aqwsed12345
JoinedPosts by aqwsed12345
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Trinity Statements in the Dead Sea Scrolls
by Sea Breeze indr. ken johnson has identified several statements in the dead sea scrolls that predict that god would visit the earth as a man... as the messiah.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljrfvytjhve&ab_channel=kenjohnson%28biblefacts%29 .
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Trinity Statements in the Dead Sea Scrolls
by Sea Breeze indr. ken johnson has identified several statements in the dead sea scrolls that predict that god would visit the earth as a man... as the messiah.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljrfvytjhve&ab_channel=kenjohnson%28biblefacts%29 .
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aqwsed12345
slimboyfat
"Why doesn’t that count?"
Because we take into account not only that there is a difference in theological background between the OT and the NT, the most important thing is that it was written in a different language, so here it is not necessary to look at the general sense in which "elohim" is used in the OT, but to whom and in what sense "theos" was used in the NT originally written in Greek. And it is decisive: no inspired biblical text originally written in Greek calls anyone other than the true God "theos" in a positive sense.
"What Heb 1.4 says is that Jesus “became” better than the angels because he inherited a more excellent name than theirs."
Hebrews 1 speaks partly of the supremacy which he already possessed from the beginning (meaning his deity), since he is the only one begotten of the Father, and on the other hand of the glory which he received only after his resurrection and ascension. The two are not sharply separated in the text, for example in verse 10 it is about the creation of the world, it was obviously before those mentioned in the verses 3-4: "made purification of sins", etc. So this part is about his glorification as a man, i.e. that after his resurrection and ascension he received the name "Lord" in terms of his human nature, this is what Philippians 2 is about.
"On the other hand it makes no sense to talk about God himself “becoming” better than angels."
However it makes perfect sense, if we confess not only the one-essence deity of the Son with the Father in the Nicene sense, but also his dual nature in the Chalcedonian sense, according to which he took on human nature at the time of the Incarnation and will no longer put it down. And what the Father did in relation to the Son, he did not "with himself", since we are not Sabellian modalists either. Here it is about how the Father glorified the man Christ.
"Which manuscript are you saying had a full stop in John 1.1c?"
The ancient manuscripts did not use full stops, commas, etc., and I did not claim that such an NT manuscript exists, but that this is how the Arians interpreted away John 1:1c.
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Trinity Statements in the Dead Sea Scrolls
by Sea Breeze indr. ken johnson has identified several statements in the dead sea scrolls that predict that god would visit the earth as a man... as the messiah.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljrfvytjhve&ab_channel=kenjohnson%28biblefacts%29 .
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aqwsed12345
The NT never calls God's angels 'THEOS', and in the case of Jesus, we are not just relying on the application of the word "THEOS" in the singular and without any diminutive appendages, but on such attributes (omniscience, beginninglessness in time, prayer hearing, worship, etc.) which cannot apply to created angels.
On the one hand, the apostle sees the form of God in terms of equality with God, and on the other hand, we know that angels are in a lower form of existence than God. Christ has a higher dignity than the angels, according to the beginning of chapter 1 of the letter to the Hebrews. Thus, his divine form of existence cannot be categorized in the language that occasionally calls angels (or human judges) gods.
The NT manuscripts did not differentiate between "THEOS" with a lowercase, and "THEOS" with upper case, they distinguished whether Nomina Sacra were used or not. For example P46 gives a very interesting example in the text of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, in which references to “God” and “Lord” (in reference to Jesus) are written as Nomina Sacra, but the so-called (thus false) “gods” and “lords” are written out in their entirety:
“With regard then to eating food sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol in this world is nothing, and that there is no God [ΘΣ] but one. If after all there are so-called gods [ΘΕOI], whether in heaven or on earth, as there are many gods [ΘΕOI] and many lords [KYPIOI], yet for us there is one God [ΘΣ], the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ [KΣ, IHΣ XPΣ], through whom are all things and through whom we live."
"THEOS" when applied to Jesus is always 'nomen sacrum' in the ancient MSS, so it should be translated with a capital letter.
Fun fact: The Arians of the 4th century interpreted John 1:1c by putting a full stop after «God was», and "the Word" was placed as the beginning of sence in the next verse.
