Posts by aqwsed12345

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

aqwsed12345

@Rattigan350

That sounds exactly like an atheist-materialist would say...

Read THIS and THIS.

66

this is going to be very brief but a user recently tried to argue an argument that has already been refuted many times - the logic is somewhat sound but falls apart when the definition to the word used it looked and its usages in the bible.the word in question is "aionas" found in the scripture in question hebrews 1:2 .

(https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm#lexicon)for starters look at the biblehub translations - do any of them state "outside of time" or that time was "created" in this moment - no because this seems to be heavily inspired by greek philosophy rather than the bible itself.note: i am not saying this word does not mean eternity or anything of the sort, i am saying this scripture some of the claims i dispute and can easily disprove, hence the argument is laughable.. bill mounce defines the word as:pr.

a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, heb.

aqwsed12345

πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως] ‘the First-born of all creation.’ The word πρωτότοκος has a twofold parentage:

(1) Like εἰκών it is closely connected with and taken from the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logos. The word however which Philo applies to the λόγος is not πρωτότοκος but πρωτόγονος: de Agric. 12 (I. p. 308) προστησάμενος τὸν ὀρθὸν αὐτοῦ λόγον πρωτόγονον ὑίον, de Somn. i. 37 (I. p. 653) ὁ πρωτόγονος αὐτοῦ θεῖος λόγος, de Confus. ling. i. 28 (I. p. 427) σπουδαζέτω κοσμεῖσθαι κατὰ τὸν πρωτόγονον αὐτοῦ λόγον: comp. ib. i. 14 (I. p. 414) τοῦτον πρεσβύτατον υἱὸν ὁ τῶν ὄντων ἀνέτειλε πατήρ, ὃν ἑτέρωθι πρωτόγονον ὠνόμασε: and this designation πρεσβύτατος υἱὸς is several times applied to the λόγος. Again in Quis rer. div. her. § 24 (I. p. 489) the language of Exod. xiii. 2 ἁγίασόν μοι πᾶν πρωτότοκον πρωτογενές κ.τ.λ. is so interpreted as to apply to the Divine Word. These appellations, ‘the first-begotten, the eldest son,’ are given to the Logos by Philo, because in his philosophy it includes the original conception, the archetypal idea, of creation, which was afterwards realised in the material world. Among the early Christian fathers Justin Martyr again and again recognises the application of the term πρωτότοκος to the Word; Apol. i. 23 (p. 68) λόγος αὐτοῦ ὑπάρχων καὶ πρωτότοκος καὶ δύναμις, ib. § 46 (p. 83) τὸν Χριστὸν πρωτότοκον τοῦ Θεοῦ εἶναι ... λόγον ὄντα οὗ πᾶν γένος ἀνθρώπων μετέσχε, ib. § 33 (p. 75 C) τὸν λόγον ὃς καὶ πρωτότοκος τῷ Θεῷ ἐστι. So too Theophilus ad Antol. ii. 22 τοῦτον τὸν λόγον ἐγέννησεν προφορικόν, πρωτότοκον πάσης κτίσεως.

(2) The word πρωτότοκος had also another not less important link of connexion with the past. The Messianic reference of Ps. lxxxix. 28, ἐγὼ πρωτότοκον θήσομαι αὐτὸν κ.τ.λ., seems to have been generally allowed. So at least it is interpreted by R. Nathan in Shemoth Rabba 19, fol. 118. 4, ‘God said, As I made Jacob a first-born (Exod. iv. 22), so also will I make king Messiah a first-born (Ps. lxxxix. 28).’ Hence ‘the first-born’ ὁ πρωτότοκος (בכור), used absolutely, became a recognised title of Messiah. The way had been paved for this Messianic reference of πρωτότοκος by its prior application to the Israelites, as the prerogative race, Exod. iv. 22 ‘Israel is my son, my first-born’: comp. Psalm. Salom. xviii. 4 ἡ παιδεία σου ἐφ’ ἡμᾶς ὡς υἱὸν πρωτότοκον μονογενῆ, 4 Esdr. vi. 58 ‘nos populus tuus, quem vocasti primogenitum, unigenitum,’ where the combination of the two titles applied in the New Testament to the Son is striking. Here, as elsewhere (see the note on Gal. iii. 16 καὶ τοῖς σπέρμασιν κ.τ.λ.), the terms are transferred from the race to the Messiah, as the representative, the embodiment, of the race.

As the Person of Christ was the Divine response alike to the philosophical questionings of the Alexandrian Jew and to the patriotic hopes of the Palestinian, these two currents of thought meet in the term πρωτότοκος as applied to our Lord, who is both the true Logos and the true Messiah. For this reason, we may suppose, as well as for others, the Christian Apostles preferred πρωτότοκος to πρωτόγονος, which (as we may infer from Philo) was the favourite term with the Alexandrians, because the former alone would include the Messianic reference as well.

