freed from old age and death, from decomposition and corruption, eternally living, eternally increasing, and possessing power at will, when the dead will rise again, when life and immortality will come,.... and when the world will renew itself at its wish .

(sacred avesta, lines from the zamyad yasht 19).

fulltimestudent

Cofty: I think I am right in saying that the dualistic idea of a devil was adopted from Zoroastrianism during the exile.

That's the logical conclusion. As a concept it does not seem evident in writings that have a pre-exilic background, but afterwards, as for example, in the Qumran (Dead Sea) scrolls, it is. An example occurs in Vermes' translation of the DDS, ( 1QS 3:17-25) where the author speaks of having to choose between being led by either the Angel of Darkness or the Angel of Truth.

However, we cant leave out of consideration the influential Jews of Babylon.

9

Where did Bible writers get their ideas from?

by fulltimestudent in

here's an extract from a zoroastrian document.. ...and they will make a new world, .

freed from old age and death, from decomposition and corruption, eternally living, eternally increasing, and possessing power at will, when the dead will rise again, when life and immortality will come,.... and when the world will renew itself at its wish .

(sacred avesta, lines from the zamyad yasht 19).

fulltimestudent

Crazyguy: The Persians ruled over the jews for over 100 years ...

Umm! Are you sure? I thought that the Jews (in Palestine) were still part of the Persian (Iranian) Empire up until Alexander the Great was conquering the Persian Empire. Which dates the end of Persian rule around 330 BCE, Which would mean a Persian rule over the Jews of some 200+ years. Of course, after 330BCE they were strongly influenced by Greek thought.

And, since Jews continued to live in Babylon for centuries after that they continued to be influenced by religious developments in that part of the world.

so since the jews were ruled by the babylonians for less then 100 years and got most of the stories in the book of Genesis from them then it only stands to reason they got a lot from the Persians.

Yes, a Babylonian influence could be detected in the early chapters of Genesis. But I was amazed to hear a Professor of Egyptology read from an Egyptian creation document and from the first verses of Genesis ch 1, that showed an intellectual linkage between the Egyptian concept of creation and the idea of the seperation

Another academic writer concludes, in a paper presented at a conference at the Dallas Theological Seminary in 2005:

In conclusion, the author/redactor(s) of the Genesis creation accounts share certain concepts of the makeup of the world with other ancient Near Eastern cultures. However, it is especially with Egypt’s worldview that the author/redactor(s) are familiar. Evidence for this lies in the many allusions to Egyptian creation motifs throughout the Genesis creation accounts. But, rather than being a case of direct borrowing, they demythologize the Egyptian concepts and form a polemic against the Egyptian gods. Thus, they elevate Yahweh-Elohim as the one true God, who is transcendent and who is all powerful. He speaks his desire and it comes to pass. He does not require the assistance of other gods to perform the acts of creation. He alone possesses the power and means necessary to effect the creation of the world. This paper has compiled a list of the more significant parallels between Egyptian cosmology and the Genesis creation accounts, and has shown that Egyptian cosmology and the Genesis creation accounts share more affinity with one another than the Genesis creation accounts share with Babylonian cosmology.

If you'd like to you, can follow his arguments for an Egyptian influence at this link: https://bible.org/article/genesis-1-2-light-ancient-egyptian-creation-myths

So what can we conclude? May this - that Yahweh and Jesus (who as the "Word," is the personification of wisdom, according to John ch 1. copied all their ideas from other Gods. So can we call them the original plagiarists?

6

Have there been any existing cultural group made up of rationalists with neither a religion or a mythology?

by James Mixon in

disbelief is the default position, no one is born having a belief.

beliefs are.

acquired through culture and education, we all know that.

fulltimestudent

Rather than viewing this question from a static position of a particular set of beliefs in any society at a particular time, I suggest we need to see how beliefs develop in a society over a longer period of time.

All human societies have developed from the time when the human mind emerged from the particular type of intelligence we could described as typical of animals (who can have 'intelligence') to something similar to our own experience.

In the beginning, lacking rational explanations for natural phenomena such as that experienced in thunder storms we would expect the explanations we find in the Bible (Job 38:1 NIV):

Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm

The belief system of that writer had, of course, developed from the sheer terror that a much more primitive human may have experienced during an electrical storm, particularly if one of his/hers group had been killed by a lighning bolt, an event that may have been explained by the invention of a divinity.

The mind of the author of Job was already inventing and recording stories that offered (to him and his peers) more rational explanations (to that group) that involved a parallel invention of ethical standards.