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The ascension of King David to heaven
by Leolaia inthere is a rather obscure statement in acts 2:34 that specifies that "david himself never ascended to heaven".
the obvious question that arises from this remark is -- who ever believed that david ascended to heaven?
to answer this, we need to look where else but to the pseudepigrapha.
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aqwsed12345
According to the WTS, such great figures of the past as King David or John the Baptist did not make it to heaven. And if they couldn't make it, how could we, simple believers, ever hope to get there, right? However, it's worth continuing to observe how the WTS argues: The WTS poses a misleading question. No Christian denomination's theology claims that "every good person goes to heaven". This theory might be popular among non-Christians, but only someone who does not know the Bible could make such a claim. Again, examining the broader context helps us with the correct interpretation.
Peter wants to prove that Jesus' resurrection was prophesied, and the Old Testament prophecy could not be fulfilled in David, because he did not rise like Jesus. Only Jesus' body was not found in the tomb. This contrast wants to emphasize Jesus' resurrection, but it does not reveal anything about David's state in eternity.
Acts chapter 2 uses David's prophecy about the physical resurrection. Peter makes it clear that David's prophecy could not refer to David, because David died, and his body experienced decay, his grave is still visible as proof of this. The contrast is between David's decomposed corpse in the grave and the living, immortally resurrected Christ. David's body saw corruption, Christ's body did not, but rose immortally and incorruptible. Christ is therefore clearly superior to David, and therefore He is Lord of David.
The Watchtower quotes Acts 2:34 about David, who did not ascend to heaven and claims that he will be resurrected for earthly eternal life - instead of heavenly life. However, just because David did not immediately go to heaven at the time of his death, this does not mean that he was excluded from the Old Testament saints who went to heaven at Christ's resurrection.
Moreover, far from the Watchtower using this verse to prove whether David has or does not have heavenly hope, the context does not mention David's resurrection at all, but rather Christ's and how He fulfilled the promises given to David. Thus, we see that when Jehovah's Witnesses use this verse as evidence for their view on David's resurrection, it is completely unfounded.
The translation of this verse is intended to support the idea that the deceased go into a "death sleep" after their death, and even the best do not go up to "heaven". Concerning the doctrine itself, we only note two things: (1) No biblical Christian denomination teaches that "every good person" goes to heaven. The condition for salvation ("being saved") is faith in Jesus (Jn 1:12-13), not living a good life. (2) The souls of the deceased do not go to the "heavan" after their death, as we are not talking about astronauts or airplane pilots, but to heaven. There is a difference between the two, as under the heavan we usually understand the atmosphere or outer space, under heaven we understand the place of God, his presence, the place where he is, that is, the invisible sphere of his kingdom.
However, it is more important now to examine the correct translation of the verse. In the Greek text of Westcott and Hort, it appears: "οὐ γὰρ Δαυεὶδ ἀνέβη εἰς τοὺς οὐρανούς" (see The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, WTB&TS, 1985. p. 527.). The correct translation of the text is: "For David did not ascend to the heavens...". Regarding the misinterpretation, consider the following:
Did you notice that the Society does not quote Acts 2:34 correctly? Its exact text is this: 'For David did not ascend to the heavens', but Christ, about whom David wrote in Psalm 110:1. Again, just observe the text itself! What do you think, was Peter really talking about David and his eternal fate, or was he preaching about Jesus? I believe Peter used David's lines to validate Jesus' resurrection. He is proving that David was not talking about himself in the psalm (since he died, his grave is well known, 2:29), but prophesied about Jesus (cf. Mt 22:43). Shouldn't David's fate be left in the hands of his Risen Lord?
We see another example of how the Watchtower Society rewrites, falsifies the text of the Bible in order to support its own teachings, and prints and distributes this in hundreds of millions of copies among the people seeking God. Is this an honest practice on the part of the translators and the publisher? Shouldn't we rather let the Scriptures form people's lives with their unaltered text? Can it really be said of Jehovah's Witnesses in the light of Bible forgery that they are the true religion because the "members revere the Bible as God's Word"?
Our understanding is aided by examining the broader context. Peter wants to prove that Jesus' resurrection was prophesied, and the Old Testament prophecy could not be fulfilled in David, as he did not rise in a manner similar to Jesus. Only Jesus' body was not found in the tomb. This juxtaposition wants to emphasize Jesus' resurrection, but it does not reveal anything about David's condition in eternity.
