Posts by aqwsed12345

  • heyfea
    17

    Any explanation from WT about the missing tribe in Rev. chap. 7?

    by heyfea in
    1. watchtower
    2. bible

    i don't think i ever heard a reference from the wt about the fact that in chapter 7 of revelation, one of the tribes of israel, dan, is missing and replaced with the tribe of manasseh, who's joseph's son (jacob adopted joseph's son as his own).. since the wt insists that the 144,000 "jews" are not literal jews, then why jesus didn't simply mention all the original tribe names in revelation?

    it really wouldn't have made a difference, right?.

    ah, but what if these 144,000 jews, are really jews?

    1. aqwsed12345
    2. sabastious
    3. AGuest
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    All Christian believers must be born again, or regenerated (Jn 3:3-6, 1 Jn 5:1; cf. Rom 8:8, 2 Cor 5:17). Most Christians believe this occurs during regenerative baptism; others make it a strictly spiritual experience of conversion, but all agree that it is absolutely necessary for every believer. The notion that Jesus Christ needed to be born again is blasphemous, and nowhere found in Scripture. Only sinners are in need of regeneration and a Savior, and since Jesus is the sinless Savior, it is ludicrous to speak of His being born again.

    The doctrine of 144,000 has been arbitrarily developed from a few verses in Revelation, interpreted in a highly curious way. For the 144,000 are clearly Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel, which is explicitly stated in Rev 7:4-8. Rev 14:4 also informs us that the 144,000 are all unmarried virgin men! Scripture also teaches that there will be only one flock, not two (Jn 10:16), and that heaven and the New Earth will be one and the same (Rev 21:2,23-24, 22:3). As for the "great crowd," the Bible states that they are before God's throne in heaven (Rev 7:9; cf. 14:1-3). Rev 7:15 tells us that they serve God "in his temple" in heaven (see Rev 11:19, 14:17), and Rev 7:16 adds that "neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat." This also indicates that they are in heaven, according to Rev 21:23 and 22:5.

    No one can be saved apart from Jesus' mediatorial, redemptive, and atoning work on the Cross (1 Tim 2:4-5, Jn 3:15-18, Rom 3:10,20-28, 4:3-8,25, 5:1-2,18-19, 11:6, Phil 3:9, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-10,Titus 3:4-7). If salvation were possible apart from the unmerited work of Jesus Christ on our behalf, then He didn't have to come to earth and die for us at all. He is no Savior at all if He only saves 144,000.

    Moreover, there is no indication whatsoever in the communion passages (e.g., 1 Cor 11:23-24, Lk 22:14-20) that the Lord's Supper, or Eucharist, was to be observed by a small "elite" group only. It is for all Christians. This is why the early Christians met (Acts 2:46: "breaking bread"). Jesus said:

    . . . Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (John 8:53)

    Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 8:54)

    So how is it possible to attain eternal life even on the earth, without partaking of the Body and Blood of the Lord? Jesus says it is not possible. According to The Watchtower of 1 January 1995 (p. 15), only 8,617 (remaining from the 144,000) partook of communion in the yearly service of 1994.

    Lastly, the idea that the Old Testament saints will not go to heaven is contradicted by Matthew 8:11 (the NWT adds an "s" to "heaven" in order to undercut the clarity of this verse), Hebrews 11:4-11,16 and Psalms 73:24. Matthew 5:12 teaches that all believers will go to heaven. It is expressly stated in Scripture that Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:1,11).

  • heyfea
    17

    Any explanation from WT about the missing tribe in Rev. chap. 7?

    by heyfea in
    1. watchtower
    2. bible

    i don't think i ever heard a reference from the wt about the fact that in chapter 7 of revelation, one of the tribes of israel, dan, is missing and replaced with the tribe of manasseh, who's joseph's son (jacob adopted joseph's son as his own).. since the wt insists that the 144,000 "jews" are not literal jews, then why jesus didn't simply mention all the original tribe names in revelation?

    it really wouldn't have made a difference, right?.

    ah, but what if these 144,000 jews, are really jews?

    1. aqwsed12345
    2. sabastious
    3. AGuest
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Assuming that the 144,000 are in heaven, the number 144,000 representing the sealed servants of God mentioned in chapters 7 and 14 in the book of Revelation cannot be taken literally. Like many other signs in Revelation it is merely symbolic.

