Posts by aqwsed12345

slimboyfat

"Why doesn’t that count?"

Because we take into account not only that there is a difference in theological background between the OT and the NT, the most important thing is that it was written in a different language, so here it is not necessary to look at the general sense in which "elohim" is used in the OT, but to whom and in what sense "theos" was used in the NT originally written in Greek. And it is decisive: no inspired biblical text originally written in Greek calls anyone other than the true God "theos" in a positive sense.

"What Heb 1.4 says is that Jesus “became” better than the angels because he inherited a more excellent name than theirs."

Hebrews 1 speaks partly of the supremacy which he already possessed from the beginning (meaning his deity), since he is the only one begotten of the Father, and on the other hand of the glory which he received only after his resurrection and ascension. The two are not sharply separated in the text, for example in verse 10 it is about the creation of the world, it was obviously before those mentioned in the verses 3-4: "made purification of sins", etc. So this part is about his glorification as a man, i.e. that after his resurrection and ascension he received the name "Lord" in terms of his human nature, this is what Philippians 2 is about.

"On the other hand it makes no sense to talk about God himself “becoming” better than angels."

However it makes perfect sense, if we confess not only the one-essence deity of the Son with the Father in the Nicene sense, but also his dual nature in the Chalcedonian sense, according to which he took on human nature at the time of the Incarnation and will no longer put it down. And what the Father did in relation to the Son, he did not "with himself", since we are not Sabellian modalists either. Here it is about how the Father glorified the man Christ.

"Which manuscript are you saying had a full stop in John 1.1c?"

The ancient manuscripts did not use full stops, commas, etc., and I did not claim that such an NT manuscript exists, but that this is how the Arians interpreted away John 1:1c.

The NT never calls God's angels 'THEOS', and in the case of Jesus, we are not just relying on the application of the word "THEOS" in the singular and without any diminutive appendages, but on such attributes (omniscience, beginninglessness in time, prayer hearing, worship, etc.) which cannot apply to created angels.

On the one hand, the apostle sees the form of God in terms of equality with God, and on the other hand, we know that angels are in a lower form of existence than God. Christ has a higher dignity than the angels, according to the beginning of chapter 1 of the letter to the Hebrews. Thus, his divine form of existence cannot be categorized in the language that occasionally calls angels (or human judges) gods.

The NT manuscripts did not differentiate between "THEOS" with a lowercase, and "THEOS" with upper case, they distinguished whether Nomina Sacra were used or not. For example P46 gives a very interesting example in the text of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, in which references to “God” and “Lord” (in reference to Jesus) are written as Nomina Sacra, but the so-called (thus false) “gods” and “lords” are written out in their entirety:

“With regard then to eating food sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol in this world is nothing, and that there is no God [ΘΣ] but one. If after all there are so-called gods [ΘΕOI], whether in heaven or on earth, as there are many gods [ΘΕOI] and many lords [KYPIOI], yet for us there is one God [ΘΣ], the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ [KΣ, IHΣ XPΣ], through whom are all things and through whom we live."

"THEOS" when applied to Jesus is always 'nomen sacrum' in the ancient MSS, so it should be translated with a capital letter.

Fun fact: The Arians of the 4th century interpreted John 1:1c by putting a full stop after «God was», and "the Word" was placed as the beginning of sence in the next verse.

According to the WTS, such great figures of the past as King David or John the Baptist did not make it to heaven. And if they couldn't make it, how could we, simple believers, ever hope to get there, right? However, it's worth continuing to observe how the WTS argues: The WTS poses a misleading question. No Christian denomination's theology claims that "every good person goes to heaven". This theory might be popular among non-Christians, but only someone who does not know the Bible could make such a claim. Again, examining the broader context helps us with the correct interpretation.

Peter wants to prove that Jesus' resurrection was prophesied, and the Old Testament prophecy could not be fulfilled in David, because he did not rise like Jesus. Only Jesus' body was not found in the tomb. This contrast wants to emphasize Jesus' resurrection, but it does not reveal anything about David's state in eternity.

Acts chapter 2 uses David's prophecy about the physical resurrection. Peter makes it clear that David's prophecy could not refer to David, because David died, and his body experienced decay, his grave is still visible as proof of this. The contrast is between David's decomposed corpse in the grave and the living, immortally resurrected Christ. David's body saw corruption, Christ's body did not, but rose immortally and incorruptible. Christ is therefore clearly superior to David, and therefore He is Lord of David.

The Watchtower quotes Acts 2:34 about David, who did not ascend to heaven and claims that he will be resurrected for earthly eternal life - instead of heavenly life. However, just because David did not immediately go to heaven at the time of his death, this does not mean that he was excluded from the Old Testament saints who went to heaven at Christ's resurrection.

Moreover, far from the Watchtower using this verse to prove whether David has or does not have heavenly hope, the context does not mention David's resurrection at all, but rather Christ's and how He fulfilled the promises given to David. Thus, we see that when Jehovah's Witnesses use this verse as evidence for their view on David's resurrection, it is completely unfounded.

