aqwsed12345

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  The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

  the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

  there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

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  aqwsed12345

  @TTWSYF

  I do, but the issue is simply a question of historical continuity.
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  Mormon's go door to door

  by truthseeker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2006/12/20/news/features/908features.txtmormon missionaries proselytize despite hurdlesby mary garrigan, journal staff writerat 5 p.m., the thermometer reads 103 degrees in the shade, and elder jeff pyper, a burly young mormon missionary with the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints, has been knocking on doors in a rapid city neighborhood all afternoon.. .

  angie friedt and her daughter, landry, 6, answer a knock at the door of their rapid valley home from three missionaries of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints.

  (steve mcenroe/journal staff).

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  aqwsed12345

  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints emerged in early 19th-century America. It fulfilled a dual need. On the one hand, it catered to the need for an "American myth," as this was the era of nation-building and the search for national roots. On the other hand, it addressed the desire for the "restoration" of the primitive church, in contrast to denominationalism, as this was also the period of the so-called Restoration Movement. Today’s Mormon religion is thus a combination of biblical elements, alleged ancient and modern American revelations, a rationalist theology, a new priestly hierarchy, Masonic rites, and Puritan morality.

  The church was founded in 1830 by Joseph Smith Jr. (1805-1844). As a teenager, he was searching for the true church when the Father and the Son appeared to him, declaring that the churches "were all wrong and abominable in His sight" (1820). Later, an angel named Moroni also appeared to him, through whom he obtained the records of a once-flourishing Christian culture in America (1823). Smith dug up the gold plates, translated them, published them under the title The Book of Mormon, and founded his church (1830). Although he showed the plates to 11 witnesses, the angel took them to the afterlife. Smith and his followers were initially persecuted, and he himself was eventually lynched in a prison. Under the leadership of the second church president, Brigham Young, they succeeded in establishing a state in what is now Utah. Their center has since been Salt Lake City, with a global spread of 13 million members. Several similar churches have split from the Utah church, the largest of which (about 250,000 members) is the Reorganized Church (Missouri), which also conducts missionary work and considers itself Smith's true heir.

  Distinctive Doctrines and Their Criticism

  a) The American Prophet

  LDS Claim: Joseph Smith Jr. was the first President, Seer, and Revelator of the restored Church of the Last Days, without whom there would be no (complete) salvation. Despite his church-founding and city-organizing talents, he was poorly educated. This also proves that the great works he produced could not be his own writings but were inspired by God. According to Smith, Acts 3:21 speaks of him and the restoration of the church. He claimed about himself that "I am prouder of this than any other man. Since the days of Adam, I am the only man who has been able to keep a whole church together. The majority of the entire thing is on my side. Neither Paul, nor John, nor Peter, nor Jesus did this. I boast that no man ever did a greater work than I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him, but the Latter-day Saints never have run away from me." As a prophet, he predicted his persecution and died as a martyr.

  Criticism: Smith was undoubtedly one of the most charismatic figures of his time, but contemporary sources do not confirm the later idealized image. He grew up as a farm boy involved in treasure hunting and occultism. He was subject to civil proceedings for fraud, and the Methodist church – which he joined after God explicitly forbade him in the First Vision – expelled him. His works faithfully reflect his historical and biblical ignorance. After founding the church, at the height of his career, he was mayor of Nauvoo, a bank director, militia commander, and a candidate for U.S. president. He had the printing press of an opposition newspaper destroyed. When his bank went bankrupt, he fled without compensating his creditors. He falsely prophesied multiple times. He was not a martyr; he killed two of his attackers with a smuggled pistol before he was shot. Smith introduced polygamy, citing divine revelation. In addition to his legal wife, he had 47 other living wives, married only in church ceremonies, including teenagers and already married women, and 149 deceased women were also sealed to him in temple ceremonies.

  b) Continuous Revelation

  LDS Claim: The Bible is considered scripture "as far as it is translated correctly," but according to Smith, the text of the Bible is corrupted. The Inspired Version revealed to Smith corrects the errors and restores the removed parts (its full text is only published by the Missouri church). Jesus also gave revelations in America: the ancient-origin Book of Mormon, and the modern-day Doctrine and Covenants, as well as the Pearl of Great Price. In addition, the teachings of the current Prophet and the 12 apostles are also considered revelations. God's judgment is upon those who reject continuous revelation and the Mormon scriptures. God would not allow the leaders of His church to teach false doctrine.

  Criticism: The Book of Mormon contains many biblical passages, which is why it has a "biblical" text and exerts a positive influence on its readers. However, Mormons interpret almost every biblical term differently from Christians. The teachings in the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible on important issues and even later Mormon revelations. The Inspired Version is completely arbitrary, a true Bible falsification; for example, Smith added a long prophecy about Joseph (that is, himself) to the end of Genesis 50, supposedly spoken by the ancient Joseph. The text of the Bible has indeed been preserved and is sufficient for salvation and holy living (Acts 11:14, Rom 1:16, 15:4, 1 Cor 1:18, 21, 2:2-5, 2 Cor 4:3, 2 Tim 3:14-17, Heb 1:1-2, etc.).

  c) The Book of Mormon

  LDS Claim: The Book of Mormon is an ancient American revelation from God, equivalent to the Bible (Palestinian scriptures). It was written on gold plates in "reformed Egyptian" script. Its content centers on the history of Jews (Nephites, Lamanites) who sailed across the Indian and Pacific Oceans to the American continent, the promised land, from 621 BC to 421 AD. The descendants of a portion of these American Jewish tribes (the Lamanites, who were cursed and had dark skin due to their sins) are the Native Americans and the peoples of Oceania. The Book of Mormon was translated from the gold plates by Smith "by the gift and power of God." Its authenticity is confirmed by the fact that those who sincerely ask God whether the Book of Mormon is true will receive a revelation from God (e.g., a warm feeling in their hearts). The Book of Mormon is "the most perfect book in the world, the cornerstone of our religion, and whoever lives by its teachings will come closer to God than by any other book" (JS). The stories described in the Book of Mormon can be placed in the regions of ancient Aztec, Inca, and Mayan cultures. The Bible also prophesied the appearance of the Book of Mormon (Ezekiel 37:16-20). The Book of Mormon contains so many biblical passages because the Jews who sailed to America brought with them the Old Testament that had been written until 621 BC, and the New Testament elements were spoken by Jesus Himself in America.

  Criticism: The style and much of the text of the Book of Mormon derive from the English translation of the King James Bible (1611). Unlike the Bible, the existence of the American culture described in the Book of Mormon (peoples, cities, countries, battles, writings, etc.) has not been confirmed by archaeology. Contrary to the data in the Book of Mormon, pre-Columbian America did not have wheat, barley, horses, donkeys, sheep, cattle, pigs, elephants, iron and steel, coins, synagogues, or leprosy. Native Americans are not Semitic (like Jews and Arabs) but belong to the Mongoloid race and originate from Northeast Asia. The history and characteristics of Central and South American cultures are not compatible in any way with the cultures described in the Book of Mormon (e.g., the Mayan culture was later and Stone Age in nature). The real author of the Book of Mormon projected the conditions of 19th-century North America back into the past. Ezekiel 37:16-20: The joining of the two inscribed sticks is a prophetic illustration of the post-captivity reunification of Israel and Judah, where God will again gather His people from everywhere (verses 20-22), not a unity of Palestinian and American revelations. The Book of Mormon also quotes from Old Testament Jewish prophets who lived after 621 BC (from Jeremiah to Malachi), whose writings addressed the situation of the Jewish people in Palestine and who could not have had contact with the supposed American Jews. Smith even adopted the translation errors from the King James Bible.

  d) The Book of Abraham

  LDS Claim: The Book of Abraham, which is part of the Pearl of Great Price and is theologically important, was translated by Smith from an Egyptian papyrus purchased from an antiquities dealer named Chandler, using his God-given ability. The facsimiles of three segments of the papyri are included in the text of the Book of Abraham, along with Smith's detailed, numbered explanations.

  Criticism: According to modern Egyptology, the papyri considered the original source of the Book of Abraham actually contain the text of a pagan funerary document from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. The Egyptian script was deciphered by Champollion in 1822, and its grammar and dictionary were published in 1836 and 1841, but even long after Smith, no one in the United States could read Egyptian. The "Egyptian Grammar" written by Smith is also a product of fantasy. The authenticity of his "revelations" is not determined by feelings or mutual affirmations (cf. Jeremiah 17:9) but by facts. Nothing confirms the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham; on the contrary, everything we know refutes them.

  e) The Restored Church

  LDS Claim: The church founded by Jesus in Jerusalem fell into error, disbanded, and ceased to be the true church in the early centuries due to the foretold Great Apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3). After His resurrection, Jesus appeared in America and founded His church there, but by the early 5th century, the Nephite church in America was also destroyed. The final restoration of the church on earth (Acts 3:20-21, Revelation 14:6) occurred in 1830 through Joseph Smith, thus making the Mormon church "the kingdom of the Lord, once again, reestablished on the earth, which prepares for the second coming of the Messiah," and which "is the only true, living church upon the face of the whole earth." According to God's promise (Daniel 2:44), the church will never be overthrown again. Moreover, God revealed to Smith that the New Jerusalem would be built in the United States, in the state of Missouri. Since the Mormon church has taken the place of unfaithful Israel, every new member is assigned to one of the Jewish tribes (even those of non-Jewish origin). Although the Mormon community has been unjustly persecuted from the beginning, Mormons do not criticize other churches.

  Criticism: According to Joseph Smith's account, the Father and the Son who appeared to him declared that the contemporary Baptist, Methodist, Reformed, Lutheran, etc., churches "were all wrong" and that "all their creeds were an abomination." The denominations of that time are the same as those today, so the very existence, legitimacy, and mission of the Mormon church is a judgment against all Christian churches. However, the universal Christian church, despite all its problems, could not have ceased to exist for almost a millennium and a half, because according to Christ, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18, Jude 24-25 cf. Ephesians 5:25-32). So who lied: Jesus or Smith? The New Testament also writes about the need for continuous faith defense (Jude 3), not about disintegration after the 1st century. The original text of 2 Thessalonians 2:3: does not say "great apostasy" but "rebellion" (without details), and at this time, the Antichrist will also appear, who will sit in God's temple, deify himself, etc. None of this has happened yet. Daniel 2 speaks of an eternal kingdom after the destruction of great political powers, but these political powers still exist. Therefore, the Mormon Church is not a "restoration" of the early church, because it overstepped the biblical boundaries from the beginning, which could have ensured that it remained within Christianity.

  f) The Godhead

  LDS Claim: According to the fundamental doctrine, the Godhead consists of three persons: the Father (Elohim), the Son (Jehovah), and the Holy Ghost. However, the deeper teachings, which are revealed later, suggest that there are actually many gods who possess perfect souls and perfect bodies, have genders, and reproduce. God Himself was once a man but was exalted to become God, meaning He was not always God. Humans are essentially gods in an embryonic state. After the final judgment, if they meet all the conditions, they too can become gods and goddesses, with their own worlds. "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be..." (JS) The Bible also teaches the existence of many gods (1 Corinthians 8:5) and the exaltation of humans to godhood (Psalms 82:1,6, John 10:34-36).