The main ideas then which the word involves are twofold; the one more directly connected with the Alexandrian conception of the Logos, the other more nearly allied to the Palestinian conception of the Messiah.

(1) Priority to all creation. In other words it declares the absolute pre-existence of the Son. At first sight it might seem that Christ is here regarded as one, though the earliest, of created things. This interpretation however is not required by the expression itself. The fathers of the fourth century rightly called attention to the fact that the Apostle writes not πρωτόκτιστος, but πρωτότοκος; e.g. Basil, c. Eunom. iv (p. I. p. 292). Much earlier, in Clem. Alex. Exc. Theod. 10 (p. 970), though without any direct reference to this passage, the μονογενὴς καὶ πρωτότοκος is contrasted with the πρωτόκτιστοι, the highest order of angelic beings; and the word πρωτόκτιστος occurs more than once elsewhere in his writings (e.g. Strom. v. 14, p. 699). Nor again does the genitive case necessarily imply that the πρωτότοκος Himself belonged to the κτίσις, as will be shown presently. And if this sense is not required by the words themselves, it is directly excluded by the context. It is inconsistent alike with the universal agency in creation which is ascribed to Him in the words following, ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, and with the absolute pre-existence and self-existence which is claimed for Him just below, αὐτὸς ἔστιν πρὸ πάντων. We may add also that it is irreconcileable with other passages in the Apostolic writings, while it contradicts the fundamental idea of the Christian consciousness. More especially the description πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως must be interpreted in such a way that it is not inconsistent with His other title of μονογενής, unicus, alone of His kind and therefore distinct from created things. The two words express the same eternal fact; but while μονογενής states it in itself, πρωτότοκος places it in relation to the Universe. The correct interpretation is supplied by Justin Martyr, Dial. § 100 (p. 326 D) πρωτότοκον τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ πρὸ πάντων τῶν κτισμάτων. He does not indeed mention this passage, but it was doubtless in his mind, for he elsewhere uses the very expression πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως, Dial. § 85 (p. 311 B), § 138 (p. 367 D); comp. also § 84 (p. 310 B), where the words πρωτότοκος 212τῶν πάντων ποιημάτων occur.

(2) Sovereignty over all creation. God’s ‘first-born’ is the natural ruler, the acknowledged head, of God’s household. The right of primogeniture appertains to Messiah over all created things. Thus in Ps. lxxxix. 28 after πρωτότοκον θήσομαι αὐτὸν the explanation is added, ὑψηλὸν παρὰ τοῖς βασιλεῦσιν τῆς γῆς, i.e. (as the original implies) ‘above all the kings of the earth.’ In its Messianic reference this secondary idea of sovereignty predominated in the word πρωτότοκος, so that from this point of view πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως would mean ‘Sovereign Lord over all creation by virtue of primogeniture.’ The ἔθηκεν κληρόνομον πάντων of the Apostolic writer (Heb. i. 2) exactly corresponds to the θήσομαι πρωτότοκον of the Psalmist (lxxxix. 28), and doubtless was tacitly intended as a paraphrase and application of this Messianic passage. So again in Heb. xii. 23, ἐκκλησίᾳ πρωτοτόκων, the most probable explanation of the word is that which makes it equivalent to ‘heirs of the kingdom,’ all faithful Christians being ipso facto πρωτότοκοι, because all are kings. Nay, so completely might this idea of dominion by virtue of priority eclipse the primary sense of the term ‘first-born’ in some of its uses, that it is given as a title to God Himself by R. Bechai on the Pentateuch, fol. 124. 4, ‘Who is primogenitus mundi,’ שהוא בכורי של עולם, i.e. ὅς ἐστιν πρωτότοκος τοῦ κόσμου, as it would be rendered in Greek. In this same work again, fol. 74. 4, Exod. xiii. 2 is falsely interpreted so that God is represented as calling Himself ‘primogenitus’: see Schöttgen p. 922. For other instances of secondary uses of בכור in the Old Testament, where the idea of ‘priority of birth’ is over-shadowed by and lost in the idea of ‘pre-eminence,’ see Job xviii. 13 ‘the first-born of death,’ Is. xiv. 30 ‘the first-born of the poor’.