The translation of this verse is intended to support the idea that the deceased go into a "death sleep" after their death, and even the best do not go up to "heaven". Concerning the doctrine itself, we only note two things: (1) No biblical Christian denomination teaches that "every good person" goes to heaven. The condition for salvation ("being saved") is faith in Jesus (Jn 1:12-13), not living a good life. (2) The souls of the deceased do not go to the "heavan" after their death, as we are not talking about astronauts or airplane pilots, but to heaven. There is a difference between the two, as under the heavan we usually understand the atmosphere or outer space, under heaven we understand the place of God, his presence, the place where he is, that is, the invisible sphere of his kingdom.

However, it is more important now to examine the correct translation of the verse. In the Greek text of Westcott and Hort, it appears: "οὐ γὰρ Δαυεὶδ ἀνέβη εἰς τοὺς οὐρανούς" (see The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, WTB&TS, 1985. p. 527.). The correct translation of the text is: "For David did not ascend to the heavens...". Regarding the misinterpretation, consider the following:

Did you notice that the Society does not quote Acts 2:34 correctly? Its exact text is this: 'For David did not ascend to the heavens', but Christ, about whom David wrote in Psalm 110:1. Again, just observe the text itself! What do you think, was Peter really talking about David and his eternal fate, or was he preaching about Jesus? I believe Peter used David's lines to validate Jesus' resurrection. He is proving that David was not talking about himself in the psalm (since he died, his grave is well known, 2:29), but prophesied about Jesus (cf. Mt 22:43). Shouldn't David's fate be left in the hands of his Risen Lord?

We see another example of how the Watchtower Society rewrites, falsifies the text of the Bible in order to support its own teachings, and prints and distributes this in hundreds of millions of copies among the people seeking God. Is this an honest practice on the part of the translators and the publisher? Shouldn't we rather let the Scriptures form people's lives with their unaltered text? Can it really be said of Jehovah's Witnesses in the light of Bible forgery that they are the true religion because the "members revere the Bible as God's Word"?

Our understanding is aided by examining the broader context. Peter wants to prove that Jesus' resurrection was prophesied, and the Old Testament prophecy could not be fulfilled in David, as he did not rise in a manner similar to Jesus. Only Jesus' body was not found in the tomb. This juxtaposition wants to emphasize Jesus' resurrection, but it does not reveal anything about David's condition in eternity.

The real question that Jehovah's Witnesses need to answer is where David will be in the resurrection? The Watchtower teaches that Old Testament prophets will be resurrected on earth, as they are not members of the 144,000 chosen Jehovah's Witnesses who go to heaven. In contrast, the Bible teaches that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be in heaven. Jesus said, "But I say to you, many will come from east and west, and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."

So what is the correct answer, did David go to heaven or not? In the end, yes. Two aspects need to be considered: 1. When David put the quoted text on paper, he was still on earth. 2. Today, David's soul is in heaven. However, his body has not yet risen, and it is not in heaven, as Acts 2:29 suggests.

https://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/do-the-old-testament-saints-receive-a-heavenly-reward/

The Mortality of the Soul in the Bible?

The Holy Scriptures teach the resurrection and glorification of humans, proclaiming the transformation of their souls, their entire existence, and ultimately the whole world. While the Apostolic Creed spoke of the resurrection of the body (Lat. caro), the Nicene Creed did not delve into the "technical" details, it only anchored the hope of resurrection (people resurrect, not just some parts of them). Because the Bible's view of humanity and salvation are intertwined, any concept of the fate of the soul that is foreign to the Scriptures is always based on a perception of humanity and salvation that is also foreign to the Scriptures.

The following will discuss the idea of the mortality of the soul or the concept of "soul sleep". According to this, the soul dies along with the physical body and either perishes or remains unconscious ("soul sleep") until the resurrection. This concept is based on the Old Testament's view of humanity and has repeatedly emerged within the Western Church. Today, mainly Adventist-background and rationalist groups (like Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphian Community) hold this belief. They claim that their conception of the soul and its fate was originally part of Jewish-Christian faith. Therefore, in the following, we will analyze biblical passages often cited by them.

"For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other." (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

Claim: The human "soul" is the same as the animal's: mortal.

Rebuttal: According to Ecclesiastes, life without God is in vain. The author does not make a declaration but ponders (thinks, observes, raises questions, and leaves it open, verses 18 and 21). He does not talk about the state of man after death but about the similarity in the earthly fate of man and beast; they both eventually die (verse 19). Their bodies will become dust (verse 20), but where the "soul" of man and beast goes after death is unknown to him (verse 21). The revelation took place in a progressive manner on many topics: for example, Abraham or Solomon could have known almost nothing about the soul and its fate, Jesus said a lot, and even more was given to the apostles. Therefore, in this matter, we cannot refer to Old Testament texts without considering the later New Testament revelations. The translation "the same spirit is in each" [Heb. ruah echad laqol] can be misleading to today's reader, as the term "soul" may be understood differently than the biblical Hebrew term rúah. However, others translations are more accurate: "the same breath of life is in each." Returning to the arguments of Ecclesiastes 3, the finiteness of biological life may not lead animals but can lead humans to fear God and live their earthly lives differently through realization.

