems to focus on between 4 BCE and 6 BCE, so the WT seems a little closer to your thinking.

http://www.livescience.com/42976-when-was-jesus-born.html

8

The first known graffiti making fun of Christians

by fulltimestudent in

what was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the imperial palace area of rome.

it is known as the alexamenos graffito.. .

our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says: .

fulltimestudent

FayeDunaway : I dont remember the dating of the graffiti other than that I was impressed how early it was. Maybe 180 AD.
That's sort of in the agreed time, Faye. I do not think we can be more precise than that.
Just think, for decades this building was a sort of training school for young men who were to serve in some role in the Imperial palace. The wall in question was only preserved because another wall was built to cover it and provide support for a higher building. It was first acquired by Caligula, who was emperor between 37 and 41CE.
So remembering that this was drawn by a young person during the years in which it served as this school, we cannot expect anything about the building to fix a more precise date. Nothing else in the image, scrawled onto a wall, fixes a time.
But, we do have a young man, Alexamenos, who has a reputation among the other boys for 'praying' and who has apparently professed to being a Christian.
At what time a professed Christian could be found in the palace service is difficult to say precisely, but it seems later rather than earlier..
---------------
It is also difficult to state what value the graffiti has in knowing the precise way Jesus was put to death. We are seeing, not an accurate portrayal of the death, but the image of a young (possibly a slave) co-worker of Alexamenos, who may otherwise have known nothing about Christianity, conjuring up an image to poke some fun at Alexamenos' habit of praying.
We see the graffiti writer's image of the Christian god, not the image that the Christian Alexamenos may have had in his mind.

24

Circuit Overseer say. . .

by Ringo in

last night i had to suffer through the bs spouted by the new co. some garbage about the bible transforming us as people.

he went on and on about how we can look good to people at the hall who see the outside, but the bible will tell us what we are inside.. then he proceeded to use a few select verses to say sex is bad and so is the desire for it.

a healthy bank account or savings is wrong, shouldn't have that either.

fulltimestudent

Ringo : Last night I had to suffer through the BS spouted by the new CO. ... Then he proceeded to use a few select verses to say sex is bad and so is the desire for it.

Sounds like he's got a problem with a 'desire for sex.' If so, he's in good company, Joe Rutherford seems to have had the same problem. And quite a few 'strong brothers,' have had the same problem.

In Sydney, years ago, a prominent bro, was dfed for screwing his S-in-law for 20 years, and the holy spirit did nothing about it.

Yeah! one more thing. A much more common complaint was by sisters whose husbands were so busy 'in the work of the Lord.' that they were too tired at night to do it. Or, at least that's the perception.

and,

A healthy bank account or savings is wrong, shouldn't have that either.

haha! "Rely on the non-existent YHWH" - and live a destitute old age, and be buried a pauper.

On Queensland's Gold Coast, there were so many old aged witnesses without enough funds for a proper disposal of their bodies (when they died) that one of the elders started making coffins out of particle board.

A glorious end to a life spent in YHWH's service. Wonderful isn't it?

41

Review of Dr. Chryssides' new book on Jehovah's Witnesses

by Old Goat in

http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html.

the book costs 140.00, but i bought it.

i agree with dr. de vienne's review.

fulltimestudent

oppostate : From the review at http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html it sure seems like Dr. C. got a lot of facts wrong

I think you skimmed Dr. de Vienne's review. Tracing what happened 150 years ago is difficult (even 50 years ago can be difficult). A scholar can spend decades studying a particular era of history and still have some details wrong.

That's more pertinent when it comes to a small, obscure sect like the first 'Bible Students' who were Russell's followers. Who thought to keep a diary of the activities of those involved? Who knew all of the movements of the people who appeared in the story.

For a comparison, look at how little we really know about the life of Jesus or the history of the early church. And what we do have is clearly coloured and biased.

Twice, de Vienne, makes the point that getting a detail wrong does not detract from the value of the book.

In the first paragraph de Vienne states:

"It is free of polemic, largely accurate and well written. ... In these respects it is superior to almost every book written about the Bible Student and Witness movements since 1920."

And later in his review he writes:

"While I believe it necessary to point out some flaws, I restate my opening point. This is an exceptional book, well worth the time spent reading it (four times.) It is impossible, or nearly so, to write a book like this and not have errors appear."