πάσης κτίσεως ‘of all creation,’ rather than ‘of every created thing.’ The three senses of κτίσις in the New Testament; are (1) creation, as the act of creating, e.g. Rom. i. 20 ἀπὸ κτίσεως κόσμου: (2) creation, as the aggregate of created things, Mark xiii. 19 ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς κτίσεως ἣν ἔκτισεν ὁ Θεός (where the parallel passage, Matt. xxiv. 21, has ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς κόσμου), Rom. viii. 22 πᾶσα ἡ κτίσις συστενάζει: (3) a creation, a single created thing, a creature, e.g. Rom. viii. 39 οὔτε τις κτίσις ἑτέρα, Heb. iv. 13 οὐκ ἔστιν κτίσις ἀφανής. As κτίσις without the definite article is sometimes used of the created world generally (e.g. Mark xiii. 19), and indeed belongs to the category of anarthrous nouns like κόσμος, γῆ, οὐρανός, etc. (see Winer § xix. p. 149 sq.), it is best taken so here. Indeed πάσης κτίσεως, in the sense of πάντος κτίσματος, would be awkward in this connexion; for πρωτότοκος seems to require either a collective noun, or a plural πασῶν τῶν κτίσεων. In ver. 23 the case is different (see the note there). The anarthrous πᾶσα κτίσις is found in Judith ix. 12 βασιλεῦ πασῆς κτίσεώς σου, while πᾶσα ἡ κτίσις occurs in Judith xvi. 14, Mark xvi. 15, Rom. viii. 22, Clem. Rom. 19, Mart. Polyc. 14. For πᾶς, signifying ‘all,’ and not ‘every,’ when attached to this class of nouns, see Winer § xviii. p. 137.

The genitive case must be interpreted so as to include the full meaning of πρωτότοκος, as already explained. It will therefore signify: ‘He stands in the relation of πρωτότοκος to all creation,’ i.e. ‘He is the Firstborn, and, as the Firstborn, the absolute Heir and sovereign Lord, of all creation.’ The connexion is the same as in the passage of R. Bechai already quoted, where God is called primogenitus mundi. Another explanation which would connect the genitive with the first part of the compound alone (πρωτό-), comparing Joh. i. 15, 30, πρῶτός μου ἦν, unduly strains the grammar, while it excludes the idea of ‘heirship, sovereignty.’