  Criticism: In the Bible, Jehovah and Elohim are the same God, under the name Yahweh Elohim (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 40:3 cf. John 1:23). The Hebrew word "elohim" means "gods" only when the verb following it is in the plural (with a few exceptions for pagan gods), but when the verb is singular, it means "the Godhead" (as Hebrew uses the plural form of a noun to form an abstract noun). God is a spiritual being (Psalms 139, John 4:24, Acts 17:28-29), and the "body parts" attributed to Him in the Bible are only metaphors. There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10, 45:5, 20-21, 44:6, 1 Timothy 2:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6, James 2:19, etc.). God has always been God (Isaiah 40:28, John 5:26, Hebrews 13:8, 9:14, 1 Timothy 1:17, 6:16) and does not change (Malachi 3:6, James 1:17). God is not a man (Hosea 11:9, Numbers 23:19), and the deification of man is a satanic doctrine (Genesis 3:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). Psalms 82:1,6: God is mocking the judges who were "gods" (mighty ones) but, because of their unfaithfulness, will die like mere mortals. John 10:34-36: Jesus refers back to Psalms 82: If God mockingly called the judges "gods," how much more true is it for Him, if He calls Himself the Son of God! 1 Corinthians 8:5: There are so-called (believed to be, considered to be) gods in pagan religions; cf. 8:6 "...yet for us there is only one God."

  g) The Children of Heavenly Father and Mother

  LDS Claim: In addition to Heavenly Father, there is also a Heavenly Mother, whose name is unknown, and prayers should not be directed to her. Together, they have given birth to many billions of spirit children, who existed even before earthly, mortal life (pre-existence, Jeremiah 1:5, John 1:2, 14, 8:58, 17:5). In order for these spirit children to progress and prove their obedience, they must experience the joys and sorrows of earthly life. Satan (Lucifer) and a portion of the spirits rebelled against this plan of earthly life and redemption, as Satan wanted everyone to be saved, but without free will. Jesus, on the other hand, desired to follow the Father’s will, allowing people to make their own choices. Therefore, the Father entrusted Him with the redemption. Jesus, under the Father's direction, created this world with the help of the archangel Michael and the chosen spirits from the pre-existing chaotic matter. The fall of Adam (the archangel Michael) and Eve was a necessary evil, part of the divine plan: only this way could they become mortal humans capable of biological reproduction, only this way could the spirit children be born on earth, and only this way could they begin their path of eternal progression and exaltation.

  Criticism: In the Bible, God's "fatherhood" is meant to make His relationship with us (paternal love) understandable; biological gender is only attributed to pagan gods. "Jehovah" (Jesus) and Satan (a fallen angel) are not brothers, nor are they our brothers! The Bible makes a clear distinction between the Creator and His creations; they are not of the same kind. Humans do not come from pre-existence but from the earth (Genesis 2:7, John 3:13, 33, 8:23, 1 Corinthians 15:47). Jeremiah 1:5 does not speak of everyone's pre-existence but specifically of Jeremiah's calling. John 1:2, etc., speaks only of Jesus, not of everyone (cf. Colossians 1:15-19). God created the world out of nothing (Romans 4:17), entirely by Himself (Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:12, etc.) with His mere word (Genesis 1:3, John 1:1-3). The fall brought not a blessing but a curse (Romans 6:23, 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22). Since then, no one is inherently a child of God, but one can become so, receiving the authority, by coming to faith in Christ (John 1:12-13, 1 John 5:1, Romans 8:15, Galatians 3:26).

  h) Perfection and Eternal Progression

  LDS Claim: God is perfect and commanded His children to be perfect as well (Matthew 5:48), to become completely holy (1 Peter 1:15-16), and to ultimately be exalted to godhood (2 Peter 1:4). God would not have commanded perfection if humans were not capable of achieving it. A believer must become worthy of everything, fulfilling the conditions of the bilateral covenant with God: Christ has done His part, so the believer must do their part as well. The process of conversion and the condition of sanctification include faith, repentance, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, honesty, faithfulness, regular testimony, paying tithing, keeping the word of wisdom, and performing temple ordinances. A person is not inherently sinful but becomes so only when and if they commit sin. Repentance has seven steps: acknowledgment, remorse, confession, restitution, forgiveness of others, keeping the commandments, and not committing the same sin again. Grace comes into effect only after the believer has done everything within their power to keep the commandments. By the grace thus received, one becomes eligible for the blessings of mortal and eternal life.

  Criticism: 2 Peter 1:4: According to the text and its context (verses 3 and 5), Christ's divine power has given the believer everything needed for a godly life (here on earth), by making Himself known through His own glory and moral excellence [Greek "aretē"], and indeed, He called them to Himself through these, and on this basis, He promised them that through these, they would become partakers of the divine nature and escape the corruption caused by evil desires. It does not mean that one "becomes a god," but rather that one partakes in something that is a natural attribute, a gift of God alone (Greek "physis"), namely moral excellence. Matthew 5:48 does not say, "slowly become perfect," but be perfect here and now, because God is. 1 Peter 1:16 does not say, "become as holy as I am," but be holy here and now, because God is. Only God is holy (Revelation 15:4), and no one is as holy as God (2 Samuel 2:2, 6:20), but Christ's holiness and righteousness are attributed to the believer (Romans 3:24-26, 4:3-5, 1 Corinthians 1:30), making every sanctified (set apart for God) person once and for all perfect (Hebrews 10:14). Sanctification as a process only refers to living out this perfection more fully. Humans are not sinful only when they sin, but they sin because they are inherently inclined to sin (Luke 5:8, Colossians 2:13, Ephesians 2:1-3, Romans 3:23, 5:10-21, 8:3). Everyone sins frequently (James 2:10, 3:2), and everyone repeatedly commits the same sins, yet still receives forgiveness (Luke 17:3-4). A believer's life is, until the end, one of unmerited, unearned grace; this is not cheap, not expensive, but priceless, and therefore a free gift (Ephesians 2:1-10, Titus 3:5). A holy life and service are not tools for achieving goals but a sign of grateful reciprocal love (1 Peter 1:5-9, Ephesians 5:1) for the blessings already received as a gift (Ephesians 1:3-14). In the Bible, the sinful believer receives grace, i.e., release from judgment, and does not become favored based on merit, as in the Mormon religion.

  i) The Restored Priesthood

  LDS Claim: God has restored the authority of the church's priesthood in the last days, meaning the authority to act in God's stead and in His name (Matthew 16:19). There are two types of priesthood with different responsibilities and rights. The Aaronic Priesthood (for those over 12 years old) mainly performs physical services: baptisms and administering the sacrament. The Melchizedek Priesthood (for "elders" over 18 years old) conducts salvific ordinances: conferring the Holy Ghost, teaching, and leading the church. The Aaronic Priesthood was conferred on Jesus by John the Baptist, and the Melchizedek Priesthood was conferred on Jesus' apostles by Him. John the Baptist, who appeared to Smith and his close associates, conferred the Aaronic Priesthood upon them, and the apostles Peter, James, and John, who also appeared, conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood. The ordination into the priesthood continues today through the laying on of hands (this is the so-called priesthood line).

  Criticism: Only Levites, descendants of Levi by blood, could belong to the Aaronic Priesthood, making it non-transferable (Exodus 29:9, Numbers 3:10, 2 Chronicles 31:19). The figures in the Book of Mormon were not Levites, so they could not be priests, nor could they have a temple. Jesus was born into the tribe of Judah, so He could not have been a Levite (Hebrews 7:13-14). However, because of Jesus' one and only sacrifice, the Aaronic Priesthood lost its function, and the priesthood changed (Hebrews 7:12, 27). The privilege of priestly service, once exclusive to male members of one tribe, became universal (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:4-6), including women (Acts 2:16-18), since it became a spiritual sacrifice (1 Peter 2:5, Hebrews 13:15, Romans 12:1, 15:16, Philippians 4:18). The eternal priesthood after the "order" of Melchizedek is also exclusively, and non-transferably, Christ's (Hebrews 7:24) because only He is immortal (Hebrews 7:2-3,15-16,24).

  j) The Holy Temple

  LDS Claim: Educational work and community practice take place worldwide in meetinghouses (chapels). However, there are only about 150 temples worldwide. Certain ordinances necessary for salvation and specific covenants can only be performed in the temple, and it is also where one can learn about pre-earthly and post-mortal life. The most important ordinances are endowment, eternal marriage, sealing of children to their parents, and ordinances for the dead. After a public opening, only worthy church members with a temple recommend (entry permit) may enter the temple. The ordinances can only be performed by those authorized to do so, and the ordinances are sacred and practically secret, as members are sworn not to disclose them to outsiders (this would be a grave sin).

  Criticism: Mormon "temple work" has nothing to do with the rituals of biblical times, the early church, or today's Christian denominations. Israel could have only one temple, and its priesthood was limited to male members of one tribe. Everyone approached it with a sense of guilt, fully aware of their unworthiness, as the temple's function was the offering of sacrifices and worship (obtaining forgiveness of sins and thanksgiving). However, because of Christ's sacrifice, the temple lost its function, and in AD 70, it was destroyed. God must be worshiped in spirit (John 4:24). Not a building, but the Christian community and the individual have become God's temple (1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19, 2 Corinthians 6:16, Ephesians 2:19-22 cf. Revelation 21:22). Smith received a "revelation" about secret temple rituals shortly after becoming a member of a Masonic lodge in 1838, after which they considered him a traitor. He adopted many rituals but reinterpreted almost all of them. However, significant changes have been made to the theoretically sacred and unchangeable Mormon temple ceremonies over time: most recently in April 1990 in the text and rituals, and in January 2005 in the ritual clothing.

  k) Work for the Dead

  LDS Claim: The church exists and operates in the spirit world as well. The spirits of the dead are sent either to paradise or to a prison for spirits, which has several levels. Spirits are classified according to their deeds, but if they learn and live by the gospel rules, they can ascend to higher levels. And if a relative performs ordinances for them in a temple on earth (1 Corinthians 15:29), they can pass into paradise (1 Peter 3:18-20, 4:6). If they do not repent of their sins, they must suffer for them, similar to Christ's suffering, and after the resurrection, they may reach the lowest (telestial) level of glory. For this reason, every Mormon traces their ancestors so that they can provide their dead relatives with an opportunity for salvation through proxy ordinances. The church's International Genealogical Department assists them in family history research. In the temples, living and dead family members are linked together through various ordinances. According to Smith, "Our ancestors cannot be made perfect without us, nor we without them." Journal keeping also serves to more fully bind families together, as the journals of today’s Saints are like those of the prophets: descendants can later learn much from their testimonies.