"The soul that sins shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4)

Claim: If a sinful soul can die, then the soul is mortal.

Rebuttal: Firstly, God, through the prophet, is contending against an Israeli proverb: "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge," meaning the children are punished for their fathers' sins. Ezekiel's message is clear: everyone is accountable for their own actions before God. Secondly, the literal translation ("which soul...") is misleading, as it merely means "whoever..." It's not about one "part" of a person, the soul (which proponents of soul mortality don't even consider a separate part), but about the whole person and their personal responsibility.

In other texts, the literal translations of the Bible can be misunderstood. Acts 3:23 "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from the people" - meaning everyone. Joshua 11:11 "And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them" - meaning everyone.

"Fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mt 10:28)

Claim: If the soul can also be "destroyed" along with the body, then the soul is mortal.

Rebuttal: Jesus is speaking to his disciples before sending them out to preach, preparing them for expected resistance (verses 23-27). He warns them not to fear men, who can only kill the body but not the soul (so they do have a soul); rather, they should fear God who can destroy both body and soul.

However, Jesus mentions hell as the place of destruction. This refers to the Valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, where there was a rubbish burn in Jesus' time. In the religious literature of the centuries between the Old and New Testaments, the image of this smoky valley merged with the underworld and final judgment. Jesus once uses this conception of the underworld in a parable (Lk 16:23, Greek: Hades). In most other New Testament texts, however, hell primarily refers to the lake of fire after the final judgment, where the underworld and death are cast (Mk 9:43, James 3:6, Jude 7, Rev 19:20, 20:14). The key point is that hell will be the place of the sinners' destruction at the final judgment, so in Mt 10, Jesus is not primarily talking about the state of man after physical death or the underworld.

"The dead know nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Claim: The dead are in an unconscious state, waiting for the resurrection.

Rebuttal: The overall message of the book (Ecclesiastes) is that life, when viewed without God, seems vain. The beginning of Chapter 9 argues that anything can happen to anyone, whether good or bad, religious or irreligious (verses 1-2). It's not just that life can be unfair; humans, with their wickedness, exacerbate the troubles, and in the end, everyone dies (verse 3). However, as long as one is alive, there is hope (verse 4). The living at least know what will happen to them: they will surely die (and stand before God), but until then, they can change their fate (which gives hope). The dead, however, know nothing and are forgotten over time (verse 5). The earthly matters they fought for fade, and whether they once loved or hated no longer matters; they no longer partake in worldly affairs (verse 6). It's not that they lack consciousness or cease to exist but that they have fallen out of this world. Therefore, the lesson, indeed God's desire, is to enjoy the fleeting life – with work, honor, love, and good spirits – while it lasts (verses 7-9). For what counts beyond is what happened on Earth.

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth..." (Daniel 12:2)

Claim: The dead are "asleep", i.e., they either don't exist or their souls aren't conscious, so they wait for the resurrection.

Rebuttal: Firstly, the train of thought surrounding the quoted sentence deals only with Jews, not the entire humanity. Daniel's people will indeed go through great tribulation, but the time will come, and through Archangel Michael, those whose names are written down will be saved. Then, from among those who "sleep in the dust of the earth," many will awake (Heb. quts). Not everyone, just "many", and they are distinguished only by one criterion: were they "wise" (Heb. sakal)? A wise person is one who understands the sealed text about the latter days (12:10) and chooses God's side during the time of trial.

Secondly, the imagery of "sleep" is used throughout the Bible as a euphemistic expression for death. The biblical phrase simply likens the process of dying to another externally similar experience: falling asleep. It doesn't intend to make any claims about the nature of death or the whereabouts and condition of the deceased. If we were to consistently interpret this metaphor literally, as if it speaks about the "state" of death, it would actually affirm the existence of the soul or consciousness after death. This is because a sleeping person does not cease to exist; their consciousness still operates, always dreaming, even if they don't remember it.

"Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ..." (1 Corinthians 15:18)

Claim: Death is the "sleep" of the soul, an unconscious state.

Rebuttal: The term "fall asleep" (Greek: koimaomai) in the New Testament is a euphemism for "to die", and its exact English equivalent is "passed away" (Mt 9:24, 27:52, Jn 11:11, Acts 7:60, 13:36, 1Cor 15:6,18,20,51, 1Thess 4:13, 5:10).

It should be noted that the Bible does not teach that the human soul is intrinsically immortal. However, it does teach that humans aren't just a temporary combination of body and life force: their "soul" survives physical death. This is supported by biblical examples: the spirits of those who died in Noah's time (1Pt 3:19-20) and the souls of the martyred Christians (Rev 6:9-11) or Elijah and Moses talking to Jesus (Lk 9:28-31). Paul did not consider himself synonymous with his body; that's why he wished to depart from the body and be with the Lord (2Cor 5:8). He even considered it possible that he had an out-of-body experience (2Cor 12:2-3). He only considered death as gain because being with Christ was far better than earthly service (Phil 1:23). As the Jewish saints are also alive, for God is the God of the living (Mk 12:24-27); Jesus also promised that whoever believes in Him, "though he dies, will live" (Jn 11:25).