The history of the patristic exegesis of this expression is not without a painful interest. All the fathers of the second and third centuries without exception, so far as I have noticed, correctly refer it to the Eternal Word and not to the Incarnate Christ, to the Deity and not to the humanity of our Lord. So Justin l.c., Theophilus l.c., Clement of Alexandria Exc. Theod. 7, 8, 19 (pp. 967, 973), Tertullian adv. Prax. 7, adv. Marc. v. 19, Hippolytus Hær. x. 33, Origen c. Cels. vi. 47, 63, 64, in Ioann. i. § 22 (IV. p. 21), xix. § 5 (p. 305), xxviii. § 14 (p. 392), Cyprian Test. ii. 1, Novatian de Trin. 16, and the Synod of Antioch (Routh’s Rel. Sacr. III. pp. 290, 293). The Arian controversy however gave a different turn to the exegesis of the passage. The Arians fastened upon the expression πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως, and drew from it the inference that the Son was a created being. The great use which they made of the text appears from the document in Hilary, Fragm. Hist. Op. II. p. 644. The right answer to this false interpretation we have already seen. Many orthodox fathers however, not satisfied with this, transferred the expression into a new sphere, and maintained that πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως describes the Incarnate Christ. By so doing they thought to cut up the Arian argument by the roots. As a consequence of this interpretation, they were obliged to understand the κτίσις and the κτίζεσθαι in the context of the new spiritual creation, the καινὴ κτίσις of 2 Cor. v. 17, Gal. vi. 15. Thus interpreted, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως here becomes nearly equivalent to πρωτότοκος ἐν πολλοῖς ἀδελφοῖς in Rom. viii. 29. The arguments alleged in favour of this interpretation are mainly twofold: (1) That, if applied to the Divine nature, πρωτότοκος would contradict μονογενὴς which elsewhere describes the nature of the Eternal Son. But those who maintained, and rightly maintained, that πρωτότοκος (Luke ii. 7) did not necessarily imply that the Lord’s mother had other sons, ought not to have been led away by this fallacy. (2) That πρωτότοκος in other passages (e.g. Rom. viii. 29, Rev. i. 5, and just below, ver. 18) is applied to the humanity of Christ. But elsewhere, in Heb. i. 6 ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον κ.τ.λ., the term must almost necessarily refer to the pre-existence of the Son; and moreover the very point of the Apostle’s language in the text (as will be seen presently) is the parallelism in the two relations of our Lord—His relation to the natural creation, as the Eternal Word, and His relation to the spiritual creation, as the Head of the Church—so that the same word (πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως ver. 15, πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν ver. 18) is studiously used of both. A false exegesis is sure to bring a nemesis on itself. Logical consistency required that this interpretation should be carried farther; and Marcellus, who was never deterred by any considerations of prudence, took this bold step. He extended the principle to the whole context, including even εὶκὼν τοῦ ἀοράτου Θεοῦ, which likewise he interpreted of our Lord’s humanity. In this way a most important Christological passage was transferred into an alien sphere; and the strongest argument against Arianism melted away in the attempt to combat Arianism on false grounds. The criticisms of Eusebius on Marcellus are perfectly just: Eccl. Theol. i. 20 (p. 96) ταῦτα περὶ τῆς θεότητος τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ, κἂν μὴ Μαρκέλλῳ δοκῇ, εἴρηται· οὐ γὰρ ἂν περὶ τῆς σαρκὸς ἂν εἶπεν τοσαῦτα ὁ θεῖος ἀπόστολος κ.τ.λ.; comp. ib. ii. 9 (p. 67), iii. 6 sq. (p. 175), c. Marcell. i. 1 (p. 6), i. 2 (p. 12), ii. 3 (pp. 43, 46 sq., 48). The objections to this interpretation are threefold: (1) It disregards the history of the terms in their connexion with the pre-Christian speculations of Alexandrian Judaism. These however, though directly or indirectly they were present to the minds of the earlier fathers and kept them in the right exegetical path, might very easily have escaped a writer in the fourth century. (2) It shatters the context. To suppose that such expressions as ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα [τὰ] ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ [[τὰ] ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, or τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ... ἔκτισται, or τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν, refer to the work of the Incarnation, is to strain language in a way which would reduce all theological exegesis to chaos; and yet this, as Marcellus truly saw, is a strictly logical consequence of the interpretation which refers πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως to Christ’s humanity. (3) It takes no account of the cosmogony and angelology of the false teachers against which the Apostle’s exposition here is directed (see above, pp. 101 sq., 110 sq., 181 sq.). This interpretation is given by St Athanasius c. Arian. ii. 62 sq. (I. p. 419 sq.) and appears again in Greg. Nyss. c. Eunom. ii (II. pp. 451–453, 492), ib. iii (II. p. 540–545), de Perf. (III. p. 290 sq.), Cyril Alex. Thes. 25, p. 236 sq., de Trin. Dial. iv. p. 517 sq., vi. p. 625 sq., Anon. Chrysost. Op. VIII. p. 223, appx. (quoted as Chrysostom by Photius Bibl. 277). So too Cyril expresses himself at the Council of Ephesus, Labb. Conc. III. p. 652 (ed. Colet.). St Athanasius indeed does not confine the expression to the condescension (συγκατάβασις) of the Word in the Incarnation, but includes also a prior condescension in the Creation of the world (see Bull Def. Fid. Nic. iii. 9. § 1, with the remarks of Newman Select Treatises of S. Athanasius I. pp. 278, 368 sq.). This double reference however only confuses the exegesis of the passage still further, while theologically it might lead to very serious difficulties. In another work, Expos. Fid. 3 (I. p. 80), he seems to take a truer view of its meaning. St Basil, who to an equally clear appreciation of doctrine generally unites a sounder exegesis than St Athanasius, while mentioning the interpretation which refers the expression to Christ’s human nature, himself prefers explaining it of the Eternal Word; c. Eunom. iv (I. p. 292). Of the Greek commentators on this passage, Chrysostom’s view is not clear; Severianus (Cram. Cat. p. 303) and Theodoret understand it rightly of the Eternal Word; while Theodore of Mopsuestia (Cram. Cat. pp. 306, 308, 309, Rab. Maur. Op. VI. p. 511 sq. ed. Migne) expresses himself very strongly on the opposite side. Like Marcellus, he carries the interpretation consistently into the whole context, explaining ἐν αὐτῷ to refer not to the original creation (κτίσις) but to the moral re-creation (ἀνάκτισις), and referring εἰκών to the Incarnation in the same way. At a later date, when the pressure of an immediate controversy has passed away, the Greek writers generally concur in the earlier and truer interpretation of the expression. Thus John Damascene (de Orthod. Fid. iv. 8, I. p. 258 sq.), Theophylact (ad loc.), and Œcumenius (ad loc.), all explain it of Christ’s Divine Nature. Among Latin writers, there is more diversity of interpretation. While Marius Victorinus (adv. Arium i. 24, p. 1058, ed. Migne), Hilary of Poictiers (Tract. in ii Ps. § 28 sq. I. p. 47 sq. de Trin. viii. 50, II. p. 248 sq.), and Hilary the commentator (ad loc.), take it of the Divine Nature, Augustine (Expos. ad Rom. 56, III. p. 914) and Pelagius (ad loc.) understand it of the Incarnate Christ. This sketch of the history of the interpretation of the expression would not be complete without a reference to another very different explanation. Isidore of Pelusium, Epist. iii. 31 (p. 268), would strike out a new path of interpretation altogether (εἰ καὶ δόξαιμί τισι καινοτέραν ἑρμηνίας ἀνατέμνειν ὁδόν), and for the passive πρωτότοκος suggests reading the active πρωτοτόκος, alluding to the use of this latter word in Homer (Il. xvii. 5 μήτηρ πρωτοτόκος ... οὐ πρὶν εἰδυῖα τόκοιο: comp. Plat. Theæt. 151 C ὥσπερ αἱ πρωτοτόκοι). Thus St Paul is made to say that Christ πρῶτον τετοκέναι, τουτέστι, πεποιηκέναι τὴν κτίσιν.