The real question that Jehovah's Witnesses need to answer is where David will be in the resurrection? The Watchtower teaches that Old Testament prophets will be resurrected on earth, as they are not members of the 144,000 chosen Jehovah's Witnesses who go to heaven. In contrast, the Bible teaches that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be in heaven. Jesus said, "But I say to you, many will come from east and west, and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."
So what is the correct answer, did David go to heaven or not? In the end, yes. Two aspects need to be considered: 1. When David put the quoted text on paper, he was still on earth. 2. Today, David's soul is in heaven. However, his body has not yet risen, and it is not in heaven, as Acts 2:29 suggests.
https://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/do-the-old-testament-saints-receive-a-heavenly-reward/
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Trinity Statements in the Dead Sea Scrolls
by Sea Breeze indr. ken johnson has identified several statements in the dead sea scrolls that predict that god would visit the earth as a man... as the messiah.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljrfvytjhve&ab_channel=kenjohnson%28biblefacts%29 .
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aqwsed12345
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Romans 9:5
by aqwsed12345 inna28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .
nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.
god, who is over all, be praised forever.
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"Outside the realms" of the words meaning?
by Blotty ini was recently doing some research and came across this curious quite from dr beduhn - i can't say how valid it is or if he actually said it (source linked).
but this got me thinking i don't think there is anything in any bible where it is a "deliberate" distortion or the words go against the "possible range of meanings the greek" could have.
i know beduhn is not considered an authority however he does have a point - if its in the range of meanings it is by no means a mistranslation & cannot be pointed out as such.
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"Outside the realms" of the words meaning?
by Blotty ini was recently doing some research and came across this curious quite from dr beduhn - i can't say how valid it is or if he actually said it (source linked).
but this got me thinking i don't think there is anything in any bible where it is a "deliberate" distortion or the words go against the "possible range of meanings the greek" could have.
i know beduhn is not considered an authority however he does have a point - if its in the range of meanings it is by no means a mistranslation & cannot be pointed out as such.
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Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"
by aqwsed12345 inthe narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.
the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).
he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.
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aqwsed12345
The Mortality of the Soul in the Bible?
The Holy Scriptures teach the resurrection and glorification of humans, proclaiming the transformation of their souls, their entire existence, and ultimately the whole world. While the Apostolic Creed spoke of the resurrection of the body (Lat. caro), the Nicene Creed did not delve into the "technical" details, it only anchored the hope of resurrection (people resurrect, not just some parts of them). Because the Bible's view of humanity and salvation are intertwined, any concept of the fate of the soul that is foreign to the Scriptures is always based on a perception of humanity and salvation that is also foreign to the Scriptures.
The following will discuss the idea of the mortality of the soul or the concept of "soul sleep". According to this, the soul dies along with the physical body and either perishes or remains unconscious ("soul sleep") until the resurrection. This concept is based on the Old Testament's view of humanity and has repeatedly emerged within the Western Church. Today, mainly Adventist-background and rationalist groups (like Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphian Community) hold this belief. They claim that their conception of the soul and its fate was originally part of Jewish-Christian faith. Therefore, in the following, we will analyze biblical passages often cited by them.
"For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other." (Ecclesiastes 3:19)
Claim: The human "soul" is the same as the animal's: mortal.
Rebuttal: According to Ecclesiastes, life without God is in vain. The author does not make a declaration but ponders (thinks, observes, raises questions, and leaves it open, verses 18 and 21). He does not talk about the state of man after death but about the similarity in the earthly fate of man and beast; they both eventually die (verse 19). Their bodies will become dust (verse 20), but where the "soul" of man and beast goes after death is unknown to him (verse 21). The revelation took place in a progressive manner on many topics: for example, Abraham or Solomon could have known almost nothing about the soul and its fate, Jesus said a lot, and even more was given to the apostles. Therefore, in this matter, we cannot refer to Old Testament texts without considering the later New Testament revelations. The translation "the same spirit is in each" [Heb. ruah echad laqol] can be misleading to today's reader, as the term "soul" may be understood differently than the biblical Hebrew term rúah. However, others translations are more accurate: "the same breath of life is in each." Returning to the arguments of Ecclesiastes 3, the finiteness of biological life may not lead animals but can lead humans to fear God and live their earthly lives differently through realization.
