The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    1. The Continuity and Visibility of the Church

    The true Church must be continuous from the apostolic age. There is no room in Christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true Christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement. The continuity of the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy, as communities traceable back to the apostles, cannot be emphasized enough.

    Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Christ’s true congregation "disappeared from the pages of history" for a time while "false Christians" dominated religious life. In contrast, Jesus referred to the Church in Matthew 5:14 as follows: “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.” This image suggests a visible, continuously present community that bears witness to Jesus’ teachings in the world.

    If the Church had truly disappeared, as the JW claim, this would contradict Jesus’ promise that the Church would always be visible and bear witness to God’s sovereignty. The historical continuity and constant presence of the Catholic Church in the world are much more in line with this promise.

    At the same time, somewhat paradoxically, Jehovah's Witnesses assert that their beliefs have always been present throughout history, from Abel to the present day, without interruption. However, when this claim is examined from a historical perspective, significant problems arise. The Watchtower Society teaches that there have always been people who adhered to Watchtower teachings since Jesus, particularly in regards to the main doctrines. Yet, when they attempted to find specific historical groups that held similar beliefs, they could not find a single group that accepted all the important teachings.

    In the book “Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom,” John Wycliffe and William Tyndale are cited, but they believed in the Trinity and therefore could not be considered Jehovah's Witnesses. Furthermore, no group can be identified before the 1300s because at that time, except for a few exotic (and severely heretical by both Protestant and JW standards) sects, everyone’s belief system was necessarily Catholic. The historical groups mentioned by the Watchtower Society, such as the Waldenses, Cathars, Albigenses, Paulicians, and Lollards, all showed significant deviations from Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings and cannot be identified as equivalent to today's Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Based on historical data, it cannot be claimed that Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs have persisted uninterrupted over the centuries. While the Watchtower Society often tries to find similarities with earlier religious groups, these groups exhibited significant differences from the teachings of today’s Jehovah's Witnesses. Accordingly, proving historical continuity is not possible, and it appears that Jehovah's Witnesses are rather a relatively new religious movement with no direct connection to apostolic Christianity.

    2. The Jerusalem "Governing Body" and Apostolic Succession

    The JW teaching asserts that the first-century Christian congregation was under the direction of a central "governing body" operating in Jerusalem. However, biblical and historical sources indicate that such a permanent "body" did not exist and that the Jerusalem council was more of an occasional assembly rather than a continuously functioning governing body.

    The historic churches, especially the Catholic Church, ensure continuity and unity of the Church through apostolic succession. The apostles chose successors who continued to carry on the Church's teachings and governance. This continuity and hierarchical structure are what is missing in the JW argument.

    3. Apostasy and the "Wheat" Parable

    According to the JW, the Christian congregation disappeared due to apostasy and was only restored in the "last days" (around 1914). They interpret the parable of the "wheat" and the "weeds" in Matthew 13:24-30 to mean that the "wheat" ("true" Christians) disappeared for a time because of the "weeds" ("false" Christians).

    However, in the parable, Jesus does not say that the "wheat" disappears but that it grows together with the "weeds" until the harvest. This means that the true Church was always present, though mixed with false Christianity. This interpretation is much more in line with the Catholic Church's view that the Church has been continuously present and active throughout history.

    While there have always been false teachers in the Church, they never completely took over. The interpretation of the "great apostasy" does not mean that the entire Church turned away from the true faith but that some people did, while the true faith remained within the Church.

    4. Did the True Church Disappear?

    The argument that the "great apostasy" did not mean the complete disappearance of the Church but rather the emergence of false teachers touches on several important points. The New Testament indeed contains warnings about false teachers, but these texts do not state that the entire Church will turn away from the faith or that the Church will cease to exist altogether. For example, in the Acts of the Apostles, Paul warns the Ephesian elders that "savage wolves will come in among you," who will "not spare the flock" (Acts 20:29-30). However, Paul does not say that the faith will completely disappear but that they must watch over it and stand firm in true teaching.