  Criticism: According to the Bible, our fate is determined here on earth (Hebrews 9:27, Luke 16:19-31, Romans 2:14-16), and the soul's final destiny is either eternal life or eternal death, heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2, Revelation 20-21). Those who could not know the law of Moses or the gospel of Christ are excused by God for their ignorance (Acts 14:16, 17:30) and are judged based on their conscience (Romans 2:14-16). Those who could make a decision regarding the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-11) are judged based on their faith or unbelief (John 3:18,36). If they do not believe, the words of Moses and Christ condemn them (Deuteronomy 18:19, John 5:45-47, 12:48). The interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:29 is difficult, but it is certain that there is no trace of any need or possibility for ordinances to be performed on behalf of the dead elsewhere in the Bible or in Christian church history before the 19th century, so it cannot be a restoration, but only a new doctrine. 1 Peter 3:18-20, 4:6: Christ preached not to all the dead but only to the spirits of the people who lived in Noah's time, before the law of Moses and the gospel of Christ. Moreover, it speaks only of Christ, not that the souls of deceased believers would preach to other souls. Mormons are not "co-redeemers"; their ordinances for the dead are simply futile.

  l) Resurrection and Final Judgment

  LDS Claim: Resurrection is the final reunification of the soul and the physical body in a perfect and immortal form. Everyone will be resurrected, but there are two resurrections: the first for the righteous and the second for sinners who do not repent. After the resurrection comes the final judgment, where everyone will receive what they deserve. Judgment is given to the Son (John 5:22), but He will call upon others to assist: for example, the New Testament apostles will judge the 12 tribes of Israel, the American apostles will judge the Lamanites and Nephites, and the Presidency and the Twelve Apostles who served during their lives will judge the Mormons.

  Criticism: According to the Bible, resurrection is not the reunification of the soul (Greek pneuma/psyche) and the physical body (Greek sarx), but the complete transformation and glorification of the "body," meaning the form of existence (Greek soma) (Mark 12:24-25, Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Corinthians 15:35-56, 1 John 3:2). John 5:22: The Father has given all judgment to the Son (Acts 17:31, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1), who will judge everyone's life (Genesis 18:25, Job 21:22, Romans 2:6, Revelation 20:11-12). One believer cannot judge another, that is, no one can judge God's servant (Matthew 7:1-2, Romans 14:4,10,12-13).

  m) Degrees of Glory

  LDS Claim: The righteous will be placed in one of the three heavenly degrees of glory (2 Corinthians 12:2, 1 Corinthians 15:40-42). In the highest, celestial glory, everyone can live with their family in the constant presence of the Father and the Son, but even within this, there are three degrees: to reach exaltation, or godhood, four ordinances (including celestial marriage) and the observance of 18 laws are necessary. The second, terrestrial glory is for those honorable people who did not accept the gospel on earth due to others but accepted it in the spirit world, or who accepted it on earth but later fell away; they cannot be with their families, but Christ will visit them. The telestial glory is for those who did not accept the gospel on earth or in the spirit world and led sinful lives; they are the majority and will be visited only by the Holy Ghost. The fourth is outer darkness (Matthew 8:12), for those who knew the truth but allowed Satan to rule them; they will suffer in eternal darkness with Satan and his angels, forever stuck in their progression.

  Criticism: The last day, the final judgment in the Bible, is entirely different (cf. Revelation 20:5-6,11-15, 21:8), as is the fate of Satan and his demons (cf. Revelation 20:10). 2 Corinthians 12:2 does not refer to post-resurrection degrees of glory. Paul's experience happened in his lifetime, in the present, though he did not know exactly how (verses 2-3), so he described it according to the rabbinic ideas of his time. According to these, the first heaven is for the birds, the second for the angels, and the third heaven or paradise is the presence of God. 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 does not speak of heavenly degrees but of the earthly and heavenly bodies of people, that is, their forms of existence (Greek soma). Matthew 8:12: Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven, that is, God's earthly kingdom, the Millennium, not of an otherworldly place. In His illustration, believing Gentiles (verses 10-11) and truly believing Jews will rejoice together, but the self-righteous but actually unbelieving contemporary Jews (verse 12) will be cast out.

  n) Eternal Marriage

  LDS Claim: Mormons enter into so-called celestial marriage in the Temple, not only for earthly life but for eternity. Through this, they will be exalted in the highest degree of celestial glory and, as gods and goddesses, will create, populate, and rule new worlds. Procreative power is, in fact, a holy creative power. Polygamy (plural marriage) was introduced by Smith and Young, claiming revelation from God. Although Mormons have not practiced it since 1890 due to pressure from American public opinion, and even face excommunication for it, it will be reinstated in the coming Millennium (Christ's thousand-year Kingdom) so that all of God's spirit children can become human. Today, only so-called "fundamentalist Mormon" churches practice polygamy (about 30-40,000 members).

  Criticism: According to Jesus, there will be no marriage after the resurrection (Mark 12:24-25). The Bible makes a sharp distinction between divine creation and biological reproduction. God created with His word, from nothing, and created new things (e.g., humans). Humans, with their already created physicality, only reproduce. The biblical examples of polygamy—before the Mosaic law (Lamech, Abraham, Jacob) and during the time of some kings (David, Solomon, Rehoboam)—were not recorded as models to follow (cf. 1 Kings 11:1-4), and the institution of levirate marriage (Deuteronomy 25:5-10) was given only for exceptional situations. God's plan has always been for the marriage of one man and one woman, that they two should become one flesh (Genesis 2:24 cf. Ephesians 5:25).

  Positive Aspects

  The Christian background of the Mormon religion is evident in its recognition of the Bible as scripture, the use of biblical vocabulary, and the central role of Christ. The lifestyle of its members is exemplary in many respects, as Mormon ethics draw heavily from biblical principles. There is a strong emphasis on individual responsibility, the development of talents, and honesty. The "Word of Wisdom"—though in the Bible it simply means "wise words"—promotes a healthy, active lifestyle (prohibiting coffee, black tea, smoking, and drug use), resulting in the average Mormon living 10 years longer than the average American. The church's focus on family and love for children is reflected in the exemplary family lives of Mormons: marriage is considered eternal, and Monday's "family evening" is dedicated to shared learning, playing, praying, and singing together. The church offers genealogical research as a free service to non-members as well and has compiled the civil registration databases of more developed countries at its own expense. The social safety net provided to members (through relief societies) demonstrates exemplary solidarity: there are no unemployed Mormons, and the Perpetual Education Fund (PEF) fully finances the education of young church members. Members also engage in much charitable work outside the church, with many regularly contributing to those in need through the so-called fast offering (donating the cost of two meals). The dedication of young missionaries is unquestionable, with many saving from a young age to cover mission expenses. The church's choir, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, is also world-renowned.

  Negative Aspects

  The Mormon religion denies or misunderstands almost every important doctrine of biblical Christianity. At the same time, the Mormon Church—misleadingly—attempts to present itself as one of the Christian denominations, while internally it continues to regard itself as the only true church. This "interest-driven ecumenism" helps the church gain acceptance but is morally questionable. The biblical vocabulary used by Mormons also strengthens the impression of Christianity, although almost every word means something entirely different than in the Bible. Therefore, meaningful conversations with them require understanding "Mormon language."

  The perfectionism of the church is striking. Since they misunderstand the biblical command for perfection, water down the concept of sin, and do not understand the true, biblical meaning of grace, many members find themselves in conflict between the church's expectations (becoming perfect and worthy) and their own abilities (their sinful nature). Even the Mormon press now acknowledges that the Utah population, which is 70% Mormon (especially women), needs stress-relieving medication at a rate higher than the national average, and that more than half of the missionaries, who usually bear testimony almost like robots for two years, become inactive after returning home.

  Behind the appealing image of the Mormon family ideal, with many children, lies the teaching that spirit children waiting in the pre-mortal existence are eager to be born into earthly life through the sexual union of their earthly siblings as soon and in as great numbers as possible. The love of family and the appreciation of children are, of course, also present in the Christian church, but without this background teaching, which is bizarre from a biblical perspective.

  The Mormon religion has an esoteric-gnostic structure. Regarding their proselytizing method, according to the iceberg principle, the prospective convert is not given, and indeed cannot be given, a full picture of the Mormon belief system. What is visible on the surface appears biblical and Christian, and partly it is. However, beneath the surface, strange, unbiblical doctrines are hidden. Investigators are given only the Book of Mormon; the other scriptures (Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price) can be read only after baptism, once they have become members of the church. The deeper teachings are received in the Temple, and those involved in temple work can also learn the content of the so-called temple records. This multi-layered system only becomes apparent over the years.

  Ordinary members know only the heroic side of the church's history (the pioneer journey, persecutions, the building of Salt Lake City, etc.). The average Mormon is either unaware of or does not recognize the significance of the internal contradictions in Smith's story, the completely different versions of his visions, his false prophecies, the significant textual changes made to the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, and the scientific refutations of the claims in the Book of Mormon and the content of the Book of Abraham papyri. The church leadership keeps these contradictions silent and suppresses internal criticism: a number of Mormon scholars (anthropologists, Egyptologists, geneticists, etc.) who have voiced professional criticism have already been excommunicated. As incredible as it may seem, this is a religion that—beyond the biblical and Masonic elements—is largely a product of 19th-century American religious imagination.
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  60

  The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

  the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

  there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

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  aqwsed12345

  The Church NEVER apostatized

  Faith of Our Fathers (Part 1): Were the Early Christians Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  Faith of Our Fathers (Part 2): Were the Early Christians Jehovah’s Witnesses?
• 
  60

  The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

  the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

  there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

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  2. 
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• 

  aqwsed12345

  1. The Continuity and Visibility of the Church

  The true Church must be continuous from the apostolic age. There is no room in Christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true Christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement. The continuity of the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy, as communities traceable back to the apostles, cannot be emphasized enough.

  Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Christ’s true congregation "disappeared from the pages of history" for a time while "false Christians" dominated religious life. In contrast, Jesus referred to the Church in Matthew 5:14 as follows: “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.” This image suggests a visible, continuously present community that bears witness to Jesus’ teachings in the world.

  If the Church had truly disappeared, as the JW claim, this would contradict Jesus’ promise that the Church would always be visible and bear witness to God’s sovereignty. The historical continuity and constant presence of the Catholic Church in the world are much more in line with this promise.

  At the same time, somewhat paradoxically, Jehovah's Witnesses assert that their beliefs have always been present throughout history, from Abel to the present day, without interruption. However, when this claim is examined from a historical perspective, significant problems arise. The Watchtower Society teaches that there have always been people who adhered to Watchtower teachings since Jesus, particularly in regards to the main doctrines. Yet, when they attempted to find specific historical groups that held similar beliefs, they could not find a single group that accepted all the important teachings.

  In the book “Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom,” John Wycliffe and William Tyndale are cited, but they believed in the Trinity and therefore could not be considered Jehovah's Witnesses. Furthermore, no group can be identified before the 1300s because at that time, except for a few exotic (and severely heretical by both Protestant and JW standards) sects, everyone’s belief system was necessarily Catholic. The historical groups mentioned by the Watchtower Society, such as the Waldenses, Cathars, Albigenses, Paulicians, and Lollards, all showed significant deviations from Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings and cannot be identified as equivalent to today's Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Based on historical data, it cannot be claimed that Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs have persisted uninterrupted over the centuries. While the Watchtower Society often tries to find similarities with earlier religious groups, these groups exhibited significant differences from the teachings of today’s Jehovah's Witnesses. Accordingly, proving historical continuity is not possible, and it appears that Jehovah's Witnesses are rather a relatively new religious movement with no direct connection to apostolic Christianity.