    That the messages in the book of Revelation were conveyed primarily in signs or symbols and not meant to be interpreted literally is evident in the opening chapter: “A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John …. (Rev. 1:1,2 [New World Translation (NWT]). As any Bible reader can attest, Revelation is filled with symbolic imagery, such as a “red dragon with seven heads and ten horns,” (Rev. 12:3), and numeric symbolism: “the number of the beast … is six-hundred and sixty-six” (Rev. 13:18).

    Given the prevalence of this symbolism one must be careful interpreting numbers or images literally, such as the 144,000 sealed servants of God in chapters 7 and 14. Though the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only 144,000 go to heaven, a deeper analysis of Scripture shows that this number cannot be a literal representation and that the book’s author purposed a symbolic or figurative meaning.

    Much criticism has been leveled against the Jehovah’s Witnesses in this regard because the underlying components of the 144,000, that is, the nature and identity of the individuals who make up the 144,000 are clearly symbolic. It makes little sense to premise a literal number on symbolic numbers and individuals. If you build a house made of wood one would expect that you end up with a wooden house, not a plastic one. In chapter 7 John writes of hearing the number of the sealed 144,000 and then seeing the Great Crowd.

    1 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

    4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty- four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

    5 Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed;
    out of the tribe of Reu´ben twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;

    6 out of the tribe of Ash´er twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Naph´ta·li twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Ma·nas´seh twelve thousand;

    7 out of the tribe of Sim´e·on twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Le´vi twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Is´sa·char twelve thousand;

    8 out of the tribe of Zeb´u·lun twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.

    9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

    11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength [be] to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

    13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” (Revelation 7:1-17 NWT)

    In Revelation 14:1-5 the 144,000 are seen on Mount Zion, but the Great Crowd is not in sight.

    1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

    The underlying symbolic components are numerous. First, Rev. 7:4-8 states that the 144,000 came from every tribe of the Israelites and then lists the names of what appear to be the original twelve tribes, but are not. As the Jehovah’s Witnesses point out, “there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the twelve tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16” (Reasoning 166, 167). As such, the Jehovah’s Witnesses view the twelve tribes of the 144,000 symbolically.

    Secondly, the sealed 144,000 listed are Jews, yet the Jehovah’s Witnesses regard this as symbolic as well for they believe they are comprised of both Jews and gentiles (Reasoning, 166, 167).

    Third, whereas the listed 144,000 are made up of twelve distinct groups of twelve thousand members each, the Jehovah’s Witnesses also regard these numbers as symbolic. They have never classified or categorized those who go to heaven in twelve groups of 12,000 yet are quick to calculate them literally to arrive at 144,000 (12 x 12,000 = 144,000).

    Fourth, the “seal on the foreheads of the servants” (Rev. 7:3), and the Lamb and His Father’s names which are written on the foreheads of the 144,000 (Rev. 14:1) represent figuratively, for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, God’s final approval. In their words, “God’s holy spirit serves as a seal that gives those sealed a token in advance of their inheritance, a heavenly one” (Insight, 253, 254). It is symbolic.

    Fifth, Revelation 7:4 literally states that the 144,000 elect are virgin men: “These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact they are virgins.” But as anyone familiar with the Jehovah’s Witnesses knows, the 144,000 are comprised of men and women, married and single; they regard these provisions symbolically as well.

    Sixth, additional evidence that the 144,000 number is not to be taken literally is found at Galatians 3:26-29 and Romans 9:6-8 where the apostle Paul makes clear that those who are rewarded with heaven due so in part as a consequence of God’s promise to the patriarch Abraham, and that the 144,000 heirs to the heavenly promise by virtue of faith are countless, without number, as numerous as the stars in the sky.

    26 YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise. (Galatians 3:26-29 NWT).

    Abraham’s seed - descendant heirs according to the promise - are also identified at Romans 9:6-8 where Paul makes clear that the heirs to the heavenly promise are not limited to fleshly Israel.

    6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed. (Rom. 9:6-8 NWT).

    Paul is referring to Genesis 15:5 where God promised Abraham that he would make his descendants like the stars of the sky, a promise that would eventually extend beyond fleshly Israel and encompass Christians.