216I. 16]

← πάσης κτίσεως· 16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, [τὰ] →

16. ὅτι κ.τ.λ.] We have in this sentence the justification of the title given to the Son in the preceding clause, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως. It must therefore be taken to explain the sense in which this title is used. Thus connected, it shows that the πρωτότοκος Himself is not included in πᾶσα κτίσις; for the expression used is not τὰ ἄλλα or τὰ λοιπά, but τὰ πάντα ἐκτίσθη–words which are absolute and comprehensive, and will admit no exception.

Source

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

aqwsed12345

@Vanderhoven7

"but isn't the content of my manufactured conversation exactly what you believe?"

It rather sounds more like a childish caricature of it...

It's not the Catholic doctrine, but a medieval superstitious idea that God created two kinds of eternity: for the good, heaven, where everything is beautiful and good, and for the bad, hell, which is a big torture chamber, and we can be terrified for the rest of our lives about which one we will end up in. A baptized person is predestined for salvation, but his realistic choice is to consciously reject and play away this salvation. God did not create hell; that creature with free will: the free choice of the angel and man, the continuation of life without God for an eternity. Damnation is a conscious and intentional persistence in sin, that is, a complete lack of repentance.

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

aqwsed12345

@Vanderhoven7

We do not know exactly what God revealed to Adam, certainly more than what is mentioned in Genesis. So your "argument" is nothing more than mockery: why did God have to tell Adam about everything? By the way, the concept of Primordial revelation is worth mentioning here.

In Catholic theology, there is an opinion that the natural-supernatural revelation given to the first human remained in subsequent generations, but there was no unanimous opinion about its content. Generally, it included knowledge of one God and natural moral obligations, and the report on the Fall and the promise of the Redeemer (Genesis 1-3). It was also not clarified how this revelation remained, how divine providence ensured its preservation. The Church never made it an official teaching, it always remained an opinion, and even the teaching authority condemned the stricter form of traditionalism, i.e., that the idea of God is only accessible from tradition. In contrast, it proclaimed that man could read God's existence from the world of reason in the created world (D 1622, 1785), and did not see the means of salvation for fallen humanity in the primordial revelation (D 1785). For the Church, only the Old and New Testament revelations are binding.

Historically, the Church Fathers spoke of the seeds of truth (logoi spermatikoi) found in the world and that philosophy can be traced back to Moses. There is a possibility that the pre-Old Testament revelation (Adam, Noah) would have passed on to paganism. In the 15th-16th centuries, discoveries showed that millions of pagans lived outside Europe, and primordial revelation was posited for them as a possibility of salvation. From the 18th century, missionaries reported that natural peoples also have knowledge of morality and the origin of humanity, so many began to explain the connection between Christianity and human nature on this basis, but they forgot about the real difference between nature and grace. Naturally, they based the transmission of the primordial revelation on the Bible's chronology, thinking that it was easy to bridge the 5-6 thousand years from Adam to Christ.

The French traditionalist trend denied that human reason could recognize God, the creator, on its own, so it explained the existing concept of God from some primordial revelation. At the turn of the 19th/20th centuries, religious historians W. Schmidt, W. Koppers sought to prove the existence of primordial revelation from the monotheism found in various backward tribes and some remembrance of a paradisiacal state. However, they did not rely sufficiently on the philosophy and psychology of religion. Others were satisfied to refer only to the unity of moral consciousness and the religious imagination of man as a memory of primordial revelation.

Historically, the preservation of primordial revelation cannot be proven, but as far as God has revealed His universal will to save (1 Tim 2:5-6), we know that humanity has always been under the enlightening and motivating influence of grace. It is not necessary for man to specifically clarify this spiritual-moral existence, but it cannot be denied that from it a reflex-like behavior may have arisen. Thus, man could have a sense of his creation, his dependence on divinity, the difference between good and evil, moral responsibility, and could harbor a tentative hope for some realization of justice. Under the influence of grace, these experiences could be constantly renewed.