  2. The Jerusalem "Governing Body" and Apostolic Succession

  The JW teaching asserts that the first-century Christian congregation was under the direction of a central "governing body" operating in Jerusalem. However, biblical and historical sources indicate that such a permanent "body" did not exist and that the Jerusalem council was more of an occasional assembly rather than a continuously functioning governing body.

  The historic churches, especially the Catholic Church, ensure continuity and unity of the Church through apostolic succession. The apostles chose successors who continued to carry on the Church's teachings and governance. This continuity and hierarchical structure are what is missing in the JW argument.

  3. Apostasy and the "Wheat" Parable

  According to the JW, the Christian congregation disappeared due to apostasy and was only restored in the "last days" (around 1914). They interpret the parable of the "wheat" and the "weeds" in Matthew 13:24-30 to mean that the "wheat" ("true" Christians) disappeared for a time because of the "weeds" ("false" Christians).

  However, in the parable, Jesus does not say that the "wheat" disappears but that it grows together with the "weeds" until the harvest. This means that the true Church was always present, though mixed with false Christianity. This interpretation is much more in line with the Catholic Church's view that the Church has been continuously present and active throughout history.

  While there have always been false teachers in the Church, they never completely took over. The interpretation of the "great apostasy" does not mean that the entire Church turned away from the true faith but that some people did, while the true faith remained within the Church.

  4. Did the True Church Disappear?

  The argument that the "great apostasy" did not mean the complete disappearance of the Church but rather the emergence of false teachers touches on several important points. The New Testament indeed contains warnings about false teachers, but these texts do not state that the entire Church will turn away from the faith or that the Church will cease to exist altogether. For example, in the Acts of the Apostles, Paul warns the Ephesian elders that "savage wolves will come in among you," who will "not spare the flock" (Acts 20:29-30). However, Paul does not say that the faith will completely disappear but that they must watch over it and stand firm in true teaching.

  The Bible speaks in several places about the Church not disappearing entirely, and indeed, Christ promises that the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). The Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed, which are based on the teachings of the early Church Fathers from the first few centuries, also show that the Church continued its work after the apostles and faithfully preserved the faith.

  The "great apostasy" theory, as promoted by groups like Jehovah's Witnesses, cannot be supported by credible historical evidence. The writings of the Church Fathers, who were in direct contact with the apostles, do not indicate a mass defection that would have led to the complete cessation of the Church. These writings and historical ecclesiastical traditions all show that the Church was continuously present and preserved the core truths of the Christian faith.

  The assumption that the true Christian faith would have been completely lost for 1800 years is also problematic since it contradicts the promises of Jesus and the apostles. If the Church had disappeared, why would we trust the canon of the New Testament, which was compiled by those early Church Fathers and councils who supposedly would have departed from the faith?

  In summary, the argument that the "great apostasy" did not mean the complete disappearance of the Church appears well-founded in light of both biblical texts and historical facts. The continuity of the Church and the preservation of the apostolic tradition demonstrate that the Christian faith was not lost but continuously present and influential in the world.

  5. Apostolic Succession and the Historical Credibility of the Church

  Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Catholic Church's doctrine of apostolic succession cannot be authenticated on either historical or biblical grounds. However, numerous biblical texts and early Christian writings support the existence of apostolic succession, such as in Acts 1:15-26, where Matthias is chosen to replace Judas.

  Apostolic succession is a historical fact, supported by the writings of the Church Fathers. This succession ensures the continuity of the Church's teachings and sacraments, which trace back to the apostolic age. The Catholic Church's credibility is based on this continuity, which the JW cannot refute.

  The "great apostasy" in Christian theology is interpreted as an event expected before the appearance of the Antichrist. The idea that the Church fell into apostasy in the early centuries is untenable because Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. The claim that the Church would have fallen into apostasy and ceased to exist for centuries contradicts Jesus' promise that the Church would endure until the end of time. The Church has continuously survived and is built on apostolic traditions. Movements that claim to have re-established the Church because it supposedly ceased to exist are fundamentally based on flawed assumptions. Apostolic teachings have been preserved in the Church, providing the foundation for its continuity. While there have been instances of corruption and errors in the Church's history, these never led to the Church's complete collapse. The Church, as a living organism, has continually fought against internal and external challenges, and this is what has kept it alive. The criticisms from Protestant and other religious groups that the Church fell into apostasy earlier are often based on justifying their existence. However, such claims do not consider the Church's historical continuity and Jesus' promises.

  The "great apostasy" in Christian eschatology (the study of the end times) is therefore interpreted as an event expected just before the appearance of the Antichrist. The Antichrist is the one who will perform miracles and try to deceive people by claiming to be God and sitting in God's temple.

  • 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12: The Apostle Paul clearly states that a "falling away" will occur before the appearance of the Antichrist, which many interpret as apostasy. However, this falling away does not mean the complete dissolution of the Church or its descent into heresy but rather a significant trial that the Church must endure.
  • Jude 3: The New Testament urges believers to continually contend for the faith and defend it against false teachings. This does not proclaim the disintegration of the faith but rather its protection and reinforcement. Overall, the continuity of the Church and its adherence to the true faith are fundamental to Christianity, and no new movement or teaching can stand that denies this continuity. The Church, as a community founded by Jesus, will endure until the end of time, even as it faces various challenges in different eras.

  Therefore, the Church not only has survived throughout the centuries, but Jesus promised that it will never disappear and that there will always be valid sacraments and saints within it. The "great apostasy" will only occur at the end of times, not immediately after the death of the apostles, as some religious groups claim. There has never been an event in the Church that could be called a "great apostasy," as some modern religious movements claim. The Church has always preserved the apostolic teaching, and although there have been internal conflicts and heresies, they never completely took over.

  6. The Historical Continuity of the Church and the Problem of "Re-establishment"

  If the Church had indeed lost its true faith and then had to be re-established in the 19th century, this would imply a kind of "second founding." This, however, would contradict Jesus' promise that the Church would not be overcome by the "gates of hell" (Matthew 16:18). If the Church had completely disappeared, then Jesus' promise would not be true, which is theologically unacceptable in a Christian belief system. The theology of the Watchtower Society, which claims that the true Church disappeared and then reappeared through Russell, leads to logical inconsistencies, as it would imply that the Church had two foundings, which is incompatible with the "eternal covenant" proclaimed by Jesus.

  Jesus' promise that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18) proclaims the Church's invincibility. This promise ensures that whatever happens in the world, the Church as Christ's earthly community will survive. Throughout its history, the Church has faced many challenges but has never been broken and has never lost its sacraments or teaching authority. This continuity is due to Christ's promises and the presence of the Holy Spirit. The idea that the Church fell into apostasy in the early centuries is fundamentally contradictory to the basic teachings of the Christian faith. If this were true, it would mean that Christ and the apostles' work was not successful and that the Church could not fulfill its mission.

  Protestants often hold that the Church is not necessarily a visible institution but the invisible community of believers. In contrast, Mormons argue that the true faith was distorted and needed to be re-established. Jehovah's Witnesses combine these two concepts, but in doing so, they weaken their own position. On the one hand, they emphasize the importance of a visible organization, while on the other hand, they cannot credibly prove that their organization is in continuous connection with the first-century Christian Church.

  The question of who entrusted Russell with the re-establishment of the Church further complicates the Watchtower Society's position. If the true Church had ceased to exist, how could Russell's mandate be legitimate? Moreover, if the Watchtower Society claims that there has always been a faithful group, why is there no historical evidence or written material to support this?

  The argument that 1914 could have been a turning point after which the Church was "lost" suggests that the previous Church was indeed true. However, the Watchtower's own literature suggests that God had already rejected the Church before then. This is contradictory because if the Church was true until 1914, why did it not remain so afterward?

  7. Extremes in Biblical Interpretation

  Biblical interpretation moves between two extremes: one extreme is that the Bible is so simple that no explanation is needed (Protestantism), while the other extreme over-mystifies the text, seeing hidden messages in every little motif (Gnosticism, Watchtower).

  However, the Bible is not just a text but a profound theological work that can be interpreted on different levels. While some parts are simple and direct, others are more complex and require appropriate theological knowledge and consideration of context. Finding the balance is crucial, and both excessive simplification and over-complication can be misleading. The tradition of the Catholic Church, for example, emphasizes apostolic succession and Sacred Tradition, which help in proper interpretation.

  8. The Legitimacy and Continuity of the Church

  The legitimacy of the Roman Catholic Church was not lost due to the sins of some of its members, and apostolic succession ensures its credibility. Arguments suggesting the loss of the Church's legitimacy are more often tools of sectarian rhetoric used by various religious movements.

  The Church's legitimacy does not depend on the moral failings of certain members but on apostolic succession and God's promise. The Church was founded by Jesus Christ, who promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). Despite the many difficulties and challenges in church history, the Church has maintained this continuity and fidelity to Christ's teachings.

  The "gates of hell" refer to the power of evil, the strength of the devil, and according to Jesus' promise, this power will never overcome the Church. The Church has faced various challenges over time, but according to Jesus' promise, it will always survive and never lose its strength. The phrase also implies that the Church will never be destroyed, there will always be valid sacraments, and there will always be saints within it. False teachings can never take over the Church. The Church is infallible, meaning that false teachings cannot gain dominion within it. According to the apostles' prophecies, there will always be false teachers, but they will never completely take over the Church. The Church is indefectible, meaning it will never completely disappear or cease to exist.

  9. Ockham's Razor and Theological Interpretation

  The preference for simple and reasonable explanations is important in theological interpretation as well, and it is not necessary to create complex conspiracy theories that suggest the devil has blinded everyone.

  Theological interpretation indeed requires reasonableness and simplicity, but simplicity should not equate to superficiality. The deep understanding of theological issues is often complex and requires a thorough knowledge of Scripture and tradition. The interpretation of the Catholic Church, for example, is based on the continuity of apostolic teachings and the traditions of the Church Fathers, providing a reliable and consistent framework for interpretation.

  10. The Church's Historical Role and the Issue of Heresy

  Heresies and new denominations often present themselves as defenders of "truth" while in reality opposing the historical and theological continuity of the Catholic Church.

  Heresies have always challenged the teachings of the Church, but the continuity of the Church and the consistency of its teachings prove its credibility. The Church has never ceased to proclaim the truth received from Christ, and through apostolic succession, it has preserved this tradition. The legitimacy of the Church is based on apostolic foundation and the consistently preserved teaching continuity over the centuries, which cannot be questioned by those trying to create new theologies.

  11. The Second Vatican Council and the current State of the Church

  Regarding the Second Vatican Council, while some directions may seem theologically harmful, this does not mean that the Church as a whole has fallen into heresy. The Church has never lost its apostolicity and continuity, even when internal problems and corruption occasionally arose. The challenges of modern times, such as the LGBTQ+ issue, require new approaches. Although I am critical of how Pope Francis handles this issue, he has not formally deviated from Catholic teachings and has not fallen into heresy. The Church can be described as a living organism that is constantly struggling with internal and external challenges. Despite the errors and corruption, the Church continues to exist because, according to God's promise, the "gates of hell" will not prevail against it.

