so this may 2015 study edition...i know you guys have talked about it already, but wow.
this is classic.
mostly i like to revel in the presentation of these changes.
hahahahahahahaha!
Someone is reading good academic research at last!
But individual Jehovah's witnesses are NOT ALLOWED to read that same research, and if they do break that taboo, they cannot discuss it with fellow believers. If they do break the cernsorship rules they face disciplining action, or worse.
What bullsh*t !!!!!!!
Thnx for posting this thread.
long time lurker (2009-ish), first time poster.
first of all, i want to say thank you everyone who contributes to these boards and provokes stimulating conversations and thought processes.
all the opinions and different perspectives are very enlightening.
Further! When we spread our investigative net wider, we find that Barrett DOES believe that children have an innate belief in god, but that he denied (on at least one occasion that he meant to imply the claim that Perry makes.
On the site: Patheos
( http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/childish-beliefs-of-dr-justin-barrett.html )
there is an account of an attack on Barrett's claims by another Oxford academic:
Here’s what Grayling had to say about it:
Barrett and friends infer from the first half of these unexceptionable facts that children are hardwired to believe in a supreme being. Not only does this ignore the evidence from developmental psychology about the second stage of cognitive maturation, but is in itself a very big – and obviously hopeful – jump indeed. Moreover it ignores the fact that large tracts of humankind (the Chinese for a numerous example) have no beliefs in a supreme being, innate or learned, and that most primitive religion is animistic.
- See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/childish-beliefs-of-dr-justin-barrett.html#sthash.bEFiYEEC.dpuf
In response to that attack:
Barrett responded by complaining:
Had Grayling attended the seminar as Brown did (or read my book, Why Would Anyone Believe in God?), he would know that I do not say that religion is “hardwired” or “innate” – rather that children have propensities to believe in gods because of how their minds naturally work.
- See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/childish-beliefs-of-dr-justin-barrett.html#sthash.bEFiYEEC.dpuf
So Perry, your christian brother Barrett, cuts the ground right away from under you, so that you fall into the chasm of being a mere propagandist.
A 'propensity' (tendency) is a long way from everyone "knowing" that god exists.
Footnote: the link again for that discussion is:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/childish-beliefs-of-dr-justin-barrett.html
there's a current court case in ny which is hearing that question right now.
the precise issue is the continued captivity of two chimpanzees, (leo and hercules, names bestowed by humans) in a medical research laboratory at stony brook university.. i suggest that the application has some merit.
are not all of us "animals?
Tempest in a Teacupa day ago: So far as they can pay taxes too, no problem!
Barrold Bonds: a day agoif they're considered people can we fuck them?
long time lurker (2009-ish), first time poster.
first of all, i want to say thank you everyone who contributes to these boards and provokes stimulating conversations and thought processes.
all the opinions and different perspectives are very enlightening.
WHY ARE CHRISTIANS ALWAYS SO INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST?.
Official publications of Jehovah’s witnesses have been exposed as misusing quotations by various non-witnesses. Put simply it means they LIE, through that mis-use.
Perry, uses the same manipulative technique.
In this thread, defender of truth asked Perry to provide evidence to support his (Perry’s) statement that ALL people know that god exists.
A very sweeping statement when you consider that surveys indicate that 66% of Chinese are atheists.
defender of truth: Perry said: "However, ALL people know God exists deep down."
What evidence do you have to support such a blanket statement, that you have made on behalf of the entire human race?
In response, Perry with a great degree of confidence responds with this statement
Perry: Here you go D of T,
CHILDREN ARE BORN WITH BELIEF IN GOD
Extra-biblical source above.
WHY ARE CHRISTIANS ALWAYS SO INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST.
So we can go to the link, and indeed we find a headline to an article that states:
We also see the web-site name, “Uncommon Descent – Serving the Intelligent Design Community.
So the function of the web-site is to attempt to support a belief in creationism.
Let’s review the article. The lead paragraph states:
Researchers from Oxford’s Centre for Anthropology and Mind have found evidence that children are predisposed to believe in God or a supreme being. This is because of a natural assumption that everything in the world exists for a purpose and was therefore created.