"The soul that sins shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
Claim: If a sinful soul can die, then the soul is mortal.
Rebuttal: Firstly, God, through the prophet, is contending against an Israeli proverb: "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge," meaning the children are punished for their fathers' sins. Ezekiel's message is clear: everyone is accountable for their own actions before God. Secondly, the literal translation ("which soul...") is misleading, as it merely means "whoever..." It's not about one "part" of a person, the soul (which proponents of soul mortality don't even consider a separate part), but about the whole person and their personal responsibility.
In other texts, the literal translations of the Bible can be misunderstood. Acts 3:23 "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from the people" - meaning everyone. Joshua 11:11 "And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them" - meaning everyone.
"Fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mt 10:28)
Claim: If the soul can also be "destroyed" along with the body, then the soul is mortal.
Rebuttal: Jesus is speaking to his disciples before sending them out to preach, preparing them for expected resistance (verses 23-27). He warns them not to fear men, who can only kill the body but not the soul (so they do have a soul); rather, they should fear God who can destroy both body and soul.
However, Jesus mentions hell as the place of destruction. This refers to the Valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, where there was a rubbish burn in Jesus' time. In the religious literature of the centuries between the Old and New Testaments, the image of this smoky valley merged with the underworld and final judgment. Jesus once uses this conception of the underworld in a parable (Lk 16:23, Greek: Hades). In most other New Testament texts, however, hell primarily refers to the lake of fire after the final judgment, where the underworld and death are cast (Mk 9:43, James 3:6, Jude 7, Rev 19:20, 20:14). The key point is that hell will be the place of the sinners' destruction at the final judgment, so in Mt 10, Jesus is not primarily talking about the state of man after physical death or the underworld.
"The dead know nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Claim: The dead are in an unconscious state, waiting for the resurrection.
Rebuttal: The overall message of the book (Ecclesiastes) is that life, when viewed without God, seems vain. The beginning of Chapter 9 argues that anything can happen to anyone, whether good or bad, religious or irreligious (verses 1-2). It's not just that life can be unfair; humans, with their wickedness, exacerbate the troubles, and in the end, everyone dies (verse 3). However, as long as one is alive, there is hope (verse 4). The living at least know what will happen to them: they will surely die (and stand before God), but until then, they can change their fate (which gives hope). The dead, however, know nothing and are forgotten over time (verse 5). The earthly matters they fought for fade, and whether they once loved or hated no longer matters; they no longer partake in worldly affairs (verse 6). It's not that they lack consciousness or cease to exist but that they have fallen out of this world. Therefore, the lesson, indeed God's desire, is to enjoy the fleeting life – with work, honor, love, and good spirits – while it lasts (verses 7-9). For what counts beyond is what happened on Earth.
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth..." (Daniel 12:2)
Claim: The dead are "asleep", i.e., they either don't exist or their souls aren't conscious, so they wait for the resurrection.
Rebuttal: Firstly, the train of thought surrounding the quoted sentence deals only with Jews, not the entire humanity. Daniel's people will indeed go through great tribulation, but the time will come, and through Archangel Michael, those whose names are written down will be saved. Then, from among those who "sleep in the dust of the earth," many will awake (Heb. quts). Not everyone, just "many", and they are distinguished only by one criterion: were they "wise" (Heb. sakal)? A wise person is one who understands the sealed text about the latter days (12:10) and chooses God's side during the time of trial.
Secondly, the imagery of "sleep" is used throughout the Bible as a euphemistic expression for death. The biblical phrase simply likens the process of dying to another externally similar experience: falling asleep. It doesn't intend to make any claims about the nature of death or the whereabouts and condition of the deceased. If we were to consistently interpret this metaphor literally, as if it speaks about the "state" of death, it would actually affirm the existence of the soul or consciousness after death. This is because a sleeping person does not cease to exist; their consciousness still operates, always dreaming, even if they don't remember it.
"Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ..." (1 Corinthians 15:18)
Claim: Death is the "sleep" of the soul, an unconscious state.