    The Bible speaks in several places about the Church not disappearing entirely, and indeed, Christ promises that the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). The Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed, which are based on the teachings of the early Church Fathers from the first few centuries, also show that the Church continued its work after the apostles and faithfully preserved the faith.

    The "great apostasy" theory, as promoted by groups like Jehovah's Witnesses, cannot be supported by credible historical evidence. The writings of the Church Fathers, who were in direct contact with the apostles, do not indicate a mass defection that would have led to the complete cessation of the Church. These writings and historical ecclesiastical traditions all show that the Church was continuously present and preserved the core truths of the Christian faith.

    The assumption that the true Christian faith would have been completely lost for 1800 years is also problematic since it contradicts the promises of Jesus and the apostles. If the Church had disappeared, why would we trust the canon of the New Testament, which was compiled by those early Church Fathers and councils who supposedly would have departed from the faith?

    In summary, the argument that the "great apostasy" did not mean the complete disappearance of the Church appears well-founded in light of both biblical texts and historical facts. The continuity of the Church and the preservation of the apostolic tradition demonstrate that the Christian faith was not lost but continuously present and influential in the world.

    5. Apostolic Succession and the Historical Credibility of the Church

    Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Catholic Church's doctrine of apostolic succession cannot be authenticated on either historical or biblical grounds. However, numerous biblical texts and early Christian writings support the existence of apostolic succession, such as in Acts 1:15-26, where Matthias is chosen to replace Judas.

    Apostolic succession is a historical fact, supported by the writings of the Church Fathers. This succession ensures the continuity of the Church's teachings and sacraments, which trace back to the apostolic age. The Catholic Church's credibility is based on this continuity, which the JW cannot refute.

    The "great apostasy" in Christian theology is interpreted as an event expected before the appearance of the Antichrist. The idea that the Church fell into apostasy in the early centuries is untenable because Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. The claim that the Church would have fallen into apostasy and ceased to exist for centuries contradicts Jesus' promise that the Church would endure until the end of time. The Church has continuously survived and is built on apostolic traditions. Movements that claim to have re-established the Church because it supposedly ceased to exist are fundamentally based on flawed assumptions. Apostolic teachings have been preserved in the Church, providing the foundation for its continuity. While there have been instances of corruption and errors in the Church's history, these never led to the Church's complete collapse. The Church, as a living organism, has continually fought against internal and external challenges, and this is what has kept it alive. The criticisms from Protestant and other religious groups that the Church fell into apostasy earlier are often based on justifying their existence. However, such claims do not consider the Church's historical continuity and Jesus' promises.

    The "great apostasy" in Christian eschatology (the study of the end times) is therefore interpreted as an event expected just before the appearance of the Antichrist. The Antichrist is the one who will perform miracles and try to deceive people by claiming to be God and sitting in God's temple.

    • 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12: The Apostle Paul clearly states that a "falling away" will occur before the appearance of the Antichrist, which many interpret as apostasy. However, this falling away does not mean the complete dissolution of the Church or its descent into heresy but rather a significant trial that the Church must endure.
    • Jude 3: The New Testament urges believers to continually contend for the faith and defend it against false teachings. This does not proclaim the disintegration of the faith but rather its protection and reinforcement. Overall, the continuity of the Church and its adherence to the true faith are fundamental to Christianity, and no new movement or teaching can stand that denies this continuity. The Church, as a community founded by Jesus, will endure until the end of time, even as it faces various challenges in different eras.

    Therefore, the Church not only has survived throughout the centuries, but Jesus promised that it will never disappear and that there will always be valid sacraments and saints within it. The "great apostasy" will only occur at the end of times, not immediately after the death of the apostles, as some religious groups claim. There has never been an event in the Church that could be called a "great apostasy," as some modern religious movements claim. The Church has always preserved the apostolic teaching, and although there have been internal conflicts and heresies, they never completely took over.