It does seem, that in the society we now know as early Israel, that some were already thinking about the question of the reality of divinities. Some likely (for whatever reasons) concluded that there was no God. King David who attributed his rise to Kingship to divine intervention, ordered his national choir to counter that thought in Psalm 14, which commences (verse 1):

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

But to look at another long lived human society, we can cross from David's West Asian society to East Asia and China.

There is archeological evidence of superstitious belief in the early cultural history of the various pre-history societies that eventually formed the Chinese civilisation. Its particularly interesting because of its long historical continuity and possible independent intellectual development (though, we cannot be certain that there were no cross Asian circulation of ideas).

Wing-Tsit Chan, in his, "A Source Book in Chinese Philosphy" writes (Chap 1), (and, I'm selecting thoughts from his first page)

"If one word could characterise the entire history of Chinese philosophy, that word would be humanism - (a humanism) that professes the unity of man and heaven."

" Humanism was an outgrowth, not of speculation, but of historical and social change."

Chan these discusses how the conquest of the Shang dynasty (1751-1112 BCE) (where superstition was prevalent) to the Zhou who (Chan suggests) challenged human ingenuity and ability. For example, replacing prayers for rain with irrigation projects.

They also developed:

" the doctrine of the "Mandate of Heaven, a self-existent moral law, whose constant, reliable factor was virtue. According to this doctrine, man's destiny depended, not upon the existence of a soul before or after death, nor upon the whim of a spiritual force, but upon his own good words and good deeds."

By the time of Kongzi (Confucius) (551-479 BCE) we find the influence of spirits further diminished, as he writes,

" ... respect spiritual beings (ancestors), but keep them at a distance." (Analects 6:20)

And a further one hundred years further on, teacher Liezi (circa 440-360 BCE) wrote:

"Hence, everything creates itself without the direction of any creator."

Hence we see demonstrated in Chinese society, that progression from superstition to rationality that upsets those who want to force us to be dependent on the whims of a mythical spirit being in the sky.

9

Where did Bible writers get their ideas from?

by fulltimestudent in

here's an extract from a zoroastrian document.. ...and they will make a new world, .

freed from old age and death, from decomposition and corruption, eternally living, eternally increasing, and possessing power at will, when the dead will rise again, when life and immortality will come,.... and when the world will renew itself at its wish .

(sacred avesta, lines from the zamyad yasht 19).

fulltimestudent

Here's an extract from a Zoroastrian document.

“...and they will make a new world,

freed from old age and death, from decomposition and corruption,
eternally living, eternally increasing,
and possessing power at will,
when the dead will rise again,
when life and immortality will come,
…. and when the world will renew itself at its wish”

(Sacred Avesta, lines from the Zamyad Yasht 19)

and then the link editorialises ..

These lines, one of the most beautiful in the sacred Avesta proclaiming the ultimate goal towards which all Zoroastrians efforts are directed: the progress of the world towards total renewal and perfection of existence which occurs at the end of the world and final renovation(the Frashkart)..also according to our beliefs the creations of the great God Ahura Mazda as well participate in bringing the world towards perfection and it is the prayer of every Zoroastrian to be among those who renovate life, towards where all the good creation of Good-spirit grows deathless and the Druj (lies) and evils loose their power and perish, as is the will of the Lord.

The above is from a facebook page on Cyrus the Great.

https://www.facebook.com/Greatest.King.Cyrus

If you'd like to know more about Zoroastrianism, Wikipedia has a reasonable description.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

And commences with:

Zoroastrianism /ˌ z ɒr oʊ ˈ æ s t r i ə n ɪ z əm /, also called Zarathustraism, Mazdaism and Magianism, is an ancient monotheistic Iranian religion and a religious philosophy. It was once the state religion of the Achaemenid, Parthian, and Sasanian empires. ...
Zoroastrianism arose in the eastern region of the ancient Persian Empire, when the religious philosopher Zoroaster simplified the pantheon of early Iranian gods into two opposing forces: Spenta Mainyu ("progressive mentality") and Angra Mainyu ("destructive mentality") under the one God, Ahura Mazda ("Illuminating Wisdom").
Zoroaster's ideas led to a formal religion bearing his name by about the 6th century BCE and have influenced other later religions including Judaism, Gnosticism, Christianity and Islam.

We already know that the Jewish elite were exiled in Babylon when Cyrus conquered the city and gave permission for the exiled elite to return to Jerusalem. Some (but not all) did return while many (perhaps even the majority stayed in Babylon and continued to be exposed to Zoroastrian ideas.