    5 He now brought him outside and said: “Look up, please, to the heavens and count the stars, if you are possibly able to count them.” And he went on to say to him: “So your seed will become.” (Gen. 15:5 NWT).

    This Abrahamic promise was reaffirmed and recounted by Abraham’s grandson Jacob while praying to God for deliverance from his brother Esau.

    “Unquestionably I shall deal well with you and will constitute your seed like the grains of sand of the sea which cannot be numbered for multitude.” (Gen. 32:12 NWT).

    Given these verses it is difficult to imagine how the heirs to the heavenly promise number a mere 144,000. They do not. They will be countless, vast; large in actual numbers yet small in proportion to the billions who have ever inhabited earth. Never-the-less, the Jehovah’s Witnesses counter that those countless heaven-bound individuals are countless because they could not be counted at that time.

    “God revealed the purpose and accomplishments of the Abrahamic covenant, saying that through Abraham the seed of promise would come; this seed would possess the gate of his enemies; Abraham’s seed through Isaac would number many, uncountable to man at that time.” (Insight, 522).

    Well, I suppose they are correct in the sense that the heirs to the promise could not be counted so many thousands of years ago because they had not yet been born, and therefore there was nobody to count, but that’s not what the Almighty meant. Regardless of the ultimate count it seems evident that the heirs to the promise will eventually dwarf a mere 144,000. Even the Israelites who numbered in the millions were referred to as being as numerous as the stars (Deut. 1:10).

    Seventh, that the 144,000 is not an exact number is made manifest by Jesus’ statement that the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will also be in heaven:

    11 But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; … (Matt. 8:11 NWT).

    Central to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ beliefs is the doctrine that the “Kingdom is in heaven, not earth” (NWT at 1653) and that neither the patriarchs, ancient prophets or anyone before the time of Christ goes to heaven. Yet somehow, in an effort to dislodge the patriarchs from heaven and disavow the words of Christ they theorize that this banquet in the kingdom of heaven is actually on earth.

    The inspired writer of Hebrews also stated that the patriarchs and other men of old sought a heavenly reward, not earthly, and that this heavenly destination was achieved on the basis of their faith.

    In faith died all these, not having received the promises, but from afar having seen them, and having been persuaded, and having saluted [them], and having confessed that strangers and sojourners they are upon the earth, 14 for those saying such things make manifest that they seek a country; 15and if, indeed, they had been mindful of that from which they came forth, they might have had an opportunity to return, 16 but now they long for a better, that is, an heavenly, wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God, for He did prepare for them a city ... [Heb. 11:13-16 Young's Literal Translation; also NIV (a better country—a heavenly one), NAS (a better country, that is, a heavenly one), NLT (heavenly homeland), KJV (a better country, that is, an heavenly), ESV (a better country, that is, a heavenly one), ASV (a better country, that is, a heavenly)].

    None-the-less, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach, incorrectly, that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will not go, and never wanted to go, to heaven. This is understandable because to concede otherwise would completely erode their 144,000 theory.

    Who are the “righteous” that are to be resurrected? These will include faithful servants of God who lived before Jesus Christ came to earth. Many of these persons are mentioned by name in Hebrews chapter 11. They did not hope to go to heaven, but hoped to live again on earth (Live Forever, 1989, Resurrection - for Whom? And Where? 172, 20).

    If they had kept remembering and longing for the place they had left, they would have had an opportunity to return. But they were reaching out for a better place - ultimately life on paradise earth under God’s heavenly kingdom. - Hebrews 11:15,16. (W94 5/15 30, Coping With Homesickness in God’s Service).

    And there is no question about the spiritual strength of those men and women of faith listed in Hebrews chapter 11. None of those were “born again.” All of them looked forward to “a better resurrection [to life under God’s kingdom] right here on this earth. - Hebrews 11:35. (W82 2/1c 29 “Born Again” - Man’s Part and God’s Part).

    It is difficult to believe that millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses, perhaps unwittingly, believe this without blinking an eye and completely ignore the clear words of Scripture; but they do. Never-the-less, because at a minimum Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will go to heaven, the 144,000 is symbolic and numbers at least 144,003. The final number cannot be ascertained, but is countless in the sense that it will be in the millions.