  12. Conclusion

  The JW view that the true Church "disappeared" and was only "restored in the last days" (around 1914) contradicts Jesus' promise of the Church's continuous presence. The historical and theological continuity of the Church, especially in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, is a strong argument that Christ's Church has been continuously present throughout history, even amidst difficulties and apostasy. Apostolic succession and hierarchical structure have ensured that the Church has always followed Christ's teachings and remained faithful to apostolic tradition. The claim that Christianity already experienced the great apostasy is theologically and historically unfounded. The Church has always preserved the faith handed down by the apostles and protected by Christ's promises. Views that consider the "great apostasy" to have already occurred do not take into account the continuity of the Church and the clear teachings of Scripture.
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  171

  Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

  this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

  the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

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  aqwsed12345

  @Blotty

  Lexicons and dictionaries, while valuable tools, are not infallible and often reflect the prevailing interpretations and scholarly debates of their times. The BDAG lexicon, for instance, offers multiple meanings for ἀρχή, including "beginning," "origin," and "first cause." The choice of meaning in any given passage must be determined by context, not merely by dictionary entries.

  In Revelation 3:14, the context is critical. The verse describes Jesus as "the ἀρχή of God's creation." Given the consistent portrayal of Jesus as the agent of creation in John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:2-3, interpreting ἀρχή as "origin" or "first cause" aligns with the broader scriptural testimony that Jesus is the active agent through whom God created everything.

  Barnes' Notes is just one commentary and reflects one interpretation. There are numerous other reputable commentaries and scholars who interpret ἀρχή in Revelation 3:14 as "origin" or "source" rather than "commencement."

  The preposition ἐκ (ek) denotes origin or source, and its use with reference to the Father emphasizes the Father as the ultimate source of all creation. However, this does not negate the role of the Son as the agent of creation. John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:2 all emphasize that all things were made through (διὰ) the Son.The consistent New Testament portrayal is that the Father is the source (ἐκ), and the Son is the means or agent (διὰ) through whom creation came into being. This cooperative relationship underscores the distinct roles within the Godhead, not a hierarchy of being created.I note: according to the Trinitarian theology, the source of the Son is also the Father, you should not ignore this.

  While κτίζω and ποιέω can be used interchangeably in some contexts (especially in the LXX translation of the OT wisdom literature) to denote the act of bringing something into existence, there is a nuanced theological distinction when applied to the relationship between the Father and the Son. The Nicene Creed, reflecting early Church consensus, explicitly distinguishes between "begotten" (γεννηθέντα) and "made" (ποιηθέντα). The term "begotten" underscores the unique, eternal relationship between the Father and the Son, emphasizing that the Son shares the same divine nature as the Father and was not created or made in the same way as the rest of creation. Scripturally, Jesus is never described as having been created (κτίζω) or made (ποιέω) but consistently described as the begotten (μονογενής) Son of God (John 3:16, John 1:18). This indicates a unique generation from the Father, not an act of creation.

  Your argument rests on a selective interpretation of lexicon entries and an assumption that traditional theological distinctions between "begotten" and "created" are invalid. However, the broader context of Scripture, the nuanced understanding of Greek terms, and the theological consensus of the early Church Fathers all support the interpretation that Jesus, the Son of God, is not a created being but the eternally begotten, divine agent through whom all things were made. This aligns with the consistent biblical testimony of His divine nature and eternal existence.
• 
  171

  Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

  this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

  the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

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  aqwsed12345

  The Greek dictionary in my hand says:

  ἀρχή, ής, ή (ἄρχω) beginning of something; start. - 1. Concrete, local, and temporal meaning. σκεύος... τέσσαρσιν ἀρχαΐς καθιέμενον "a sheet... which was let down to earth by its four corners" Acts 10:11; 11:5. - Generally, but not exclusively, the temporal meaning comes to the fore, see Heb 5:12; 6:1; 7:3; ἀ. τῶν σημείων John 2:11; cf. Mt 24:8; Mk 13:8; ἀ. also refers to the beginning of a book Mark 1:1. - The temporal meaning is dominant in connections with prepositions: ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς "from the beginning" John 15:27; 1 John 2:7, 24; 3:11; 2 John 5, 6; Acts 26:4. In the same sense, ἐξ ἀρχῆς Luke 1:2; John 6:64; 16:4. ἐν ἀρχῇ as a nearly exact translation of the Hebrew bereshit in Genesis 1:1 is used provocatively in John 1:1: it is clear that this has nothing to do with the Greek philosophical concept of ἀρχή (cf. Latin principium), and does not intend to declare that fundamentally or in principle everything happened as described in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1; cf. also Acts 11:15; Philippians 4:15; similarly, Mt 19:4, 8; John 8:44; 1 John 1:1; 3:8; 2 Thess 2:13. - Substantivized prepositional phrase ἀπ' ἀρχῆς "who was from the beginning" 1 John 2:13. - This thought appears with further elaboration in ἀπ' ἀρχῆς κτίσεως "since the beginning of creation" (perhaps: "since creation, the beginning") Mark 10:6; 13:19; 2 Peter 3:4; ἀπ' ἀρχῆς τοῦ κόσμου Matthew 24:21. - κατ' ἀρχάς "in the beginning, at the very start" Hebrews 1:10 (Psalm 102:16): this - in line with the nature of Hebrews - implies much more of a "principle" element. - The original meaning shows a personal shift in Colossians 1:18 (cf. Acts 1:8 TR). - 2. In an abstract sense: principium = principle; the ultimate cause and (theoretical) explanation of the existence of the world; in this sense, only Revelation 3:14 (ἡ ἀ. τῆς κτίσεως) is relevant, but even here, the meaning of ἀπαρχή is more likely. - 3. As another aspect of "primacy": in the sense of rule, dominion, power, it is used partly for earthly, partly for heavenly "angelic" authorities, the word appears in Luke 20:20; plural in Luke 12:11; Titus 3:1. Transferred to the angelic realm, but with the basic meaning being earthly-concrete Romans 8:38; 1 Corinthians 15:24; Ephesians 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; Colossians 1:16; 2:10, 15. - 4. In a very abstract sense, sphere of influence, in the New Testament only in Jude 6: "angels... who did not keep their own position". - 5. A very special case in John 8:25 this sentence: τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν; uncertain punctuation (depending on it being a question or statement), but also uncertain is the meaning of τὴν ἀρχὴν at the beginning of the sentence. If we want to develop in the direction of the least linguistic resistance, the solution is roughly this: "Why do I speak to you at all?" This gives an acceptable meaning in the context but doesn't touch on the essence even remotely. The most correct, therefore, is to consider τὴν ἀρχὴν as an object accusative, then the translation is approximately: "Why should I speak to you about the beginning?" (a question with an unreal indicative statement; cf. 1:1). The continuation shows that in the Johannine sense, ἀρχή can mean "beginning" in a certain sense, but certainly not the "first step". Many things still need to be clarified before that.

  To address the argument presented by the Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding the interpretation of Revelation 3:14 and related passages, it is important to delve into the linguistic, cultural, and theological contexts of the terms used, as well as the broader scriptural narrative.

  Detailed Rebuttal

  1. Linguistic Considerations: The Meaning of "ἀρχή" (archē)

  The BDAG Lexicon does mention that "first created" is a linguistically (!!!) "probable" meaning for "ἀρχή" in Revelation 3:14. However, it also notes other meanings such as "origin" or "ruler," which are equally plausible given the broader biblical context. The term "ἀρχή" is multi-faceted and can be interpreted based on the context in which it is used. In the case of Revelation 3:14, understanding "ἀρχή" as "origin" or "source" aligns more consistently with the overall depiction of Christ in the New Testament.

  2. Cultural Context: Jewish Wisdom Tradition

  The argument that the New Testament passages draw on the Jewish Wisdom tradition, where Wisdom is seen as God’s first creation or a principal angel, requires careful examination. While Jewish literature does personify Wisdom, attributing divine characteristics and a role in creation, the New Testament distinctly presents Jesus not merely as personified Wisdom but as the incarnate Word (Logos) of God, which goes beyond the Jewish Wisdom literature.

  • John 1:1-3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." This passage clearly distinguishes the Word (Logos) as eternally existent and directly involved in creation, not as a created being.
  • Colossians 1:15-17: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." The term "firstborn" (πρωτότοκος, prototokos) here signifies preeminence and authority, not creation. It emphasizes that all creation is through and for Christ, underscoring His supremacy over creation.
  • Hebrews 1:2-3: "In these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word."

  These passages collectively affirm that Jesus, as the Logos, is eternal and integral to creation, not a part of it.

  3. Theological Consistency: Jesus as Creator

  Interpreting "ἀρχή" as "first created" in Revelation 3:14 would indeed contradict other New Testament passages that emphasize Jesus' role as the Creator:

  • John 1:3: "All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." This statement categorically places Jesus as the agent of creation, excluding the possibility of Him being a created entity.
  • 1 Corinthians 8:6: "Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." This verse distinguishes the roles within the Godhead but clearly asserts that all things come through Jesus.
  • Colossians 1:16: Reinforces that all things were created through and for Christ, emphasizing His preexistence and active role in creation.
  • Hebrews 1:2: Declares that through the Son, God made the universe, highlighting the Son's divine agency in creation.

  Addressing Historical Context vs. Fourth Century Trinitarian Context

  The claim that interpreting these passages within a fourth-century Trinitarian context is outside their historical setting fails to consider the inherent and consistent depiction of Christ’s divinity and preexistence in the New Testament. The early Church Fathers, who were closer in time to the apostolic teachings, interpreted these texts in light of Christ’s divine nature, as seen in their writings and creeds.

  Conclusion

  While the term "ἀρχή" can have multiple meanings, the context of Revelation 3:14, along with the broader scriptural testimony, supports the understanding of Jesus as the origin or source of creation, not a created being. The interpretation that aligns with the entire biblical narrative and maintains theological consistency is that Jesus, the Logos, is eternal, preexistent, and integral to creation. Thus, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ interpretation that Jesus was created is not supported by the comprehensive biblical evidence.

  
  

  Response to the Arguments Regarding Revelation 3:14 and Related Passages

  1. Intellectual Conviction vs. Emotional Argumentation: The claim that my arguments are based on intellectual conviction rather than emotion stands. Intellectual debate often involves presenting strong convictions and supporting them with evidence, which is not inherently emotional or hateful. Ad hominem attacks do not address the substance of the argument.

  2. Understanding 'Beginning' in Biblical Context: The term "beginning" (ἀρχή) in biblical literature is multi-faceted. While it can mean "commencement" as the JW argues, it also holds the connotation of "origin" or "first cause," particularly in theological contexts. For example, in Proverbs 9:10 and Psalm 111:10, "beginning" refers to the foundational principle, not merely the start of a sequence.

  3. Barnes’ Notes on Psalm 111:10 and Revelation 3:14: Barnes interprets "beginning" in Psalm 111:10 as the foundation of wisdom, implying its origin. Similarly, while he acknowledges that ἀρχή in Revelation 3:14 can denote "commencement," he also affirms that it is appropriate to see Christ as the originator of creation, consistent with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16.