2

I stuffed something up ...

by fulltimestudent in

simon, my apologies, i badly stuffed up a post in a thread i had previously started that i called, 'jewish exegesis of the ot scriptures in the days of jesus.'.

when the first post i made yesterday did not appear after a time (not sure, perhaps 30 minutes) i thought i'd done something wrong, so thinking that perhaps the problem may have been the length of the post, i attempted to re-post in shorter sections, still no appearance.. last night, all my attempts showed up.

perhaps you may like to remove the four last posts and i'll start again as a wiser (if not sadder) user.. .

fulltimestudent

Simon, my apologies, I badly stuffed up a post in a thread I had previously started that I called, 'Jewish exegesis of the OT Scriptures in the days of Jesus.'

When the first post I made yesterday did not appear after a time (not sure, perhaps 30 minutes) I thought I'd done something wrong, so thinking that perhaps the problem may have been the length of the post, I attempted to re-post in shorter sections, still no appearance.

Last night, all my attempts showed up.

Perhaps you may like to remove the four last posts and I'll start again as a wiser (if not sadder) user.

Thanx FTS

19

Who Was Jesus and what it means to Believe.

by objectivetruth in

"truth is one, paths are many.

" - gandhi.

gandhi also said, "i like your christ.

fulltimestudent

I feel rather sorry for the Jesus described in the NT. He was clearly deluded, imagining that he was the long-promised deliverer of 'Israel'. Yet 'Israel' continued to be dominated by Rome and the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed and replaced by a pagan temple.

And, his promise that people of his generation would see his return failed, just like the modern JW promises.

16

Jewish Exegesis of the OT Scriptures in the days of Jesus

by fulltimestudent in

the sub-structure of the nt, as understood by new testament scholar, charles harold dodd, is based on,.

... passages of ot scripture with their application to the gospel facts ... it provided the starting point of the theological constructions of paul, (and) the author of to the hebrews, and the fourth evangelist.

it is the substructure of all christian theology and contains already its chief regulative ideas.

fulltimestudent

TYPOLOGY (Types and antitypes)

Perhaps of all the methods of Biblical explanations used by ancient Judaism, typology

is the most mysterious and the most understood. As a method of understanding the

Bible it sees a correspondence between people of the past and the future

As Dunn writes,

“the correspondence with the past is not found within the written text but within

the historical event.”

“Typological exegesis is based on a conviction that certain events in the past

history of Israel, as recorded in earlier scriptures, thereby revealed God’s

ways and purposed with men and did so in a typical manner.”

These events, “manifest a pattern of God’s acts and so prefigure the future

time when God’s purpose will be revealed in its fullness in the age to come.”

Can we find examples of typology in the OT?

Dunn suggests that the Edenic Paradise is likely understood as the “type’ of

eschatological bliss by the author of Isaiah (11:6-8) and Amos (9:13)

In the imagination of Bible writers, David becomes the ‘type’ of the coming

deliverer (cf, Isaiah 11:1-5) and on the basis of Deuteronomy 18:15, Moses

becomes a ‘type’ of future prophets.

In the NT, the author of Romans at 5:14 writes of Adam as the ‘tupos’

(translated as type in English) of “him who was to come.” And the author

of 1 Corinthians 10:6 thinks that the events that followed the exodus were

‘tupoi’ (typical) and again that Yahweh’s dealings with the 12 tribes were also typical.

But it’s the author of Hebrews who really gets into typology.

The instruction given to Moses in Exodus 25:40 sets a pattern (in his opinion) , “See that you make everything according to the pattern …”

And the author tells his readers, that the wilderness tabernacle (10:1) was a

shadow (or, type) of the antitypical, heavenly, sanctuary.

16

Jewish Exegesis of the OT Scriptures in the days of Jesus

by fulltimestudent in

the sub-structure of the nt, as understood by new testament scholar, charles harold dodd, is based on,.

... passages of ot scripture with their application to the gospel facts ... it provided the starting point of the theological constructions of paul, (and) the author of to the hebrews, and the fourth evangelist.

it is the substructure of all christian theology and contains already its chief regulative ideas.

fulltimestudent

Typological Exegesis. (Type and Antitype)

Perhaps of all the methods of Biblical explanations used by ancient Judaism, typology is the most mysterious and the most understood. As a method of understanding the Bible it sees a correspondence between people of the past and the future, or, in the case of Freddy Franz’s book, the present. Except that Freddy’s present, became Freddy’s past after his death.

As Dunn writes,

“the correspondence with the past is not found within the written text but within the historical event.”