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

aqwsed12345

@Vanderhoven7

Obviously, what has not been revealed already to Adam, cannot exist, what kind of stupid argument is this? Eternal damnation is explicitly taught in the Bible, compare: Deut 32:22, Is 33:11.14, Is 66:24, Dan 12:2, Psalm 21:10, Mt 8:12; Mt 25:41, Mt 25:46, Mt 3:12; Mk 9:43-49, Lk 3:16-17, Lk 13:28, Rom 2,6-9, 2Tess 1:6-9, 2Pt 2:4, Rev 14:11, Rev 20:10.15

@EasyPrompt

I see that you have retained even the only teaching of the WTS that really only they hold: the two-class doctrine of "salvation". On the other hand, in the New Testament there are not two separate classes of salvation, all believers are called to one hope (Ephesians 4:4), as soon as a baptized person is born again, and so on. How absurd that even 1 Corinthians 15:51, which you quoted, says "we will all be changed", but you think that this is not about "all", but only some privileged class within the faithful. There is no such thing as "anointed class" and "Jonadab class", there are the faithful who were baptized and became children of God. Please read these about this disgusting doctrine:

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

aqwsed12345

The human body and soul

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

aqwsed12345

@enoughisenough

The Satanic claim "you will not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) has nothing to do with the immortality of the soul. God proposed here that if they break His command, then "in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die." From this, it is apparent that here "you will die" did not refer to the literal, physical death, but the consequence of it, that man will die, or (his body) will return to the dust. Here, the word "death" does not refer to physical death but spiritual death, separation from God, and loss of grace.

"In the day that you sin, you will die" - When you sin, I will take away my grace, eternal life, and you will die.

When Satan says, "you will not surely die," he means, "Just go ahead and sin; God will not fulfill His threat (he's just bluffing)."

Then the "dispute" with Satan was not about the immortality of the soul but whether humanity will lose God's special privilege that the human body is free from the compulsion of death. God warned Adam not to eat from 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil', or he would die on that day (Gen 2:17). Adam and Eve ate from it anyway, but did not die a biological death >on that day<, as they lived much longer (Gen 5:5). Adam, however, lost fellowship with God (he was driven out of Eden) and eternal life (he could no longer eat from the tree of life, Gen 3:23-24). Adam's (man's) death on "that day" was spiritual-religious death (cf. Eph 2:1), which led to biological death. So the "death" with which God threatens man is twofold: the death of supernatural life (i.e., loss of sanctifying grace) and [as a result] the mortal transformation of the body: before the Fall, man could have not died; since then, man cannot not die.

This of course is avoided by the Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation, and they want to explain away the "day" here as exactly a thousand years. But why would it be a thousand years "on that day"? I know there's a biblical statement, "With the Lord, a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day" (2 Peter 3:8), but that doesn't make it applicable here (this is a leap in logic), so this is entirely a leap of logic. Also, we know that this is metaphorical language, illustrating that God is outside time, and before Him, a day is not literally exactly a thousand years but eternity.

The Peter's part (which I say again, they arbitrarily tie together with the Moses' part using biblical leap logic) is obviously only symbolic: especially since the context does not explain how Adam "died" >that day<, but why the Last Judgment day is delaying in human terms, the answer: because in God's view our "time" is just a moment. "A thousand years" is an ancient analogy: a very long time.

And then, as I mentioned, the subject of the debate was not whether man has an immortal soul but whether he will die physically (i.e., whether God will carry out the threat, or be afraid that man has become like God, autonomous, or self-legislating).

So if we insist on taking the bodily death on that day literally, as Jehovah's Witnesses do, but rule out the false excuse, then Satan would be right: man did not die that day but lived much longer.

Also, since this is relevant to the topic, I'll mention that Jehovah's Witnesses often point out that why death would be a punishment if their souls would live on in heaven. But the question is inherently flawed, since we don't say that. Even then, it wouldn't be a punishment, a shame that this hypothetical scenario has nothing to do with what we teach. Just at first glance:

The first human pair's soul did not go to heaven, THEN when they died. So this is about the Old Testament, the deceased before Christianity. Before Christ's redemption, heaven was closed; then the deceased were all together in the underworld (in Sheol) in a joyless, sad existence, even if they were chosen for eternal bliss. Though separate from the damned (cf. Ez 32:17-32), this place - like a vestibule of hell - was not a place of joy but of silent sorrow, where they did not even praise God. This differs entirely from heaven, which only Christ opened through His death on the cross. From then on, death became joy, and from then on, the dead saints praise God, and from then on, they can intercede for us. So it did not yet happen that Christ "ascended on high, leading a host of captives" (Eph 4:8)
We do not say that the role of heaven is that man lives there eternally without a body, like a spiritual being. Because heaven here does not mean a spiritual realm but a state of cosmic glorification.
We also confess the resurrection of the body. Immortality and resurrection relate to each other as shell and core, beginning and end. The resurrection can only be imagined if life beyond death can be envisioned at all.
However, resurrection does not mean that man "comes out" of heaven (since as I wrote above, it's not a place), but that the body also rises and is glorified and unites with the already glorified soul.