Rebuttal: The term "fall asleep" (Greek: koimaomai) in the New Testament is a euphemism for "to die", and its exact English equivalent is "passed away" (Mt 9:24, 27:52, Jn 11:11, Acts 7:60, 13:36, 1Cor 15:6,18,20,51, 1Thess 4:13, 5:10).
It should be noted that the Bible does not teach that the human soul is intrinsically immortal. However, it does teach that humans aren't just a temporary combination of body and life force: their "soul" survives physical death. This is supported by biblical examples: the spirits of those who died in Noah's time (1Pt 3:19-20) and the souls of the martyred Christians (Rev 6:9-11) or Elijah and Moses talking to Jesus (Lk 9:28-31). Paul did not consider himself synonymous with his body; that's why he wished to depart from the body and be with the Lord (2Cor 5:8). He even considered it possible that he had an out-of-body experience (2Cor 12:2-3). He only considered death as gain because being with Christ was far better than earthly service (Phil 1:23). As the Jewish saints are also alive, for God is the God of the living (Mk 12:24-27); Jesus also promised that whoever believes in Him, "though he dies, will live" (Jn 11:25).
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Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?
by Sea Breeze inno mystery here.
they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.
so, why all the muck and fuss?
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aqwsed12345
You can't talk about the spiritual Israel here, precisely because the spiritual Israel does not break down into "tribes." So, whoever becomes a member of the Church, or the spiritual Israel through baptism, will not be given a "tribe." Tribes are physical descendants, so referencing Bible verses that talk about God accepting the Gentiles as well doesn't fit here. This is true, but it doesn't apply here because they are also Israel, but not according to the tribe. Here, however, we're talking about Israelites by tribe.The elect have two major groups in terms of origin, but the hope for both is the same (Ephesians 4:3-6): from the Jews (verses 4-7) and the Gentiles (from verse 9). The angel who marks God's faithful has God's sign or seal. In the past, soldiers and slaves also wore a mark. This marking reminds us of Ezekiel's prophecy, where the tau letter in the form of a cross is used for marking (9:4-6); the mark represents God's ownership. This marking is caricatured by the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:16). The word "seal" was also an early name for baptism.
Among the tribes, the tribe of Dan does not appear; perhaps intentionally, because according to Jewish belief, the Antichrist will come from the tribe of Dan. In its place is the tribe of Manasseh, Joseph's son.
Thus, the lineage of Dan, which especially marked itself with idolatry, is excluded, implying that all those who resemble them, those who love the world more than God, will share their fate and won't be part of the elect. Idolatry first appeared in Dan's lineage (Judges 18), and Jeroboam's calf was in his territory (1 Kings 12:30). Dan is not counted among the rest in the Book of Chronicles (1 Chronicles 4–8). Instead of the tribe of Ephraim, Joseph appears because Ephraim divided the unity of Israel. So, the 144,000, marked from every tribe of Israel, represent the Jews converted to Christianity. Then verse 9 continues:
"After this, I saw a huge crowd, too large to count, from every nation, tribe, people, and language standing in front of the throne and the Lamb."
Lest anyone think that the elect are only Christians converted from Jews, John is shown an even larger Christian army from the Gentiles, indicating that it's mainly the Gentiles who populate the Church, as the army of the chosen converted from the Gentiles is vast. The contrast is clear:In Revelation 7:4, only those "from the tribes of the sons of Israel" (from the tribes originating from Jacob's 12 sons) are mentioned. In contrast, Revelation 7:9 speaks of "every nation, tribe, people, and language." Note: for the sons of Israel, tribes are mentioned [since Israel was divided into tribes], while for the Gentiles, nations, peoples, and languages are discussed.
The symbolic number in 7:4 also expresses that since "their minds were blinded, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." (2 Corinthians 3:14-16). Therefore, the number of Jewish converts to Christianity is negligible compared to the converted from the Gentiles (7:9), who make up a great multitude.