“Typological exegesis is based on a conviction that certain events in the past history of Israel, as recorded in earlier scriptures, thereby revealed God’s ways and purposed with men and did so in a typical manner.”

These events, “manifest a pattern of God’s acts and so prefigure the future time when God’s purpose will be revealed in its fullness in the age to come.”

Can we find examples of typology in the OT?

Dunn suggests that the Edenic Paradise is likely understood as the “type’ of eschatological bliss by the author of Isaiah (11:6-8) and Amos (9:13)

In the imagination of Bible writers, David becomes the ‘type’ of the coming deliverer (cf, Isaiah 11:1-5) and on the basis of Deuteronomy 18:15, Moses becomes a ‘type’ of future prophets.

In the NT, the author of Romans at 5:14 writes of Adam as the ‘tupos’ (translated as type in English) of “him who was to come.” And the author of 1 Corinthians 10:6 thinks that the events that followed the exodus were ‘tupoi’ (typical) and again that Yahweh’s dealings with the 12 tribes were also typical.

But it’s the author of Hebrews who really gets into typology.

The instruction given to Moses in Exodus 25:40 sets a pattern (in his opinion) , “See that you make everything according to the pattern …”

And the author tells his readers, that the wilderness tabernacle (10:1)was a shadow (or, type) of the antitypical, heavenly, sanctuary.

16

Jewish Exegesis of the OT Scriptures in the days of Jesus

by fulltimestudent in

the sub-structure of the nt, as understood by new testament scholar, charles harold dodd, is based on,.

... passages of ot scripture with their application to the gospel facts ... it provided the starting point of the theological constructions of paul, (and) the author of to the hebrews, and the fourth evangelist.

it is the substructure of all christian theology and contains already its chief regulative ideas.

fulltimestudent

Typological Exegesis. (Type and Antitype)

Sixty years ago, the Watchtower Society published this book:

cover image

Its format was to list and discuss some 42 illustrations or ‘types’ from the OT which, in the opinion of the writer (presumed to be Freddy Franz) demonstrated that Yahweh, during the period Franz thought of as Armageddon, would preserve survivors of this disaster to live forever on the earth. Here’s a copy of the list provided at the end of the book.

LIST OF 42 TYPES AND PROPHECIES
OF THE EARTHLY HEIRS OF THE NEW WORLD

(In the order of their occurrence herein)

1. The twelve non-Levitic tribes of Israel on the annual day of atonement. — Pages 39, ¶12; 45, ¶20-46, ¶21; 50, ¶26; 352,¶7.

2. Those who with the meek spiritual Israelites seek Jehovah and righteousness and meekness. — Pages 58, ¶12, 13; 362, ¶2-363, ¶3.

3. Ebed-melech the Ethiopian. — Pages 62, ¶17-63, ¶20.

4. The Rechabites. — Pages 64, ¶21-67, ¶26.

5. The "mixed company" that left Egypt with Israel. — Pages 122, ¶23-125, ¶27.

6. The Nethinim (temple slaves), the non-Israelite slaves and singers and the descendants of the servants of King Solomon. — Pages 142, ¶26-147, ¶33; 300, ¶19.

7. The Gibeonites — Pages 145, 1¶30; 239, ¶14-243, ¶21; 300, ¶19.

8. The mariners with whom the prophet Jonah shipped. — Pages 149, ¶35-150, ¶37.

9. The repentant Ninevites. — Pages 152, ¶40-158, ¶48.

10. The sheep gathered to the King's right. — Pages 164, ¶7-167, ¶12.

11. The "other sheep." — Pages 167, ¶12-169, ¶14.

12. The "great crowd" in white robes, with palm branches. — Pages 176, ¶10-182, ¶19; 305, ¶6.

13. King Hiram's woodcutters and stone quarriers and King Solomon's conscripted laborers for doing work before and after the temple's construction. — Pages 182, ¶20-185, ¶23.

14. The gathered, fed, guided and protected ones of Isaiah 49: 9-13. — Pages 185, ¶24-189, ¶29.

15. The men in Jerusalem that sigh and cry over the abominations. — Pages 211, ¶14-217, ¶22.

16. Rebekah's nurse Deborah and other lady attendants. — Pages 224, ¶8; 226, ¶10; 229, ¶14.

17. The bride's "virgins her companions." — Pages 227, ¶12; 229, ¶14-230, ¶16.

18. The temporary resident and the settler who flee to the city of refuge for unintentional manslaughter. — Pages 233, ¶4-238, ¶12.