    6. The Historical Continuity of the Church and the Problem of "Re-establishment"

    If the Church had indeed lost its true faith and then had to be re-established in the 19th century, this would imply a kind of "second founding." This, however, would contradict Jesus' promise that the Church would not be overcome by the "gates of hell" (Matthew 16:18). If the Church had completely disappeared, then Jesus' promise would not be true, which is theologically unacceptable in a Christian belief system. The theology of the Watchtower Society, which claims that the true Church disappeared and then reappeared through Russell, leads to logical inconsistencies, as it would imply that the Church had two foundings, which is incompatible with the "eternal covenant" proclaimed by Jesus.

    Jesus' promise that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18) proclaims the Church's invincibility. This promise ensures that whatever happens in the world, the Church as Christ's earthly community will survive. Throughout its history, the Church has faced many challenges but has never been broken and has never lost its sacraments or teaching authority. This continuity is due to Christ's promises and the presence of the Holy Spirit. The idea that the Church fell into apostasy in the early centuries is fundamentally contradictory to the basic teachings of the Christian faith. If this were true, it would mean that Christ and the apostles' work was not successful and that the Church could not fulfill its mission.

    Protestants often hold that the Church is not necessarily a visible institution but the invisible community of believers. In contrast, Mormons argue that the true faith was distorted and needed to be re-established. Jehovah's Witnesses combine these two concepts, but in doing so, they weaken their own position. On the one hand, they emphasize the importance of a visible organization, while on the other hand, they cannot credibly prove that their organization is in continuous connection with the first-century Christian Church.

    The question of who entrusted Russell with the re-establishment of the Church further complicates the Watchtower Society's position. If the true Church had ceased to exist, how could Russell's mandate be legitimate? Moreover, if the Watchtower Society claims that there has always been a faithful group, why is there no historical evidence or written material to support this?

    The argument that 1914 could have been a turning point after which the Church was "lost" suggests that the previous Church was indeed true. However, the Watchtower's own literature suggests that God had already rejected the Church before then. This is contradictory because if the Church was true until 1914, why did it not remain so afterward?

    7. Extremes in Biblical Interpretation

    Biblical interpretation moves between two extremes: one extreme is that the Bible is so simple that no explanation is needed (Protestantism), while the other extreme over-mystifies the text, seeing hidden messages in every little motif (Gnosticism, Watchtower).

    However, the Bible is not just a text but a profound theological work that can be interpreted on different levels. While some parts are simple and direct, others are more complex and require appropriate theological knowledge and consideration of context. Finding the balance is crucial, and both excessive simplification and over-complication can be misleading. The tradition of the Catholic Church, for example, emphasizes apostolic succession and Sacred Tradition, which help in proper interpretation.

    8. The Legitimacy and Continuity of the Church

    The legitimacy of the Roman Catholic Church was not lost due to the sins of some of its members, and apostolic succession ensures its credibility. Arguments suggesting the loss of the Church's legitimacy are more often tools of sectarian rhetoric used by various religious movements.

    The Church's legitimacy does not depend on the moral failings of certain members but on apostolic succession and God's promise. The Church was founded by Jesus Christ, who promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). Despite the many difficulties and challenges in church history, the Church has maintained this continuity and fidelity to Christ's teachings.

    The "gates of hell" refer to the power of evil, the strength of the devil, and according to Jesus' promise, this power will never overcome the Church. The Church has faced various challenges over time, but according to Jesus' promise, it will always survive and never lose its strength. The phrase also implies that the Church will never be destroyed, there will always be valid sacraments, and there will always be saints within it. False teachings can never take over the Church. The Church is infallible, meaning that false teachings cannot gain dominion within it. According to the apostles' prophecies, there will always be false teachers, but they will never completely take over the Church. The Church is indefectible, meaning it will never completely disappear or cease to exist.

    9. Ockham's Razor and Theological Interpretation

    The preference for simple and reasonable explanations is important in theological interpretation as well, and it is not necessary to create complex conspiracy theories that suggest the devil has blinded everyone.

    Theological interpretation indeed requires reasonableness and simplicity, but simplicity should not equate to superficiality. The deep understanding of theological issues is often complex and requires a thorough knowledge of Scripture and tradition. The interpretation of the Catholic Church, for example, is based on the continuity of apostolic teachings and the traditions of the Church Fathers, providing a reliable and consistent framework for interpretation.