  4. Lexical Evidence: The BDAG Lexicon does list "first created" as a linguistically probable meaning of ἀρχή in Revelation 3:14, but it also includes "origin" and "first cause." This range of meanings suggests that context is crucial in determining the appropriate translation. The broader context of the New Testament consistently portrays Christ as the active agent in creation, not as a created being (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2-3).

  5. Jewish Wisdom Tradition: While the Jewish Wisdom tradition describes Wisdom as the first of God’s creations, the New Testament writers apply these concepts to Christ in a way that emphasizes His preexistence and divinity. For example, John 1:1-3 identifies Jesus as the Logos who was with God in the beginning and through whom all things were made. This application transcends the Wisdom tradition by attributing creation's active cause to Christ.

  6. Passive vs. Active Verbs in Creation: The use of passive verbs in Colossians 1:16 and John 1:3 does not diminish Christ’s role in creation. Instead, it highlights that all things were created "through" Him, indicating His instrumental role in the divine creative act. This is consistent with the theological portrayal of Christ as the divine Logos.

  7. Philo’s Influence and Biblical Philosophy: Philo's use of ἀρχή to mean "beginning" or "origin" supports the interpretation of Christ as the originator of creation. While Philo was a philosopher, his concepts influenced early Christian thought. The New Testament writers, though not philosophers in the technical sense, engaged with contemporary Hellenistic ideas to communicate theological truths.

  8. Trinitarian Context and Historical Setting: Understanding passages like Revelation 3:14 within the broader context of the New Testament and early Christian theology does not impose a fourth-century Trinitarian framework anachronistically. Instead, it respects the development of doctrine that arose from the scriptural witness to Christ’s divinity and role in creation.

  9. Christ as the Source of Creation: Interpreting Christ as the source of creation is consistent with the broader New Testament witness. Passages such as John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 explicitly state that all things were made through Him. This understanding does not conflict with the portrayal of God the Father as the ultimate source, as it reflects the cooperative work within the Trinity.

  10. Theological Consistency: Interpreting ἀρχή in Revelation 3:14 as "origin" or "first cause" maintains theological consistency with the rest of the New Testament. This view upholds Christ's divinity, preexistence, and active role in creation, avoiding the contradiction that would arise from viewing Him as a created being.

  11. Proverbs 8 and Wisdom Literature: Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom, which early Christians saw as a typological reference to Christ. The use of first-person pronouns for Wisdom in Proverbs does not necessitate a direct equivalence but rather points to the preexistent Logos who embodies divine wisdom.

  12. Begotten vs. Created: The early church distinguished between "begotten" and "created." While some early texts used these terms interchangeably, the Nicene Creed clarified that Christ is "begotten, not made," affirming His eternal generation from the Father. This doctrinal development reflects a deeper understanding of scriptural teaching on Christ's nature.

  In conclusion, the interpretation of ἀρχή in Revelation 3:14 as "origin" or "first cause" aligns with the broader New Testament portrayal of Christ as the divine agent of creation. This view respects both the lexical range of the term and the theological context of the entire biblical corpus.

  @Blotty

  Response to the Arguments Regarding Revelation 3:14 and Related Passages

  1. Intellectual Conviction vs. Emotional Argumentation: The claim that my arguments are based on intellectual conviction rather than emotion stands. Intellectual debate often involves presenting strong convictions and supporting them with evidence, which is not inherently emotional or hateful. Ad hominem attacks do not address the substance of the argument.

  2. Understanding 'Beginning' in Biblical Context: The term "beginning" (ἀρχή) in biblical literature is multi-faceted. While it can mean "commencement" as the JWs argue, it also holds the connotation of "origin" or "first cause," particularly in theological contexts. For example, in Proverbs 9:10 and Psalm 111:10, "beginning" refers to the foundational principle, not merely the start of a sequence.

  3. Barnes’ Notes on Psalm 111:10 and Revelation 3:14: Barnes interprets "beginning" in Psalm 111:10 as the foundation of wisdom, implying its origin. Similarly, while he acknowledges that ἀρχή in Revelation 3:14 can denote "commencement," he also affirms that it is appropriate to see Christ as the originator of creation, consistent with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16.

  4. Lexical Evidence: The BDAG Lexicon does list "first created" as a linguistically (!!!) "probable" meaning of ἀρχή in Revelation 3:14, but it also includes "origin" and "first cause." This range of meanings suggests that context is crucial in determining the appropriate translation. The broader context of the New Testament consistently portrays Christ as the active agent in creation, not as a created being (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2-3).

  5. Jewish Wisdom Tradition: While the Jewish Wisdom tradition describes Wisdom as the first of God’s creations, the New Testament writers apply these concepts to Christ in a way that emphasizes His preexistence and divinity. For example, John 1:1-3 identifies Jesus as the Logos who was with God in the beginning and through whom all things were made. This application transcends the Wisdom tradition by attributing creation's active cause to Christ.

  6. Passive vs. Active Verbs in Creation: The use of passive verbs in Colossians 1:16 and John 1:3 does not diminish Christ’s role in creation. Instead, it highlights that all things were created "through" Him, indicating His instrumental role in the divine creative act. This is consistent with the theological portrayal of Christ as the divine Logos.

  7. Philo’s Influence and Biblical Philosophy: Philo's use of ἀρχή to mean "beginning" or "origin" supports the interpretation of Christ as the originator of creation. While Philo was a philosopher, his concepts influenced early Christian thought. The New Testament writers, though not philosophers in the technical sense, engaged with contemporary Hellenistic ideas to communicate theological truths.

  8. Trinitarian Context and Historical Setting: Understanding passages like Revelation 3:14 within the broader context of the New Testament and early Christian theology does not impose a fourth-century Trinitarian framework anachronistically. Instead, it respects the development of doctrine that arose from the scriptural witness to Christ’s divinity and role in creation.

  9. Christ as the Source of Creation: Interpreting Christ as the source of creation is consistent with the broader New Testament witness. Passages such as John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 explicitly state that all things were made through Him. This understanding does not conflict with the portrayal of God the Father as the ultimate source, as it reflects the cooperative work within the Trinity.

  10. Theological Consistency: Interpreting ἀρχή in Revelation 3:14 as "origin" or "first cause" maintains theological consistency with the rest of the New Testament. This view upholds Christ's divinity, preexistence, and active role in creation, avoiding the contradiction that would arise from viewing Him as a created being.

  11. Proverbs 8 and Wisdom Literature: Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom, which early Christians saw as a typological reference to Christ. The use of first-person pronouns for Wisdom in Proverbs does not necessitate a direct equivalence but rather points to the preexistent Logos who embodies divine wisdom.

  12. Begotten vs. Created: The early church distinguished between "begotten" and "created." While some early, especially Wisdom literature OT texts used these terms interchangeably, the Nicene Creed clarified that Christ is "begotten, not made," affirming His eternal generation from the Father. This doctrinal development reflects a deeper understanding of scriptural teaching on Christ's nature. Dionysius of Rome, in his letter "Against the Sabellians," criticizes those who interpret Proverbs 8:22 to mean that the Son was created. He argues that interpreting "created" (ἔκτισέν) as "made" or "fashioned" is a grave error. He emphasizes that the term "created" in this context should be understood as "appointed" or "established" over God's works, made by the Son Himself, rather than implying the Son’s creation. Dionysius points out the difference between creating (κτίζω) and making (ποιέω), arguing that the Son’s divine and ineffable generation cannot be reduced to the concept of making or creating in a human sense. He highlights that the Son is described in many passages as being "begotten" but never as having "come into being," thereby rejecting the notion that the Son is a created entity.

  In conclusion, the interpretation of ἀρχή in Revelation 3:14 as "origin" or "first cause" aligns with the broader New Testament portrayal of Christ as the divine agent of creation. This view respects both the lexical range of the term and the theological context of the entire biblical corpus.
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  4

  The Phenomenology of Sectarianism

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the analysis of sectarianism has topical relevance today, and increasingly so.

  however, the scarcity and insignificance of the responses to the challenge of sectarianism create the impression as if, for some unknown reason, the historical churches would avoid this challenge.

  they usually satisfy themselves with emphasizing the dangers of sectarianism and the sweeping condemnation of sects - which, although often true, does not delve into the depths of the phenomenon; and does not help those who it is intended for to understand; or they point to the heretical nature of individual sects, the distortions in their teachings, their lack of catholicity, and usually do not omit the self-critical observation that in terms of trust and faith, community, and devotion, we too can learn a lot from them.

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  aqwsed12345

  At the end of the 20th century, various sects proliferated like mushrooms, among which there were peaceful seekers and aggressively destructive spirits. This is not only caused by Christianity sometimes being unable to keep up with the challenges of our time or inherently rejecting certain aspirations (e.g., self-redemption, reincarnation, pantheism, universal orientation, etc.), but often there is a pursuit of business profit, economic and political domination behind them. In order to defend ourselves against the activities of destructive sects (e.g., New Age, Silva Mind Control, Church of Scientology, Moon Movement, Faith Church, Society for Krishna Consciousness, Jehovah's Witnesses, Children of God, Satanists, etc.), we must understand their methods, aspirations, and tools; if possible, we must uncover the harmful forces and interest groups lurking in the background.

  Many sects specifically intend to disrupt Christian unity and call for the contempt of traditional religious communities, although they refer to Christian principles (the Bible) in their teachings. Others openly turn towards Eastern cults, discrediting or denying Christian churches, claiming that they are incapable of realizing the unity of people, universal balance, thus their historical role is over.

  Communism proved that breeding a religionless human type is impossible. Jesus encouraged patient cross-bearing, aimed at the innermost, radical transformation of man, genuine love of mankind, and service to God, proclaiming the resurrection of the body and soul. Sects consider the training, manipulation, and gathering of people into phalanxes to be sufficient. They aim to awaken the repressed subconscious with psychological tools, primarily hunting for weak-willed, crisis-stricken, distorted personalities. They provide one-sided explanations for complex phenomena, irresponsibly take on the difficulty and responsibility of decisions, and offer hiding places instead of solving problems. They promise a new, real life, perfect self-fulfillment, complete personality change. They disregard human freedom rights, thus the freedom of will, conscience, choice, love, and quiet contemplation, and only ensure insular enthusiasm, violent exclusivity, primitive herd mentality. Between the members and God steps in a teacher or guru, the absolute custodian of the truth. The dogma system of the sects is closed and unquestionable, therefore they sharply separate, are incapable of dialogue, and only increase misunderstanding, hatred, and the number of ruined lives in the world. Ultimately, they escape from problems, distance themselves from reality, and make their members emotionally unstable, spiritually barren, and sick.

  It is virtually irrelevant how individual sects define themselves. Much more important is their public and hidden activities, their overall toxic impact. They pull their members out of their family, school, and workplace relationships, subordinating them to a Leader or Savior, burning all bridges behind them. Often, they target the middle class and intellectuals, trying to convert them through influential personalities. They exploit society's difficulties (housing shortage, unemployment, hunger, impoverishment), ride on public life, religion, education, vegetarian nutrition, leisure activities, civil organizations, certain professions, and naturally, the media. Most cults don the guise of a worldview or religious group and find ways to reach, contact, and immediately influence any age group. They often bind their targets with free language courses, foreign trips or scholarships, weekend seminars, computer management training, and similar activities. Religious or atheist, in an uncertain existential situation, open and curious, waiting for help—almost anyone can become a potential victim.