    Eighth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ congregation of 144,000 who were and are on earth included Jesus as one of their spiritual brothers. He is the high priest and like any high priest or pastor, deacon or bishop, is a fellow member of that community. The Jehovah’s Witnesses recognize as much:

    The inspired application of David’s words recorded at Psalm 22:22 to Jesus Christ at Hebrews 2:12 shows that the term “congregation” can be applied to include the head thereof, Jesus Christ. Partly quoting David, the writer to the Hebrews stated: “For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all stem from one, and for this cause he [Jesus Christ] is not ashamed to call them ‘brothers,’ as he says: I will declare your name to my brothers; in the middle of the congregation I will praise you with song” (Heb. 2:11, 12). (Insight, 498).

    But if only 144,000 go to heaven, then the spiritually anointed while on earth would number only 143,999, and in heaven they would number 144,001 due to the inclusion and then exclusion of Christ in that congregation, who as the Lamb in heaven at Revelation 14:1 is seen as standing apart from his brothers. The 144,000 cannot be taken literally. Their congregation cannot be one body on earth and another in heaven.

    Christians have recognized the symbolic nature of the 144,000 for decades. It is “… the square of twelve a thousand fold, a symbol of the completeness of God’s People” (N. Turner, Peake’s Commentary on the Bible [London: Nelson and Sons, Ltd., 1964], 1050) (Peake’s Commentary).

    Ninth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses make essentially five arguments in support of distinguishing the 144,000 from the Great Crowd, an issue which goes beyond the scope of this paper because we are concerned here not so much with whether the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are the same or not, but whether the Great Crowd is standing on earth pursuant to an earthly salvation plan, or in heaven before God’s throne. The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ argument that the 144,000 and Great Crowd are not the same can be found at pp. 996-997 of their Insight into the Holy Scripturesfor those interested. They go to great length to keep these two groups separate and go so far as to greatly mischaracterize Scripture in this regard.

    Rev. 7:9, 10: “After these things [after the apostle John saw the full number of “sealed” ones who had been “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion; see Revelation 7:3, 4; 14:1-3] I saw, and, look! A great crowd, …” (Reasoning, 166).

    This is false because at no time does John ever see the 144,000 and Great Crowd together at the same time or on the same page. In Revelation chapter 7 he only hears the number of the sealed 144,000 in an earthly vision as four angels stand at the four corners of the earth, and then sees the Great Crowd. In chapter 14 where John sees the 144,000 on Mount Zion he does not see the Great Crowd. These two sightings are separated by six chapters and numerous apocalyptic events, and for many other reasons, a strong argument can be made that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are the same.

    But the main issue here is not whether the 144,000 and Great Crowd in heaven are distinct groups or the same entity, but whether the Great Crowd which “stood before the throne in heaven” is actually standing on earth in an “approved condition.” As will be expanded upon below, the Great Crowd standing on earth rather than in heaven is core to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ salvation doctrine; without it they have no claim to legitimacy, no religion. For 99.99999% of the world’s population - as a member of the surviving Great Crowd or the 20 billion resurrected - salvation is an earthly, fleshly aspiration, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Tenth, in admonishing the scribes and Pharisees, Jesus said:

    ...you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter. (Matthew 23:13 NAB)

  • heyfea
    17

    Any explanation from WT about the missing tribe in Rev. chap. 7?

    by heyfea in
    1. watchtower
    2. bible

    i don't think i ever heard a reference from the wt about the fact that in chapter 7 of revelation, one of the tribes of israel, dan, is missing and replaced with the tribe of manasseh, who's joseph's son (jacob adopted joseph's son as his own).. since the wt insists that the 144,000 "jews" are not literal jews, then why jesus didn't simply mention all the original tribe names in revelation?

    it really wouldn't have made a difference, right?.

    ah, but what if these 144,000 jews, are really jews?