19. Jonathan the son of King Saul. — Pages 246, ¶3-248, ¶6.

368

20. Foreigners who fought along with King David. — Pages 251 ¶10 — 252, ¶12.

21. Those in the Persian empire who Judaized in favor of Mordecai and Esther. — Pages 258, ¶22-259, ¶¶23.

22. The "desire of all nations" that comes into the temple — Pages 263, ¶6-269, ¶16.

23. The "abundance of the sea" and those who fly like clouds of doves to their dovecotes. — Pages 266, ¶12-268, ¶14.

24. The queen of Sheba who visited King Solomon. — Pages 268 ¶14-269, ¶15.

25. The nations and peoples that flow to the mountain of Jehovah's house to be taught his ways. — Pages 270, ¶17-272, ¶20

26. Jehonadab the son of Rechab. — Pages 276, ¶6-281, ¶13.

27. Midianite Hobab, the kinsman of Moses. — Pages 281 ¶14-283, ¶16.

28. Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite. — Pages 283, ¶16-287, ¶22.

29. Noah's sons and daughters-in-law. — Pages 290, ¶5-293 ¶9; 350, ¶4-351, ¶5.

30. The strangers and sons of the alien who serve as feeders of Israel's flocks and as plowmen and vinedressers. — Pages 296, ¶14-298, ¶16.

31. The foreigner who comes from afar and prays toward the temple. — Pages 297, ¶15-298, ¶16.

32. The "ten men" that "take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew." — Page 299, ¶17.

33. The very great multitude of fish that come to life in the healed waters of the Salt Sea. — Pages 308, ¶10-309, ¶12.

34. Naaman the Syrian healed by Elisha's prescription. — Pages 310, ¶13-312, ¶16.

35. Any thirsty one who hears the invitation and himself says "Come!" — Pages 313, ¶18-314, ¶19.

36. The second set of ten children born to Job after his recovery — Pages 319, ¶9-322, ¶11.

37. Jephthah's daughter. — Pages 323, ¶13-325, ¶16.

38. Joseph's ten repentant half brothers. — Pages 326, ¶19-327, ¶21.

39. The famine-stricken Egyptians who sold themselves to Joseph. — Page 328, ¶22, 23.

40. The prodigal son of Jesus' parable. — Page 363, ¶4.

41. Lot and his daughters. — Page 364, ¶5, 6.

42. Rahab of Jericho. — Page 365, ¶7.

If readers feel inclined, they can read the chapters that discussed these ‘typical’ examples at this site: http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/survivearmageddon/ymsatitles.html.

Perhaps of all the methods of Biblical explanations used by ancient Judaism, typology is the most mysterious and the most understood. As a method of understanding the Bible it sees a correspondence between people of the past and the future, or, in the case of Freddy Franz’s book, the present. Except that Freddy’s present, became Freddy’s past after his death.

As Dunn writes,

“the correspondence with the past is not found within the written text but within the historical event.”

“Typological exegesis is based on a conviction that certain events in the past history of Israel, as recorded in earlier scriptures, thereby revealed God’s ways and purposed with men and did so in a typical manner.”

These events, “manifest a pattern of God’s acts and so prefigure the future time when God’s purpose will be revealed in its fullness in the age to come.”

Can we find examples of typology in the OT?

Dunn suggests that the Edenic Paradise is likely understood as the “type’ of eschatological bliss by the author of Isaiah (11:6-8) and Amos (9:13)

In the imagination of Bible writers, David becomes the ‘type’ of the coming deliverer (cf, Isaiah 11:1-5) and on the basis of Deuteronomy 18:15, Moses becomes a ‘type’ of future prophets.

In the NT, the author of Romans at 5:14 writes of Adam as the ‘tupos’ (translated as type in English) of “him who was to come.” And the author of 1 Corinthians 10:6 thinks that the events that followed the exodus were ‘tupoi’ (typical) and again that Yahweh’s dealings with the 12 tribes were also typical.

But it’s the author of Hebrews who really gets into typology.

The instruction given to Moses in Exodus 25:40 sets a pattern (in his opinion) , “See that you make everything according to the pattern …”

And the author tells his readers, that the wilderness tabernacle (10:1)was a shadow (or, type) of the antitypical, heavenly, sanctuary.

fulltimestudent

Posts by fulltimestudent

“...and they will make a new world,

LIST OF 42 TYPES AND PROPHECIES OF THE EARTHLY HEIRS OF THE NEW WORLD

(In the order of their occurrence herein)

LIST OF 42 TYPES AND PROPHECIES
OF THE EARTHLY HEIRS OF THE NEW WORLD