The numbers and symbols in the Book of Revelation have led many astray over 2000 years, so it's essential to understand that this is just an expressive tool for conveying theological truth. The meanings of the numbers found in the Book of Revelation are:
- One-first: exclusivity, primacy, dignity
- Three and a half: limited time, defined period
- Four: universality
- Six: perfection, in a negative sense
- Seven: completeness, perfection in a positive sense
- Twelve: Israel, the entirety of the chosen people
- Thousand: multitude, large number
The numbers and symbols shed light on the theological truth God wanted to convey: this world will end, God will judge everything, then create a new world.Different tribal lists were not entirely consistent even in the Old Testament. Indeed, this fact shatters your attempt to entirely bracket the 144,000 Israelites. Because if the absence of the tribe of Dan did not bother the author of the Chronicles (even though only the Jews were the chosen people at that time), then today, when only a part of the chosen people are of Jewish origin, why should the omission of the tribe of Dan disturb us in accepting the Israelite origin of the 144,000 as John writes it?
"And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand from all the tribes of Israel were sealed." (Revelation 7:4)
It's hard for you to resist the clear teachings of the Bible and to reach far with the "leaping" Watchtower tactic for ideological ammunition when it's close to you in the Book of Revelation. The tribe of Joseph indeed existed, divided into two half-tribes: Ephraim, Manasseh. Basic things the Watchtower has to deny. In Numbers 2:17, the Levites marched in good order between Gad and Ephraim.
There is also a list in which the tribe of Joseph appears, and Levi too:
"These shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people, when you have crossed over the Jordan: Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph, and Benjamin. And these shall stand on Mount Ebal to curse: Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali." (Deuteronomy 27:12-13:)
You have to realize that God freely rearranged the twelve tribes even in the Old Testament. Here is a summary of the tribe lists. There may be inaccuracies in it, but the overall picture is sure to confuse the simple Jehovah's Witness who, blindly following his brochures, wants to exploit the Old Testament listings as something clear against the list in Revelation.http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/History-12Tribes.htm
The Watchtower Society claims that exactly 144,000 make up the heavenly hope class of believers. The 144,000 cannot be literally Jewish because (1) the tribal list does not match the Old Testament lists, (2) the tribe of Joseph never existed, (3) Dan and Ephraim are missing from it, (4) and the Levites were not counted as a separate tribe.
The Society overlooks several pieces of biblical information. More than two dozen tribe lists can be found in the Old Testament, only three of which match perfectly, and some are even incomplete (e.g., Deut. 33). According to the Bible, Joseph was Jacob's son, so he was indeed the founder of one of the 12 tribes. Tribe lists usually mention one of his two sons: Ephraim or Manasseh. The Revelation 7 list is unprecedented only in that both Joseph and Manasseh (father and one of his sons) appear as separate tribes. The reason is clearly the omission of Dan, who became an idolater (Lev. 24:11, Judges 18:1.30, 1 Kings 12:28-29), and Ephraim (Judges 17, Hosea 4:17). Levi is included because, although he had no land, he was originally Jacob's son and counted as a separate tribe by blood. Finally, it should be noted that in Moses' blessing, both the tribe of Joseph and the tribe of Levi are included (see Deut. 33). Perhaps they missed that in Revelation 7, the 144,000 are not yet in heaven but are on the earth. God's plagues and the earthly disaster can only be released after they are marked, sealed, to protect them from or during the plagues. It makes sense that they will all survive the great tribulation, or at least its beginning, doesn't it? But then how can they be identified with the "anointed" of the entire 2000 years, as the Society does? How have they been continuously called since the 1st century, and only about 9,000 remain today when all 144,000 are on the earth before and at the beginning of the "great tribulation"?
The 144,000 are about the converted Jews; the Society believes they cannot be Jews because the list of tribes does not match one of the Old Testament lists, but on the one hand, only three of the twenty tribe lists in the Old Testament match (!), and on the other hand, Dan and Ephraim are missing because of idolatry. It only differs in two respects and for good reason. This does not exclude that Chapter 7 talks about Israel. In fact, it specifically talks about the tribes of Israel. Whoever does not belong to a tribe is not Israel. Dan's tribe does not appear among the tribes, perhaps because according to Jewish belief, the Antichrist comes from the tribe of Dan. In its place is the tribe of Manasseh, the son of Joseph. So the tribe of Dan, which distinguished itself by idolatry, is excluded, meaning that all those who resemble it, love the world more than God, share its fate, and will not have a part in the election. Idolatry first reared its head in the tribe of Dan (Judges 18) and was in its district during Jeroboam's calf (1 Kings 12:30). Dan has not been counted with the others since the Book of Chronicles (Chron. 1: 4-8). Instead of the tribe of Ephraim, Joseph is mentioned because Ephraim divided Israel's unity.