    1. aqwsed12345
    2. sabastious
    3. AGuest
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel - He heard their number, 144,000 which is clearly a symbolic number, later he sees them as a great multitude which no one could count. In the NT the church is described as the Israel of God, Gal 6:16, and as Abraham's seed in Gal 3:29, in Rom 4:16 Abraham is the father of those who believe. The number 144 also appears in Rev 21:17 which is the thickness of the walls of the New Jerusalem, which is a clear reference to the complete OT and NT church. 12,000 is found inRev 21:16 as the length of the New Jerusalem, again this is a vision of the new Jerusalem whose gates had the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on them and whose twelve foundations had the names of the twelve apostles on them because the city is composed of both old and new testament saints. A number of dispensationalist commentators particularly from America hold that there is a separate place for Israel and the church in their theology, but this does not accord with NT theology about the church, the 144,000 are not Jewish converts in the last days but are the church. The church is the true Israel of God, God works in the world through his church, in the OT it was through the twelve tribes and in the NT through the twelve apostles. The place for Israel or rather the Jewish people in the last days is as part of the church. The number thousand means complete so the 144,000 represent all God's people from the old and new testament. The 144,000 is not a literal number, it is the complete church not part of it. 144=12 * 12, i.e. OT * NT church, 1000=10*10*10 which means completeness. The symbolism ought to be evident from the breakdown of the number 144,000 into twelve tribes of exactly 12,000 for each tribe. Israel was the name given to Jacob after he struggled with God and with men and overcame (Gen 32:28), once again a reference to God's people as overcomers.

    144,000 from all the tribes of Israel - What follows is clearly a census of all the tribes of Israel, however when we examine the census it has some significant differences from actual censuses taken in the OT. Each tribe has exactly 12,000 counted so the census should be regarded as symbolic. When the first census was taken of the tribes they had to pay a ransom,Exo 30:12, so those in the census were ransomed people. The 144,000 are found again in 14:1 where they have the name of the Lamb and the Father written on their foreheads. In the description of the new Jerusalem, 22:3-4, we also find God's servants with his name on their foreheads.

    From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed - The 144,000 sealed, the first born of the twelve tribes of OT Israel is Reuben who is normally mentioned first, he is listed second to Judah, but here the first tribe in the list and therefore the first born is from the tribe of Judah, Jesus is the first born of the dead (Rev 1:5, Col 1:15) and is from the tribe of Judah (Heb 7:14, Rev 5:5). He is the firstborn of many brothers, Rom 8:29. The number of people in each tribe is 12,000 which is symbolic, this number also occurs when the New Jerusalem is measured, its length, width and height is 12,000 stadia. It had twelve gates and on each gate was written the name of one of the tribes of Israel, the city had twelve foundations on which were written the names of the twelve apostles.

    from the tribe of Levi 12,000 - Levi is the tribe of priests, it is now include in the census, whereas they are not normally counted (Num 1:4749) 'You must not count the tribe of Levi or include them in the census of the other Israelites'. The NT saints are a royal priesthood, 1 Pet 2:9, there is no need now for a separate tribe of priests.

    from the tribe of Joseph 12,000 - Joseph is not normally mentioned as a tribe, his sons Manasseh and Ephraim are normally mentioned as two tribes (Gen 48:5), however Ephraim went into idolatry and is not mentioned here as did Dan who is not mentioned, idolaters are excluded from the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:15). Joseph is a type of Christ, there is nothing bad mentioned about him in scripture. Both Joseph and Christ were unjustly tried, Joseph was unjustly charged with trying to rape Potiphar's wife (Gen 39:1-20). Both suffered, Joseph in prison and Jesus on the cross. Both were later crowned with glory and honour (Gen 41:39-45, Heb 2:9).

    The census thus reveals Christ as the firstborn, it includes the priests together with Joseph as a type of Christ, all have been ransomed, but there are no idolaters in it; it is the church of the redeemed.

  • heyfea
    17

    Any explanation from WT about the missing tribe in Rev. chap. 7?

    by heyfea in
    1. watchtower
    2. bible

    i don't think i ever heard a reference from the wt about the fact that in chapter 7 of revelation, one of the tribes of israel, dan, is missing and replaced with the tribe of manasseh, who's joseph's son (jacob adopted joseph's son as his own).. since the wt insists that the 144,000 "jews" are not literal jews, then why jesus didn't simply mention all the original tribe names in revelation?

    it really wouldn't have made a difference, right?.

    ah, but what if these 144,000 jews, are really jews?