32

Are Witnesses really "Bible Students"?

by stuckinarut2 in

we were always told that as witnesses we were "sincere bible students".... carefully examining the scriptures.. yes, we were indeed taught much about the content of the bible, it's history, prophecies etc..... but it was always from one perspective....that of the society.

when the society changed its interpretations, we had to do the same..... so were we really "bible students", or "society students"?.

just a thought.....

fulltimestudent

stuckinarut2 : We were always told that as witnesses we were "sincere bible students".... Carefully examining the scriptures. Yes, we were indeed taught much about the content of the bible, it's history, prophecies etc....
But it was always from one perspective....that of the society.

For an answer consider the meaning of the expression 'Bible student', to a 'Catholic Christian' who studies the Bible. Can they be a 'Bible student' if they read the Bible from the perspective of their Church.

Yes, of course.

OTOH, if by the expression 'Bible student,' you want to describe a person who objectively studies the Bible without a pre-concieved bias toward any particular belief system, then NO!!!

So an answer is dependent on what you mean by study.

I suggest to you that most Christians (of all brands) have never been 'students' of the Bible from the second perspective. Reading the NT, we can detect biased statements when particular texts from the OT are ripped out of their context and applied to either Jesus of to the early church, or to the developing doctrines of the church.

In the early church writings in you can find a lot of really stupid stuff. Just as stupid as anything that old Freddy F ever produced. Take as an example this 'proof' that 'resurrection' is 'natural.'

Clement of Rome, the third bishop of that church (and therefore an early Pope) wrote a letter to the Corinthian congregation who were having a big quarrel among themselves. Its dated to 95 or 95 CE. after dealing with the Corinthian congregations bitchfight, old Clement encourages the Corinthians to look ahead to the resurrection hope:

"Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed. (Section or Chap 25)

Link: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

No-one now surely, would claim that to be part of unbiased study of Biblical doctrines.

8

The first known graffiti making fun of Christians

by fulltimestudent in

what was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the imperial palace area of rome.

it is known as the alexamenos graffito.. .

our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says: .

fulltimestudent

What was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the Imperial palace area of Rome. It is known as the Alexamenos graffito.

Our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says:

"Alexamenos, worship your god"

Both Christians and pagans worshipped with arm(s) extended and the most likely interpretation of this crude drawing is that the graffiti artist was ridiculing a young slave named Alexamenos, who had become a Christian (either before or after his enslavement), and at times was likely observed to be praying. Since for most Romans in the period the thought of an executed person being a powerful divinity was ridiculous, we can understand why bored guards or attendants, standing around without too much to do, may think and act as the graffiti indicates.

It all seems to make sense when we think of another item of graffiti, in the same complex (the next door building to be precise). It simply states (and its claimed to be by a different writer) Alexamenos fidelis, - That is, "Alexamenos is faithful."

Which came first cannot now be ascertained. Did Alexamenos write Alexamenos fidelis to describe his own spiritual goal and his associates drew that cartoon to amke fun of his aspiration, or was it the other way round.

I would imagine that being a slave and a Christian was not easy. Slaves had few rights, in fact if a young, handsome Christian, male slave had an owner who wished to have sex with him, the slave would have had little choice but to submit.

The Wikipedia entry seems quite accurate in its discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

and an academic by the name of Dr Peter Keegan, at my university, in a book entitled 'Graffiti in Antiquity,' devotes about a page to it.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=zwTEBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT1&lpg=PT1&dq=graffiti+in+antiquity&source=bl&ots=5cvfTGFV4i&sig=cc4LMaOpAQg200KPZmP1P4Fc7lU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjy_7Tz35vMAhXDxqYKHfhHDfwQ6AEIUzAN#v=onepage&q=graffiti%20in%20antiquity&f=false

Whether we are Christian or not, the above graffiti gives us an insight into the minds of humans when this Asian religious concept was seeping into the western world. It's interesting to consider that at almost the same time as Christianity seeped into the Roman world, Buddhism seeped into the Chinese civilisation of the east.

41

Review of Dr. Chryssides' new book on Jehovah's Witnesses

by Old Goat in

http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html.

the book costs 140.00, but i bought it.

i agree with dr. de vienne's review.

fulltimestudent

Thanks, Old Goat, for drawing out attention to the book. Like Doubtfully Yours, I do not plan to buy a copy, having more interesting academic books on my Book Depository list,

But if I really need to check something concerning my former loving brothers and sisters, I'll know where to head. That's if I can find a copy. Probably in all of Australia, the National Library in Canberra may be the only library that will have a copy.

We should also thank Dr. de Vienne, PhD, for his unbiased review. Those of us who want to see our past in an unbiased light should be appreciative of his work.