  Sects are highly active in the stock market, real estate market, advertising industry, drug trade, press (own newspapers, book publishers!), and politics. Their economic activities are marked by bars, restaurants, hotels, museums, arms, machine, and car factories, farms, fishing fleets, banks. They treat people as commodities, disregard existing customs and laws, tear apart family bonds, arbitrarily control spouses and children; they reintroduce slavery, total legal and economic dependency, and trample on human dignity.

  Through mind control, psychological influence, and small group sessions, they affect the spiritual sphere, weaken the will, direct feelings and thoughts, control individual tendencies and behavior, determine activities and interests, block access to information and truth, and deprive individuals of minimal independence and critical ability. They prevent leaving the sect and returning to society with intimidation, cruel punitive sanctions, and excommunication, often driving their members to nervous breakdowns or suicide. Conditioning for obedience, reeducation, and identification with the group involve simplifying thinking, introducing a new metalanguage, instilling monotonous prayer chanting, meditative songs and war slogans, continuous propaganda and book selling, constant work, minimal rest, and a complete change of identity. The rejection of difference and criticism, branding opposition as demonic or satanic, waiting for the end of the world, fostering a sense of persecution, and the suppression or unscrupulous expression of emotions are highly characteristic.

  Destructive cults generally shroud the true nature of their organization and actual leadership in secrecy. If they are exposed somewhere, they relocate to a different environment. Often, they crave economic and political power in the background, using their members merely as pawns. In extreme cases, they do not shy away from violent acts, crimes, or even murders. The murky ideology, the dual truth proclaimed outwardly and inwardly, the brazenly pushy agitation, the possession of the philosopher's stone, the fraud and manipulation, the lack of tolerance all inherently warn us to be cautious of them. If possible, we should say a clear no to them and avoid encounters, visiting their events, or meetings. We must be careful that our immature children do not fall into their clutches!

  It is difficult to judge who or what organizations are actually behind the individual sects. It is undeniable that both at home and abroad, there are intellectual-political cliques, Freemason and cosmopolitan clans, banking groups, conspiratorial mafias striving for world domination, whose interests lie in weakening and destroying the historical Christian churches and even society as a whole. Destructive sects unleash the basest instincts and slave-holding tendencies of humans; they subjugate, schematize individuality, wither the basic units of life, the families; they throw away invaluable cultural treasures and instead instill a false image of God ("We are God!"), distorted consciousness in their followers, and generate fear and neurosis. Neither human rights nor religious freedom justify tolerating, let alone supporting, such sects, which can be considered the cancerous tumors of humanity. Churches and society must resolutely fight against them. We must uncover their essence, their anti-democratic, fascistoid nature, and unite to ban and destroy them.
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  78

  God, one person, or three?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the trinity doctrine says god is three persons in one being.. yet the bible says god is one.. gal 3.20 a mediator, however, implies more than one party; but god is one.

  niv.

  gal 3.20 now a mediator is not for just one person, but god is one.

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  aqwsed12345

  Those who do not accept the Trinity often argue that it was introduced into Christianity through the influence of Greek philosophy and pagan deities, during long theological debates. This argument seems to fall apart, as the foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity can be demonstrated solely from Scripture. The Old Testament indicates that there is a certain plurality in the Godhead, and the New Testament details this plurality, establishing the theory of Trinitarian monotheism. There is no need to consider the councils and theological debates of the early centuries to prove the Trinity, as the Bible alone (sola Scriptura) is sufficient. We are not influenced by Greek philosophers or early church fathers who debated the Trinity, if we turn solely to the Bible and pray for the Spirit of God to lead us into all truth and teach us the truth (John 16:13; 1 John 2:27).

  Nonetheless, important events occurred in the first centuries concerning the doctrine. Christians have always been warned to "contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints" (Jude 3). As early as the 1st century, there were movements that questioned the clear declarations of the Bible. Some denied that Jesus lived among us in a real body, questioning his incarnation. In response, John wrote, "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist" (2 John 7). Believers had to defend their faith against false ideas and fight for the truth from early on, and this only intensified in later centuries. Christians in apostolic times believed in one God, and within that one God, they worshiped the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There was no need to explicitly formulate the doctrine of the Trinity until it was challenged. It was natural for everyone to believe that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Without explicitly stating it, Christians implicitly believed in it. However, when criticisms of the doctrine emerged, it became necessary for the church to officially define what it meant by the Trinity.

  The aim of defining the doctrine was not to explain God's existence and confine it to human categories. The early believers were simply motivated by apologetic reasons: they wanted to avoid what the Bible did not teach. The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated against theories like modalism, Arianism, and tritheism. These either denied the personhood of the Holy Spirit or/and the fully human and fully divine nature of Jesus. Modalism did not consider that within the single divine essence, there are three distinct persons, asserting instead that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three manifestations of the same person. This view was soon rejected because it was clear that all three persons exist and manifest themselves distinctively within the Godhead simultaneously. The theory thus emphasized the oneness of God. In contrast, tritheism overly highlighted the distinctiveness of the three persons, falling into the opposite extreme by speaking of three separate, independent gods. These views were not tenable within the church because they contradicted the testimony of the Bible. It was necessary to distance themselves from these and precisely define what orthodox, Scripture-faithful Christians could accept regarding the nature of God and what they could not.

  In this atmosphere lived and worked Athanasius, who fought vigorously against the spread of Arianism. He was often exiled from his episcopal office but steadfastly held to his faith and refused to compromise. Although many bishops and church dignitaries in his time inclined towards accepting Arianism (which taught that only the Father is God, and the Son is a created being), many Christians clung to what they saw in the Bible. During the prolonged struggle, Emperor Constantine sought to unify Christianity. As a Roman emperor, he saw the unity of the empire in the unity of Christianity. Therefore, he wanted to settle the issue and convened an ecumenical council in Nicaea (325) for the bishops to agree on the truth. There, they adopted a Trinitarian creed. However, the debate continued, and the Arians temporarily prevailed, as an emperor who accepted Arius's teachings, Constantius, ascended the throne. He was followed by Theodosius I, who convened another council in Constantinople, where they reaffirmed the Nicene Creed:

  "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
  And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

  Of course, the history of the doctrine is much more complex. The most important thing to see is that the doctrine was not invented at the Councils of Nicaea (325) and Constantinople (381); it was merely universally formulated as the truth recognized from the Bible and believed in the preceding centuries. It did not develop under the influence of pagan deities and triads, nor Greek philosophical thinking. The foundation of the Trinity is the Scripture. It was formulated to defend the information found in the Bible and to prevent heretical teachings.

  What is the importance of the doctrine of the Trinity? Firstly, the doctrine is inseparable from one of God's fundamental attributes. If God existed as only one person, He could not be who He is. God is love (1 John 4:8), but love is a relational concept, and if God had been a solitary being before the creation of the world, He could not be love without His creatures; He would need others to be who He is. However, God is the Almighty, self-sufficient, needing nothing from anyone else. Within the Godhead, there have always been three persons who shared perfect love even before the creation of the world. Yet, it was only with the New Testament, with the distinct appearance of the Son and the Spirit as divine persons, that it could be said, "God is love" (1 John 4:16).

  Secondly, the doctrine is inseparable from the doctrine of redemption. We are sinners, and God is just. Our sins must either be accounted for us (justly punished), or God must bear the cost Himself and provide satisfaction (He offers atonement) and forgive (cancels the debt). If God were to forgive "just like that" without atonement, He would not be just. Since we sinned against Him, we must receive forgiveness from Him, but no one can compel Him to forgive, and no creature (human, animal, angel) can offer atonement to the Creator for themselves or another creature. Animal sacrifices were only temporary and could not cleanse the conscience (Hebrews 10:2-4). If God arbitrarily chose an innocent creature (e.g., an angel) to suffer in place of humans, it would demonstrate that He is unjust, unable to resolve the situation on His own, and we would be grateful to the angel for forgiveness, not to God. If an angel volunteered to be a scapegoat, it would still mean God was unjust, unable to solve the situation on His own, and furthermore, indebted to one of His creatures, who would receive more gratitude than God. However, God became man in Jesus, and on the cross, "God obtained His church with His own blood" (Hebrews 9:12, Acts 20:28 cf. Revelation 1:17-18). God is just, but He loved us so much that He did not want to punish us: when the Son became man in Jesus, He made atonement to the Father on the cross; all this happened "within God." If God were not a Trinity, we could not be redeemed in a way that preserves God's omnipotence, upholds justice, makes His love real, and directs all gratitude to Him alone.

  Thirdly, the doctrine is inseparable from Christian ethics. The perfect relationship within the Godhead serves as an example for us. As the Father loved the Son, so the Son loved us, and we must love one another with this same love (John 15:9-12). This love is made real, experienceable, and transmittable through the divine and personal nature of the persons and the work of the Holy Spirit.

  A brief theological perspective: As you probably know, Islam professes strict monotheism, meaning it does not tolerate any plurality in God, Allah. He is only one person and has existed alone for all time. However, there is a problem. According to traditional interpretation, the text of the Quran is not created in time but has existed eternally. This is logical because if something is revealed truth, it must also be timeless. And again, we arrive at the same issue: there necessarily must be at least two entities in eternity: one originating and one originated. This, however, violates the strict monotheism of Islam, and Islamic theology struggles to address this. This problem was recognized by the theological school of the Mutazilites, originating from Sunni Islam but utilizing principles of Hellenistic philosophy. They realized that the idea that the Quran is not created but eternal challenges the oneness of Allah (more precisely, His unique eternality) because it implies that alongside Allah, there is something else that has existed eternally. This dualistic viewpoint is incompatible with Allah's teachings found within the Quran itself. Thus, they argue similarly to Arianism: the Quran, as the World of God, is the first but most excellent creation (not speaking of a person, but of a revealed entity), yet this again leads to a contradiction as mentioned above. :-) Doesn't this brief perspective remind you of the Christian doctrine of the Logos (λόγος)? :-)
  
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  171

  Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

  this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

  the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

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  aqwsed12345

  @Blotty

  I don't have any kind of "hatred" towards anyone or any point of view: arguing, polemicizing against a point of view does not come from emotion ("hate") but from intellectual conviction.
  

  The "beginning" of something, just as in Proverbs 9:10, Psalm 110:10, Sirach 37:16, Wisdom 14:27. The "beginning" of the creation is not that with which creation began, but that by which creation began and took place, so the theological content of this expression is exactly the same as Colossians 1:16, or John 1:3.

  Anyway, you should read this through:

  Arian Objections To The Trinity Refuted

  The assertion that "arkhē" solely indicates "commencement" and not "authorship" requires a broader consideration of the word's use in various contexts, particularly in philosophical and theological discussions. While dictionaries are valuable tools for understanding words, they often summarize meanings and do not capture the full spectrum of use in different contexts, especially in scriptural texts where nuanced interpretations are common.