    1. aqwsed12345
    2. sabastious
    3. AGuest
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    From the about twenty tribe list in the Old Testament only three matches completely, and there are also gaps between them (eg Deuteronomy 33). The Bible says that Joseph is Jacob's son Joseph, so does the 12 tribe was one of the founders. In the tribe list consist usually one of two sons: Ephraim OR Manasseh is mentioned. The list in the Rev 7 (Differs by only two points and it is also a reason) is only unprecedented in the sense that Joseph and Manasseh (one father and son) appear in a separate strain. This is obviously due to the substitution, tribes became an idolater legitimately missing: Dan (Leviticus 24:11, Judges 18:1.30, 1 Kings 12:28-29) and Ephraim (Judges 17, Hosea 4:17). Levi may be included in the list is because although the land was not originally the son of Jacob, and was under a separate tribe from blood. Finally, in Moses' blessing of Joseph and his tribe of Levi is also included (see Deuteronomy 33).

    The tribe of Dan is not listed, could be because of the Jewish perception of the Antichrist is from the tribe of Dan. It replaced by the son of Joseph, Manasseh. So the tribe of Dan, which emergently became an idolater is excluded, its report that all those who have to resemble the world more like God, share his fate, he will not be part of the chosen. Dan’s tibe was first reared its head in the idolatry (Judges 18th chapter), and in his district was Jeroboam calf. (1 Kings 12:30). Dan is already excluded in the book of Chronicles (I Chr 4-8.). Tribe of Ephraim is replaced by Joseph, because Ephraim split the unity of Israel.

  • AGuest
    3

    Holy Spirit (vs. The Holy Spirit)... the Simple Answer...

    by AGuest in
    1. watchtower
    2. bible

    to the household of god, israel, and those who go with, may you all have peace!.

    as we all know, the issue of the holy spirit as a third person of a "godhead" has been debated for, well, millenia.

    one reason for this exhausting but ongoing line of discussion is the confusion between the person of the holy spirit (which is our lord, jaheshua mischajah), and god's holy spirit... the latter which the body was to receive after our lord returned to the father.

    1. Awen
    2. AGuest
    3. aqwsed12345
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Confused Christology: Is Jesus the Son of the Holy Spirit? by Mark Bonocore

    The Holy Trinity and "Oneness" Pentecostals by PhilVaz debate on the Holy Trinity with a Modalist (the heresy is also variously called "Oneness", "Jesus only", Sabellian and Monarchian), also covers the "Oneness" Pentecostal belief that Baptism should be practiced in the name of "Jesus only"

    Debate on the Trinity vs. Oneness by Apolonio

    Defense of the Trinity vs. Modalism by Roger Garza

  • InterestedOne
    39

    Is it normal to quote without naming the source like WT does?

    by InterestedOne in
    1. watchtower
    2. bible

    i am noticing here and there that the wt literature will say things like "one bible dictionary says ..." or "one scholar says ..." and then proceed with a quotation.

    my immediate reaction is to ask myself why they didn't provide the specific source of the quote - author, publication, page #, etc.

    so i am wondering, do other magazines do this?

    1. Quendi
    2. NeonMadman
    3. Retrovirus
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Argument from authority

    + Rhetorical Fallacy in the Watchtower

    + http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com/bagoftricks.html

  • GOrwell
    70

    Acts 10:19, 20 - Destroying the Holy Spirit personification argument

    by GOrwell in
    1. watchtower
    2. bible

    this set of scriptures pretty much demolishes "the holy spirit is only god's active force and is only personified throughout the bible" argument (as if the rest book of acts doesn't already).

    these verses pretty much put the nail in the coffin of that argument :.

    acts 10:19,20 - nwt.

    1. GOrwell
    2. PSacramento
    3. AGuest
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    • Zechariah 4:6 - Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
    • Luke 1:35 - ....The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow....
    • Luke 4:14 - Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news of him spread throughout the whole region.
    • Acts 10:38 - God had anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power...
    • Romans 15:13 - May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may abound in hope by the power of the holy Spirit.
    • Romans 15:19 - ....by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God.
    • 1Cor 2:4 - And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power
    • 1Thess 1:5 - because our gospel came to you not only in words, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with great effect.
  • GOrwell
    70

    Acts 10:19, 20 - Destroying the Holy Spirit personification argument

    by GOrwell in
    1. watchtower
    2. bible

    this set of scriptures pretty much demolishes "the holy spirit is only god's active force and is only personified throughout the bible" argument (as if the rest book of acts doesn't already).

    these verses pretty much put the nail in the coffin of that argument :.

    acts 10:19,20 - nwt.