    10. The Church's Historical Role and the Issue of Heresy

    Heresies and new denominations often present themselves as defenders of "truth" while in reality opposing the historical and theological continuity of the Catholic Church.

    Heresies have always challenged the teachings of the Church, but the continuity of the Church and the consistency of its teachings prove its credibility. The Church has never ceased to proclaim the truth received from Christ, and through apostolic succession, it has preserved this tradition. The legitimacy of the Church is based on apostolic foundation and the consistently preserved teaching continuity over the centuries, which cannot be questioned by those trying to create new theologies.

    11. The Second Vatican Council and the current State of the Church

    Regarding the Second Vatican Council, while some directions may seem theologically harmful, this does not mean that the Church as a whole has fallen into heresy. The Church has never lost its apostolicity and continuity, even when internal problems and corruption occasionally arose. The challenges of modern times, such as the LGBTQ+ issue, require new approaches. Although I am critical of how Pope Francis handles this issue, he has not formally deviated from Catholic teachings and has not fallen into heresy. The Church can be described as a living organism that is constantly struggling with internal and external challenges. Despite the errors and corruption, the Church continues to exist because, according to God's promise, the "gates of hell" will not prevail against it.

    12. Conclusion

    The JW view that the true Church "disappeared" and was only "restored in the last days" (around 1914) contradicts Jesus' promise of the Church's continuous presence. The historical and theological continuity of the Church, especially in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, is a strong argument that Christ's Church has been continuously present throughout history, even amidst difficulties and apostasy. Apostolic succession and hierarchical structure have ensured that the Church has always followed Christ's teachings and remained faithful to apostolic tradition. The claim that Christianity already experienced the great apostasy is theologically and historically unfounded. The Church has always preserved the faith handed down by the apostles and protected by Christ's promises. Views that consider the "great apostasy" to have already occurred do not take into account the continuity of the Church and the clear teachings of Scripture.

  • aqwsed12345
  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    So, it sounds like you believe that the Catholic Church was started by Jesus and traces back to the apostles and gave the world the Bible (as well as other things)

    yes?

    ttwsyf

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @TTWSYF

    I do, but the issue is simply a question of historical continuity.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    I don’t think you can prove papal successions historically speaking beyond the early 9th or 10th century, the historical record for that is simply lost although you can prove the Catholic Church existed very early on (St. Ignacius - 110AD) which was writing to the congregation in Smyrna, the same referenced around the same time by Paul and John of Patmos.

    I agree with most of your claims although you must clarify what would make for a JW signature teaching in its own historic record. We all know the cross, trinity and other staple Christian teachings were commonly discussed by writers in the first Zion’s Watch Tower and its predecessor publications which JWs claim were their start, yes they eventually rejected those, but they didn’t come out of the gate with them. Russell clearly states that Jesus should be worshipped, not doing so would have made him a heretic in both the Millerite and Presbyterian movements, Presbyterians believe in the Catholic Church although they believe the Roman Catholic Church was corrupted. Although we know the Russelite movement went through its own schisms, only one branch resolving into WTBTS/JW, JW themselves would not admit to the true establishment being by Rutherford after another schism.

    So in short, what is the signature teaching of JWs that would be taught by Russell and accepted by modern JW - because there are not many if any teachings that currently overlap and have remained constant.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Anony Mous

    The assertion that papal succession can't be historically proven beyond the 9th or 10th century isn't entirely accurate. While it is true that the records from the early church are not as comprehensive as modern documentation, significant historical evidence supports the continuity of papal succession from the early church. The writings of the early Church Fathers, councils, and even non-Christian sources provide a substantial record of the papacy's existence and succession.

    While the exact early chronology is debated by some, the tradition of an unbroken line of succession from St. Peter is a core belief of the Catholic Church, supported by early Christian writings and the consistent teaching of the Church Fathers. The recognition of early popes as saints and martyrs, despite uncertainties about precise dates, underscores the early Church’s acknowledgment of their spiritual authority and leadership. Although some earlier sources might have legendary elements as well, much of it is based on historical data. Additionally, letters, decrees, and church synods from various periods corroborate the continuous leadership of the bishops of Rome. Even if the records from the earliest centuries are fragmentary, the church's self-understanding and external recognition as a hierarchical institution centered on the papacy is well-documented and traceable much beyond the 9th or 10th century.