Here we are talking about the converted members of physical Israel, which is divided into "tribes". So, whoever becomes a member of the church, that is, spiritual Israel, through baptism, will not receive a "tribe". The tribes are physical descendants.
There are two major groups of elect in terms of origin, but the hope for both is the same (Eph 4:3-6): from the Jews (verses 4-7) and the Gentiles (from verse 9). The angel who marks God's believers has God's sign, his seal.
This is a detailed discussion about the biblical concept of the 144,000 and its interpretation, particularly as presented by the Watchtower Society.Dan, the fifth son of Jacob, was born from Rachel's maid, Bilhah. According to Genesis 46:23, when Dan came to Egypt with his father and brothers, he had only one son. We can read this very briefly: "And the son of Dan was...” and then follows the name: “Hushim". In contrast, the youngest son, Benjamin, already had ten children by then. However, two hundred years later, after the tribe of Judah, Dan was the largest in terms of numbers (Numbers 1:27, 39). The number of Judah's warrior men was 74,600, while Dan's was 62,700. So, the tribe of Dan represented a very significant force. According to Numbers 10:25, it also played a prominent role in the camp order. He was one of the four main flag bearers and provided security for the army as a rear guard.
Without the Israelites, the tribes would not be mentioned separately. How could the tribe of Joseph never have existed? Israel, Joseph's both sons were adopted by him, and he gave them his name (Israel) (Genesis 48:1-22).
"Now, therefore, your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh will be mine, just as Reuben and Simeon are mine." (Genesis 48:5)
Israel adopted Joseph's two sons, so Joseph formed a double lineage. This duality emphasized that Israel (Jacob) accepts both as if they were his. Joseph received the right of the firstborn, primarily for Ephraim and secondarily for Manasseh. However, this duality helped a lot in tribal allocations. Since Levi (under the Old Covenant) did not receive a tribal inheritance, the twelve tribes remained with Ephraim and Manasseh counted as separate tribes. They received separate inheritances and their own territories. Thus, a 13th tribe emerged. This distribution can be seen in Numbers 10, where the western group consisted of Ephraim, Manasseh, and Benjamin, i.e., Rachel's sons.
This tribal distribution will change according to prophecies and reflects the modified system given in Revelations. Firstly, in Revelation 7, Levi is also listed among the tribes. Why? Because the Levitical priesthood was a temporary priesthood (Heb. 11:20), which became obsolete with the establishment of the Melchizedek order. Within the framework of the New Testament, Levi returned to the tribes and, along with the other tribes and grafted in Gentiles, they can all be part of this new Melchizedek priesthood through faith. Manasseh is separate because he received a separate inheritance. Joseph is therefore represented by Ephraim, who also has the primacy between the two brothers. What is strange for many is the absence of the tribe of Dan from the list. According to prophecies, Dan merges with Ephraim, so he is also represented under Joseph! (Which, by the way, has already happened in history to some extent in practice). Furthermore, the merged Dan Ephraim gives the last organized warning of the end times (Jeremiah 4:15) before the appearance of the two witnesses.
So, the tribes in Revelations are already listed according to the millennial (which can also be called the Melchizedek order) system. In Ezekiel 48, this has changed to a completely reversed order. Dan is one of the three tribes whose primary birthright promises only come into effect with the coming of the Messiah. (the other two are Issachar and Zebulun, who will call the peoples to Jerusalem) Dan will be the judge of the tribes. That's why Genesis 49 says: "I have waited for your salvation, O Lord!". In the new millennial tribal distribution according to Ezekiel, Dan will take his post at the eastern gate with Joseph and Benjamin, Rachel's sons, as a judge. (Then Dan will be at the forefront, and Judah will be the rear guard). The Messiah will come through this eastern gate, and this gate is the place of judgment. Also, in Genesis 10, Levi is not listed in the marching order, but he appears in the gate distribution! So, the order in Revelation reflects the Messianic system, that's why the list deviates from the temporary, better-known marching order. The tribes will be led back to the promised land in a much more massive exodus that dwarfs the Egyptian one.