    1. GOrwell
    2. PSacramento
    3. AGuest
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The Holy Spirit is a Person

    • Luke 12:12 - the Holy Spirit will teach you in that hour what you ought to say. He (the Holy Spirit) teaches the faithful.
    • John 14:17 - the world neither sees Him or knows Him ("Him" is referring to the Holy Spirit). You know Him for He dwells with you.
    • John 14:26 - the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all I have said to you.
    • John 15:26 - the Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to me. He = the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a person, not a thing.
    • John 16:7 - if I do not go, the Counselor will not come to you. But if I go, I (Jesus) will send Him to you.
    • John 16:7 - this verse also proves the filioque (that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son). The Father isn?t just loving the Son; the Son is loving the Father in return, in the same Spirit of love. Therefore, the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
    • John 16: 8 - when He (the Holy Spirit) comes, He will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.
    • John 16:13-14 - when the Spirit of truth comes He will guide you into all truth. He will speak, He will declare and He will glorify.
    • Acts 8:29; 10:19-20; 11:12;13:2; Rev. 22:17 - the Holy Spirit speaks to us like a human person.
    • Acts 15:25,28 - it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us. The Holy Spirit, as a divine person, thinks and makes judgments.
    • Rom. 8:26 - the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. It is the Spirit Himself, not itself.
    • Rom. 8:16 - it is the Spirit Himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God. The Spirit is a person.
    • Rom. 15:30 - I appeal to you by the Lord Jesus and the love of the Spirit. Only persons, rational beings, can love.
    • 1 Cor. 12:11 - the Holy Spirit apportions His gifts to each one individually as He wills. He is the third person of the Godhead.
    • 2 Cor. 13:14 - the Holy Spirit can have fellowship with the faithful like a human person.
    • Eph. 4:30 - the Holy Spirit can be grieved, just as human persons can be grieved.

    The Holy Spirit is God

    • Job 33:4 - "The Spirit of God made me and the breath of the Almighty has given me life." Only God is the creator of life.
    • Matt. 12:31; Luke 12:10 - Jesus says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Only God can be blasphemed.
    • John 4:24 - God is a spirit (the Holy Spirit) and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. Only God is worshiped.
    • John 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7 - the Father and the Son send the Counselor, the Holy Spirit - Isaiah 9:6 - the Counselor is Mighty God.
    • Acts 5:3-4,9 - Peter tells Ananias that he lied to the Holy Spirit, and that he has not lied to men, but to God (the Holy Spirit).
    • Acts 28:25-27 - the Holy Spirit said "Go to this people and say..." - Isaiah 6:8-10 - the Lord said "Go to this people and say..."
    • Rom. 8:11 - the Spirit that raised Jesus up from the dead - Gal. 1:1 - God the Father raised Jesus from the dead.
    • 1 Cor. 2:10 - the Spirit searches everything - Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the heart.
    • 1 Cor. 3:16 - you are the temple of God - 1 Cor. 6:19 - you are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
    • 1 Cor. 12:4-6 - there are varieties of gifts but the same Spirit, varieties of service but the same Lord, varieties of working but same God.
    • 2 Cor. 3:6,17 - we are ministers of the covenant in the Spirit which gives life. Now the Lord (God) is the Spirit.
    • Heb. 10:16 - the Holy Spirit said this is the covenant I will make - Jer. 31:33 - the Lord said this is the covenant I will make.
    • 1 Peter 1:2 - we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the very God of peace sanctifies you wholly.
  • GOrwell
    70

    Acts 10:19, 20 - Destroying the Holy Spirit personification argument

    by GOrwell in
    1. watchtower
    2. bible

    this set of scriptures pretty much demolishes "the holy spirit is only god's active force and is only personified throughout the bible" argument (as if the rest book of acts doesn't already).

    these verses pretty much put the nail in the coffin of that argument :.

    acts 10:19,20 - nwt.

    1. GOrwell
    2. PSacramento
    3. AGuest
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Anti-Trinitarian proof texts against the Holy Spirit refuted