  1. Broad Semantic Range: The Greek term "ἀρχή" (arkhē) indeed means "beginning," but its usage is not restricted to indicating a mere commencement in time. In philosophical discourse, as noted in the source you mentioned, "arkhē" can denote the "first cause" or "principle." This is particularly relevant in theological contexts where "first cause" doesn't imply being created but being preeminent and the originating source. For instance, Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher, uses "arkhē" to describe the Logos (Word) as the intermediary divine being through whom the cosmos was created. Philo, a contemporary of Paul and Jesus in the 1st century A.D., uses "ἀρχὴ" in a similar sense to denote the source or origin of creation: he refers to God as the "beginning of creation" (ἀρχὴ γενέσεως), emphasizing that God is the origin and source of all creation, not part of it. This usage supports the understanding of "ἀρχὴ" as originator.
     The dictionary citation you provided acknowledges that "arkhe" can indeed mean "first cause" or "origin," supporting the interpretation that Christ is the source of creation. Here is the relevant portion:
     "the first cause, the beginning (philos. t.t. ODittrich, D. Systeme d. Moral I 1923, 360a, 369a;—Ael. Aristid. 43, 9 K.=1 p. 3 D.: ἀρχὴ ἁπάντων Ζεύς τε καὶ ἐκ Διὸς πάντα; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 190 God as ἀρχὴ κ. μέσα κ. τέλος τῶν πάντων [contrast SIG 1125, 10f]) of Christ ἡ ἀ. τῆς κτίσεως Rv 3:14."
     This indicates that even within philosophical and theological contexts, "arkhe" can signify "first cause," aligning with the interpretation of Christ as the origin of all creation.
  2. Dictionaries and Lexicons: The term "arkhe" is multifaceted. While it often denotes "beginning" or "commencement," it also implies "origin," "source," and "first cause."
     BDAG (Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Lexicon) lists "beginning, origin, first cause, ruler, authority" among its meanings, explicitly recognizing the term's application to Christ in Revelation 3:14 as the "origin" of God's creation.
     Thayer's Greek Lexicon also supports this interpretation, noting that "arkhe" can mean "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause." This aligns perfectly with understanding Christ as the originator of creation.
  3. Philosophical and Theological Usage: The use of "arkhē" in philosophical works often parallels its usage in theological contexts to denote not just the start but the cause or source. For example, Aristotle discusses "arkhē" as the "principle" or "origin" from which things come into being. This does not imply that the "arkhē" itself is created but rather that it is the originator or causal agent.
  4. Contextual Analysis of Revelation 3:14: In Revelation 3:14, the phrase "ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ Θεοῦ" (the beginning of God's creation) can be understood as stating Christ's role as the originating source of all creation. This aligns with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, where Christ is described as the agent through whom all things were created. To interpret "arkhē" as indicating Christ as the first created entity contradicts the broader theological testimony of the New Testament regarding His divine nature and role in creation.
  5. Linguistic and Exegetical Considerations: While some argue that "arkhē" in Revelation 3:14 means the first created, such a reading introduces a theological inconsistency with the rest of the New Testament, where Christ's begottenness, preexistence and role as the agent of the creation are emphasized. The interpretation of "arkhē" as "first cause" or "originator" fits more cohesively with the scriptural depiction of Christ's divine status and function.
  6. Theological Implications: Adopting a view where "arkhē" means "first created" raises significant theological concerns about the nature of Christ and His relationship to the Father. Such a view would place Christ within the created order, fundamentally altering the Christian understanding of the the eternally begotten nature of the Son.

  In summary, while dictionaries provide foundational meanings, the interpretation of terms like "arkhē" must consider broader scriptural, theological, and philosophical contexts. In Revelation 3:14, understanding "arkhē" as indicating Christ's preeminent authority and role as the originating source of all creation is both linguistically viable and theologically consistent.

  https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2018/12/13/does-revelation-314-teach-jesus-is-gods-first-creation-pt-1/

  https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2018/12/13/does-revelation-314-teach-that-jesus-is-gods-first-creation-pt-2/
  
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  Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

  this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

  the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

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  aqwsed12345

  Refutation of Arian Objections Based on Revelation 3:14

  Jehovah's Witnesses often cite Revelation 3:14 to support their view that Jesus is a created being. The verse states, "These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation." They interpret "the beginning of God's creation" (Greek: arche tes ktiseos tou Theou) to mean that Jesus is the first being created by God. This interpretation, however, is flawed when considering the broader biblical context and the nuanced meanings of the Greek terms used.

  Contextual Analysis

  1. Revelation 3:15 and Omniscience: Immediately after Revelation 3:14, Jesus states, "I know thy works." This suggests omniscience, a divine attribute, supporting His deity.
  2. Jesus as Judge: Revelation 2:23 shows Jesus searching hearts and rewarding deeds, roles attributed to Jehovah alone in several Old Testament scriptures.
  3. Loving Chastener: Revelation 3:19 refers to Jesus as one who rebukes and chastens those He loves, similar to descriptions of God in Deuteronomy, Psalms, and Proverbs.
  4. Omnipresence: Revelation 3:20 implies Jesus' ability to be present with all who seek Him, requiring omnipresence, another divine attribute.

  Analysis of "Arche"

  The term "arche" in Greek can mean "beginning," but it can also mean "origin," "source," or "ruler." In the context of Revelation 3:14, "arche" is best understood as "the origin" or "the source" of creation. This aligns with the portrayal of Jesus throughout the New Testament as the agent through whom God created all things. For instance, John 1:3 states, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." This clearly positions Jesus not as a part of creation, but as its source.

  Supporting Biblical Texts

  To further clarify, Colossians 1:16-17 says, "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." These verses emphasize Jesus' preexistence and role as the Creator, not a created being. Hebrews 1:2-3 similarly describes Jesus as the one "through whom also he made the universe" and as "the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being."

  Early Church Understanding

  The early church fathers consistently affirmed the eternal divinity of Christ. For example, Athanasius argued against the Arian interpretation by emphasizing that Jesus, as the Logos, is eternal and uncreated. He pointed out that if Jesus were a created being, He could not be the source of all creation.

  Addressing the Jehovah's Witness Translation

  The New World Translation (NWT) used by Jehovah's Witnesses adds the word "other" in Colossians 1:16 to suggest that Jesus is part of creation: "By means of him all [other] things were created." This insertion is not present in the Greek text and alters the meaning to fit their theological agenda. Such an addition lacks textual support and violates principles of accurate translation.

  Theological Implications

  The interpretation of Jesus as a created being undermines the doctrine of the Trinity and the full divinity of Christ. It conflicts with numerous scriptural affirmations of Jesus' deity and His role as Creator. The proper understanding of Revelation 3:14 within its biblical context reinforces the orthodox Christian belief in Jesus' eternal and uncreated nature.

  Revelation 3:14, when correctly interpreted, does not support the Arian view that Jesus is a created being. Instead, it affirms His position as the source and ruler of all creation. The broader scriptural context and the original Greek terminology reveal that Jesus is eternally divine, coexistent with the Father, and the agent through whom all things were made. This understanding is crucial for maintaining the integrity of Christian doctrine and refuting Arian objections.

  The document "Arian Objections To The Trinity Refuted" is a detailed refutation of the Arian interpretation of Revelation 3:14, which describes Jesus Christ as "the beginning of the creation of God." The Arian view suggests that this phrase means Christ was the first created being, thus denying His divinity and supporting Unitarianism. The author systematically deconstructs this argument using scriptural context, Greek lexicon definitions, and early Christian literature.

  The author begins by explaining the Arian position, which asserts that Jesus was a created spirit being, similar to angels, and that He did not exist before His creation. They interpret "beginning" as "one begun," equating it with "the first creature created by God." However, the author argues that this interpretation neglects the broader context of Revelation 3:14 and other scriptural references that affirm Christ's divinity.

  To counter the Arian argument, the author examines the context in which Revelation 3:14 is situated. He notes that the surrounding verses affirm Christ's deity. For instance, in Revelation 3:15, Jesus claims omniscience by stating He knows all the works of the Laodicean church, a trait attributed only to God. Moreover, in Revelation 2:23, Christ declares that He searches the hearts and minds, a function ascribed to Jehovah alone in the Old Testament. This context suggests that Christ's declaration of being the "beginning" should be understood in a way that affirms His divinity, not denies it.

  The author further explores the lexical meaning of the Greek word "arche," translated as "beginning" in Revelation 3:14. He cites several authoritative Greek lexicons that define "arche" as "origin" or "source," rather than "one begun." For example, the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains defines "arche" as the initial cause or the origin, supporting the interpretation that Christ is the source of creation, not a part of it.

  Additionally, the author examines other instances of "arche" in the Book of Revelation. In Revelation 1:8, Christ declares, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending," which positions Him as the eternal, self-existent God. Similarly, in Revelation 21:6 and 22:13, "arche" is used to describe the eternal nature of God, reinforcing the interpretation that Christ is the originator of creation.

  The document also draws parallels between Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15-18, where Christ is described as the "firstborn of all creation" and the "beginning." The author argues that "firstborn" (prototokos) in this context signifies preeminence and authority, not a literal first creature. This interpretation aligns with the depiction of Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of the universe in Colossians 1:16-17.

  Furthermore, the author addresses the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) and early Christian writings to support his argument. In these texts, "arche" frequently denotes "source" or "origin," as in Wisdom 14:27, where idolatry is called the "beginning, cause, and end of all evil." The early Christian literature similarly uses "arche" to refer to Christ as the eternal one, reinforcing the Trinitarian interpretation.

  The author concludes by asserting that the Arian interpretation of Revelation 3:14 is flawed due to its failure to consider the broader scriptural and lexical context. He emphasizes that the doctrine of the Trinity is firmly supported by numerous biblical passages and that recognizing the triune nature of God is essential for understanding the Christian faith. The document meticulously argues that any attempt to undermine the Trinity, such as the Arian objections, fails when subjected to rigorous theological and exegetical scrutiny.

  Greek Old Testament and Early Christian Literature

  The author explores the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) and early Christian writings to further support his argument. In these texts, "arche" often means "source" or "origin." For example, Wisdom 14:27 describes idolatry as the "beginning, cause, and end of all evil," using "arche" to signify the source of evil. Similarly, Sirach 37:16 and Psalm 110:10 (LXX) use "arche" to denote the beginning or origin.

  Early Christian writers also use "arche" to affirm Christ's divinity. Ignatius, in his letter to the Smyrnaeans, refers to divisions as the "beginning of evils," and Polycarp, in his letter to the Philippians, describes the love of money as the "beginning of all troubles." These uses illustrate that "arche" can denote origin or source rather than something created.

  Conclusion

  The author concludes that the Arian interpretation of Revelation 3:14 is flawed. The broader scriptural context, the lexical meaning of "arche," and historical Christian literature all affirm that Jesus is the originator of creation, not a created being. This interpretation aligns with the doctrine of the Trinity, which asserts that Jesus is fully divine and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

  The document systematically dismantles the Arian arguments by demonstrating that their interpretation of Revelation 3:14 ignores crucial contextual and linguistic evidence. The author asserts that recognizing the triune nature of God is essential for understanding Christian theology and salvation.

  Footnotes

  Throughout the document, the author includes numerous footnotes that reference specific Bible verses, Greek lexicons, and scholarly works. These footnotes provide additional evidence and support for his arguments, ensuring that his refutation of the Arian interpretation is thorough and well-documented.