Those statements can be challenged, but let’s leave them aside and check who made the claim>
We find it’s a person named Dr. Justin Barrett, who on investigation, turns out to be a devout Christian. (Are you surprised?) (See, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_L._Barrett ) Of course, Christians can do good research like anyone else. That’s not the issue at stake here. What’s at stake is the manipulation of the work of others.
The quite short article further argues:
At a lecture at Cambridge University’s Faraday Institute, Barrett cited psychological experiments carried out on children that reveal an instinctive belief in children towards acceptance of design and purpose. This leads to a natural belief in creation rather than evolution, even when they are told differently by parents or teachers. Anthropologists have found that in some cultures children accept belief in God even when specific religious teaching is withheld. He commented;
“Children’s normally and naturally developing minds make them prone to believe in divine creation and intelligent design. In contrast, evolution is unnatural for human minds; relatively difficult to believe.”
Barrett’s supporting evidence is research that concluded that there was an, “instinctive belief in children towards acceptance of design and purpose.”
Don’t you agree Perry, that having a mind construction that tends to look for an object’s ‘design’ and ‘purpose,’ is a long way from being born with a belief in God.
Did you read the full article before posting? Or, did you, with the same mindset as a witness, just accept the statement without examination. (Perhaps on the basis that faith is credulous)
so, i'm sitting in a bar, having a drink.
the bar participates in taptv, an online trivia thing.
the question that came up was, "what did jehovah's witnesses call themselves before 1931".
Billy the Ex-Bethelite: The history and methods of WT are rooted in salesmanship.
I blame their connections to Coca Cola.
See : http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/158919/rutherford-wm-heath-sr-coca-cola?page=1
The 1930's Rutherford slogan, "Advertise, Advertise, Advertise, the King and His Kingdom," sounds as though it could be right out of a Coca Cola sales manual.
there's a current court case in ny which is hearing that question right now.
the precise issue is the continued captivity of two chimpanzees, (leo and hercules, names bestowed by humans) in a medical research laboratory at stony brook university.. i suggest that the application has some merit.
are not all of us "animals?
There's a current court case in NY which is hearing that question right now. The precise issue is the continued captivity of two chimpanzees, (Leo and Hercules, names bestowed by humans) in a medical research laboratory at Stony Brook University.
I suggest that the application has some merit. Are not all of us "animals?" And, chimpanzees are provably related to humans with very a close genetic picture. They generally have an intelligence similar to a younger child, and can be taught to communicate.
So what's your take on the application?
i find it hard to believe that adults on this forum make such a big deal about not celebrating birthdays, x-mas, easter, halloween, etc, etc, etc.
i grew up as a jw kid and it actually made me feel good, being different from the other kids in school.
we went to meetings.
Two of my friends kids are still in. I think that's because he (and, he was usually an elder) believed he should make life interesting for his kids. He made sure they had something to replace the O.W. celebrations. In their case it was a special family day, based around his wedding anniversary, when everyone got and gave gifts. He says he understood the need for ritual in people's lives. So assemblies and the Memorial were always a big deal, with some build up to the events.
Additionally, he took them to classes in school holidays, I recall him having his kids taught gymnastics for about a year.
Interestingly, both children (now adults with their own families) do the same. One daughter takes her kids to swimming classes, and they swim well, well enough to be considered for the state swimming squad in the state where they live. The other daughter is involved in modern dance in the European city where she now lives, and she takes her child to classes.
In neither case do the elders in their congregation appear disturbed by those activities.
Interestingly, where he lives, a couple of JW guys have rented an apartment. They both appear to be heavily involved (possibly pioneering) but own good quality bicycles and most days in summer go on long bike rides. One even has a 'hot' motor bike and 'lairises' around on it.
Maybe this is just the more relaxed world of Australia.
I quote it all to be fair. And, I should also note that I have seen some absolute bastards in some congregations and also wondered why the branch put up with their stupidity.
long time lurker (2009-ish), first time poster.
first of all, i want to say thank you everyone who contributes to these boards and provokes stimulating conversations and thought processes.
all the opinions and different perspectives are very enlightening.