Phizzy : Why do I feel that Dr Chryssides is very pro JW ? am I right ?

I doubt that Chryssides is "very pro JW." He's a historian digging out information and couldn't give a stuff whether the JWs. are right or wrong.

Who is supposed to be the first witness to the resurrection of Jesus?

by fulltimestudent in

1 corinthians 15: 3-8.

3 "for what i received i passed on to you as of first importancea : that christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, 5and that he appeared to cephas,b and then to the twelve.

6after that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

fulltimestudent

1 Corinthians 15: 3-8

3 "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importancea : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas,b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

Paul places Peter (Cephas) first. and then a hierarchy of witnesses that seems to be based on his perception of importance in the early church.

Was Paul's explanation correct?

What does Mark say?

Mark 15:40,41.

40 "There were some women there looking on from a distance, among them: Mary of Magdala, Mary the mother of the younger James and Joses, and Salome.

41 These were the women who used to follow Jesus as he went about in Galilee and look after him. And there were many other women there who had come up to Jerusalem with them."

And again in ch. 16:1.2 ...

16 1-2 "When the Sabbath was over, Mary of Magdala, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they could go and anoint him."

Clearly in the early church mythology, these women were at the tomb, and the male followers of Jesus were not there. The materialised angel that is described, speaks to the women, and tells them to go to tell the (apparently male) disciples, including Peter, to go to Galilee and that Jesus would meet them there.

Then, in the Markan account, comes the controversial two endings to Mark. And the so-called 'long conclusion,' states in verse 9,

"When Jesus rose early on that first day of the week, he appeared first of all to Mary of Magdala, from whom he had driven out seven evil spirits. And she went and reported this to his sorrowing and weeping followers. They heard her say that he was alive and that she had seen him, but they did not believe it."

If the 'long conclusion' is correct, Paul was wrong, and Mary was the first witness to this miraculous event.

Why the confusion? If YHWH/JESUS can preserve the Bible as we used to argue when we Jws, then why cant YHWH/JESUS make it clear which is the correct account?

If you'd like to read more widely on this problem, you could examine Dr. James Tabor's discussion of this controversial point. Tabor compares all the gospel accounts and reaches an interesting conclusion.

https://jamestabor.com/mary-magdalene-as-first-witness-and-thus-first-among-the-apostles/

16

Not the Author of Confusion

by Coded Logic in

609 african independent charismatic.

black american apostolic.

african independent charismatic.

fulltimestudent

Haha!

Don't worry, Jesus has a plan.

We cant understand it because our minds are not as advanced as his mind.

fulltimestudent

Posts by fulltimestudent

Maybe it would be a good idea to check out our present calendar, which was first introduced in the sixteenth century, but took three centuries to have universal acceptance.

As far as the date of Jesus birth is concerned, most scholarship seems to focus on between 4 BCE and 6 BCE, so the WT seems a little closer to your thinking.

That's sort of in the agreed time, Faye. I do not think we can be more precise than that.

So remembering that this was drawn by a young person during the years in which it served as this school, we cannot expect anything about the building to fix a more precise date. Nothing else in the image, scrawled onto a wall, fixes a time.

But, we do have a young man, Alexamenos, who has a reputation among the other boys for 'praying' and who has apparently professed to being a Christian.

At what time a professed Christian could be found in the palace service is difficult to say precisely, but it seems later rather than earlier..

---------------

We see the graffiti writer's image of the Christian god, not the image that the Christian Alexamenos may have had in his mind.

Sounds like he's got a problem with a 'desire for sex.' If so, he's in good company, Joe Rutherford seems to have had the same problem. And quite a few 'strong brothers,' have had the same problem.

In Sydney, years ago, a prominent bro, was dfed for screwing his S-in-law for 20 years, and the holy spirit did nothing about it.

Yeah! one more thing. A much more common complaint was by sisters whose husbands were so busy 'in the work of the Lord.' that they were too tired at night to do it. Or, at least that's the perception.

and,

haha! "Rely on the non-existent YHWH" - and live a destitute old age, and be buried a pauper.

On Queensland's Gold Coast, there were so many old aged witnesses without enough funds for a proper disposal of their bodies (when they died) that one of the elders started making coffins out of particle board.

A glorious end to a life spent in YHWH's service. Wonderful isn't it?

Phizzy : Why do I feel that Dr Chryssides is very pro JW ? am I right ?

I doubt that Chryssides is "very pro JW." He's a historian digging out information and couldn't give a stuff whether the JWs. are right or wrong.