Attributing continued existence to man after physical death does not eliminate the crisis of death. Even one who now goes directly to heaven in spirit after death does not "skip over" death. Another reason is that, as I explained in my previous comment, Adam could not have gone to a "good" place after his death; at best, he went to Limbo Patrum, which, though better than hell, was still a joyless, sad existence, one of hopelessness - who knew then, for millennia, that there would be redemption, especially extended to them?

It also belongs here that the idea that the body is the prison of the soul, like a garment, is a belief of Platonism; however, Catholic theology does not hold this but that the two form a close unity, and the state of the soul outside the body is not a "normal" state but a vis maior.

22

"Apostasy"

by Zilgee in

the so called apostates of first century later became the catholic church.

these apostates like saint athanasius, theologian, ecclesiastical statesman, and egyptian national leader decided which books would be part of the bible.

we are now following what they decided.

aqwsed12345

Good lectures to watch

22

"Apostasy"

by Zilgee in

the so called apostates of first century later became the catholic church.

these apostates like saint athanasius, theologian, ecclesiastical statesman, and egyptian national leader decided which books would be part of the bible.

we are now following what they decided.

aqwsed12345

My "favorite" denomination is Mormon; I once debated a similar topic there.

Mormon assertion: The Mormon Church is God's only true church.

Criticism: How do we know this?

Mormon: From the fact that the Holy Spirit has testified.

Criticism: To whom does the Holy Spirit testify?

Mormon: To everyone who sincerely asks God in prayer.

Criticism: And those who did not receive such an answer to their prayer?

Mormon: They did not pray sincerely enough.

Criticism: And for those to whom the Holy Spirit testified regarding another denomination? My friend is a member of the X Church, and the Holy Spirit told him that the X Church is God's true church. How can this be?

Mormon: That was not the Holy Spirit, but Satan, who pretended to be the Holy Spirit!

Criticism: How can we know when it's the Holy Spirit speaking and not Satan pretending to be the Holy Spirit?

Mormon: From the fact that the Holy Spirit confirms God's true church, and Satan works against it.

Criticism: So we know which is God's true church from the Holy Spirit confirming it, but we know when it's the Holy Spirit and not Satan speaking as the Holy Spirit from the fact that it's the Holy Spirit that testifies to God's true church – so we know nothing, as there is no point of reference anywhere?

The Mormon ended the debate at this point...

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

aqwsed12345

There are several arguments in the Bible against the monistic anthropology view:

1. God is a spirit (pneuma) without a body, so there is not necessarily a need for a physical body to talk about personality. If personality does not depend on the body in an absolute sense, then we can not only say that we are a body, but also that we have a body.

2. The Old Testament primarily emphasizes human unity, but this does not mean it is strictly monistic:

- the Old Testament also contains references to the inner being of man

- several theologians (e.g., E. Jacob) showed that the term "heart" in the Old Testament refers to the inner being of man, which differs from the external man (cf. Ps 73:26)

- Prov 20:27 "The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all his innermost parts."

- in the Old Testament, we see faint hints that there is life after the death of the body: Ps 73:24-26, Ps 49:6-16, Prov 15:24.

- the Old Testament strongly condemns necromancy (Lev 20:6; Deut 18:9-12; 2Kings 21:6; 23:24; Isa 8:19-20; 19:3; 1Sam 28:3-25), which at least makes it likely that Jews generally believed in the existence of the soul after death. Notably, while the prophets often ridiculed the worship of other gods by pointing out that these gods did not exist, they never refuted the inquiry from the dead by denying the continuation of the souls of the deceased!

- the intertestamental literature clearly represents the view that the soul continues to live after the body has been placed in the grave (it is unlikely that this would be entirely contrary to the Old Testament Hebrew view, rather, what was present in seed form in the Old Testament became an explicitly formulated belief before the New Testament times, openly professed by the Pharisees - with whom Paul, even as a Christian, agreed - against the Sadducees)

3. The New Testament clarifies the divine revelation in many ways; the biblical revelation is gradual, so the Old Testament's image of man also becomes clearer in the light of the New Testament's teaching.

- Paul, along with the Pharisees, not only believed in angels and resurrection but also in a soul separate from the body, as he testified during a debate

- Acts 23:6-8 "But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, 'Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!' And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided. For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both."