Family issues are one thing, but the 'God thing' is another. That description indicates where I am now, but I think I had a rather relaxed journey from a point, not so long before I started my journey out, where I spent a whole day in fervent prayer telling Yahweh and Jesus how much I loved them both, on to a point where I could be described as an atheist.
Do you really think it matters a lot whether you believe (and talk to) a personage whose existence we can only attempt to imagine? OR, whether we do not believe in such a personage?
Even when I was a mentally out and got the big pork chop award, I was still a believer. I suggest our journey from there should be gradual and relaxed.
It will not make a skerrick of difference in your ordinary everyday life, whether you believe in a divinity or not. As you may observe, the lives of unbelievers is not much different to that of believers. Good things happen to both and sometimes bad things.
I say all the above while acknowledging that I get a bit of fun out of ridiculing the supposed existence of some super-human divinity with supposed super powers, but who never deigns to demonstrate them to us.
Just relax and have an interesting trip to wherever you finish up - grin.
a famous ancient site that has evidence of buddhist ideas infiltrating china is the dunhuang caves.
from a western viewpoint, archeologist aurel stein discovered a room full of ancient documents in these caves in dunhuang, nothwest china.. here's aurel stein in the tarim desert.
the wikipedia entry notes that: .
A famous ancient site that has evidence of Buddhist ideas infiltrating China is the Dunhuang Caves. From a western viewpoint, archeologist Aurel Stein discovered a room full of ancient documents in these caves in Dunhuang, Nothwest China.
Here's Aurel Stein in the Tarim desert.
The Wikipedia entry notes that:
Stein's greatest discovery was made at the Mogao Caves also known as "Caves of the Thousand Buddhas", near Dunhuang in 1907. It was there that he discovered a printed copy of the Diamond Sutra, the world's oldest printed text, dating to AD 868, along with 40,000 other scrolls ( Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurel_Stein )
Some scrolls described the paradise to which the Amitbha Buddha promised to take (at death) his followers, who had called on his name, and some of the illustrations (wall art) seemed based on those Sutras (scriptures), like this one:
And In another Pure Land, or Paradise painting:
Shakyamuni, the historical Buddha, with his hands in the vitarka-mudra (gesture of preaching), sits between two bodhisattvas. A dancer and an orchestra perform before him. Another group sits below them. The Buddha has the sun and the moon on his robes, the cosmological emblems of Mount Shumeru. The scene is probably intended to represent Shakyamuni's cosmic aspect as expounded in the Lotus Sutra. Two mythical creatures standing on golden islands, the double-headed jiva-jiva and the kalavinka, flank this second group. A row of donors are shown at the base of the painting.
Even Jewish documents have been found there:
Selihah (penitential prayer) leaf written in Hebrew. 8th or 9th century CE
All these illustrations and documents have been important in re-constructing the conversion of East Asia to Buddhism, and the presence of many other religions in the caves.
Another scholar, important to the study of these documents, was Paul Peliot seen here in the "library cave" which contained some 50,000 documents, the largest group of ancient documents ever found.
Paul Pelliot examining manuscripts in the Library Cave, 1908
IF such things interest you, the caves are not difficult to visit these days. This China Central Televison documentary shows what you could see in the area.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb0FaBfzRxg
japanese prime minister has been visiting the us for talks.
the problem of japan's relationship with south korea was likely on the table for discussion.. the opinion of many observers, is that it may be a long time before japanese atrocities during their near 40 year occupation of korea will be forgotten.. a south korean film, my way (in english) crystallises the emotions felt in both korea's and in china.. more about the film: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/my_way_%282011_film%29.
and a dramatic segment of the film, where the amazing russian advance across japanese held china (manchuria) and into korea, brought the russian military onto the sakhalin islands and only a few km from the japanese island of hokkaido, scaring the the japanese leadership with the thought that if the war did not end, there would be a russian invasion of the mainland.
Hey! I made a mistake this morning. The above battle scene between Russians (USSR) and Japanese was an earlier fight, in July 1939, called the battle of Nomonhan or Khalkhin Gol. The only time, prior to later in WW2, when the Japanese army can be said to have been defeated.