- We also see this duality in Paul's letters:

* 1 Cor 2:11 "For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God."

* 1 Cor 5:3 "For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed."

* 1 Cor 5:5 "deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

* 1 Cor 7:34 "There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world—how she may please her husband."

* 2 Cor 4:16 "Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day." (from the context, it is clear that this is about the body and soul)

* 2 Cor 7:1 "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

* Col 2:5 "For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ."

- James also spoke of the body and soul: James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

- in the New Testament, we see that the immaterial part of man continues to live after the death of the body: Mt 22:31-32 "But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." The future resurrection guarantees that they are alive now after their death (which is expressed in the present tense: God is their God now, not just in the past!)

- the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31) suggests that people continue to live in a conscious state between their death and resurrection, even though their bodies rest in the grave. It is not convincing to object that Jesus only used a popular legend here, for if the situation described in the parable cannot be true, then Jesus would have reinforced a mistake (as evidenced by the fact that Christians in almost every age took this parable as teaching!)

- Jesus' spirit (pneuma) separated from his body upon death and went to heaven with the thief's spirit (while their bodies were buried). Lk 23:46 "Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (pneuma)!' And having said this he breathed his last."

- Lk 23:43 "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.'"

Monistic interpretation: "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise." (The word "today" refers to when Jesus makes the promise, not to when it is fulfilled.)
Objection 1: The word "today" would then be unnecessary redundancy, especially unlikely when someone is speaking with difficulty!
Objection 2: The natural reading is that Jesus, using his favorite expression ("Truly, I tell you"), emphasizes his statement: "Today you will be with me in paradise!"
Objection 3: The promise's immediacy makes Jesus' words especially comforting: even today!

- Stephen's spirit (pneuma) went to God upon death: Acts 7:59-60 "And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit (pneuma).' Falling to his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them.' And when he had said this, he died." Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God, ready to receive him (7:56).

- Paul was convinced that death meant a joyful communion with Christ, and in this state, separated from our bodies, we are "naked" spirits, waiting for our resurrection and "putting on" the imperishable body: 2 Cor 5:1-10, Phil 1:21-24.

- The Epistle to the Hebrews speaks about worshiping God in the presence of the spirits of the righteous made perfect around God's throne: Heb 12:22-24.

- In the Book of Revelation, the deceased saints are in conscious communion with God: 4:4, 6:9-11, 7:9-17, 20:4.

- Peter speaks of the torment of the spirits of the unbelievers between their death and the final judgment: 1 Pet 3:19-20, 2 Pet 2:9.

The view of monism, in the light of the New Testament's teaching (as traditionally understood by Christians), thus does not hold up, no matter how popular it has become in recent decades. The rest of the text also confirms that the duality of the spirit-soul and body – a feature of human nature – is among the fundamental tenets of biblical anthropology. However, between 1930 and 1960, it became fashionable among theologians to deny this. Under the influence of J. Pedersen's Old Testament interpretations and R. Bultmann's New Testament interpretations, and due to their disillusionment from the 19th-century idealism, authors en masse insisted that according to the 'Hebrew way of thinking,' man forms a coordinated, indivisible (psychosomatic) unity: he does not have a body, he himself is the body, and so on. They were right in emphasizing that, by stressing the unity of personality in biblical thinking, they discarded the long-standing mixture of Christian faith and vulgar Platonism. Yet under the influence of academic fashion, they too quickly abandoned the doctrine of dual structure. Though this decision was relatively weak and methodologically dubious, they did not take the time to review it. Ultimately, this elicited a healthy reaction. Robert H. Gundry, in his recently published work on the concept of the body, reconstructs the biblical interpretation of almost every Christian generation on this issue. The duality is unmistakably outlined in the New Testament, as in contemporary Jewish religion; moreover, this view is presupposed by the doctrine of the intermediate state, i.e., the survival of the spirit-soul without the body between death and resurrection. As for the Old Testament, despite the vagueness of the concepts and the ambiguity of the words, it would be a mistake to think that this duality is not present in it. We often find references to the inner life of man, which the Old Testament authors call the heart.

John W. Cooper's relatively new study also challenges the monistic stance, advocating instead for a "holistic dualism" (Body, Soul, and Life Everlasting: Biblical Anthropology and the Monism-Dualism Debate, Eerdmans, 1989); other authors who have argued for a dualistic view in recent years include W. Grudem: Systematic Theology; R.H. Gundry: Soma in Biblical Theology With Emphasis on Pauline Anthropology; H. Ridderbos: Paul: An Outline of His Theology; John Murray: The Nature of Man; C. Ryrie: Basic Theology; C. Venema: The Promise of the Future.