    The Scriptures and early Church writings clearly indicate that St. Peter spent his final years in Rome, where he carried out his apostolic mission. This claim is supported by passages in the New Testament, such as in the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 12:17), which attest to Peter’s presence in Rome. The writings of the early Church Fathers also support the apostolic succession of the bishops of Rome. St. Ignatius and St. Irenaeus, among others, highlight the authority and primacy of the Roman Church over other Christian communities, which is seen as strong evidence of apostolic succession. From the earliest times, the Bishops of Rome exercised primacy within the Church as the vicars of Christ. For instance, Pope Clement’s intervention in the disputes of the Corinthian Church and Pope Victor’s role in the debate over the date of Easter show that the Bishop of Rome was regarded as the final arbiter. The apostolic succession and papal authority developed over time as the Church faced new challenges. This development, however, does not undermine the essence of papal primacy; rather, it shows the unfolding of what Christ instituted in Peter.

    It's true that Russell's early teachings diverged significantly from what later became orthodox JW doctrine, particularly after Rutherford's leadership. However, some core elements that have persisted include:

    • Rejection of Traditional Christian Doctrines: Even though Russell initially accepted the Trinity and the cross, he and his followers soon began to reject traditional Christian doctrines, a trend that continued and solidified under Rutherford.
    • Expectation of an Imminent End Times: Russell's teachings were heavily focused on eschatology and the belief that Christ's invisible presence began in 1874 and that the end of the world was imminent. This focus on the end times, while the dates and interpretations have shifted, remains a key feature of JW theology.

    That said, it's important to recognize that while certain doctrinal shifts occurred, especially under Rutherford, the movement's identity and direction were very much shaped by Russell's initial ideas and teachings. The process of doctrinal evolution does not negate the continuity of certain core themes, even if specifics have changed.

    Russell initially did believe in honoring Jesus, which was consistent with some mainstream Protestant views of the time. However, over time, Russell and his followers moved away from orthodox Trinitarianism, eventually leading to a complete rejection of the worship of Jesus as God under Rutherford.

  • vienne
    vienne

    There is so much "fake history" in the original post that it is startling. but not surprising. the op is mentally and historically blind.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @aqswed: I was talking about documented papal succession and transfer of power/appointments from bishop to bishop, the documents go back far but cannot be definitively established although yes, the Roman Catholic Church can trace documented existence, there are other churches (eg Ethiopian) claim the same that have slightly stronger extant evidence although also not unbroken.

    As far as the Russelite movement vs Jehovah’s Witness claim to apostolic succession, the question was what signature would allow us to trace it in history. JWs cannot establish any teaching that would make it unique enough to be traced, would there be a sect that held the end to come in 1914, rejected the cross and divinity of Christ, that would be a signature. I’m looking for a small group like the Freemasons, Knights Templar or others that have sporadically popped up in history and align with modern JW teachings. Russell himself held to the Christian faith and the first and second schism has existing groups that still hold to the cross and the divinity of Christ, the third schism has a number of JW-like groups that also reject the divinity of Christ and the cross. So JWs need, if they want to claim apostolic succession to trace their lineage, first of all reject Russell as they did his teachings. Then we can find others (Mormons etc) that would likewise be JW-adjacent over time, but you can’t go much further than early 1800s.

  • vienne
    vienne

    The issue isn't an "unbroken history," but continuity of doctrine from the first century. that can't be established for the Roman church.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    This claim is supported by passages in the New Testament, such as in the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 12:17), which attest to Peter’s presence in Rome.

    No it doesn't.

    "17 Peter motioned with his hand for them to be quiet and described how the Lord had brought him out of prison. “Tell James and the other brothers and sisters about this,” he said, and then he left for another place."

    It's actually the type of lack of specificity that identifies fiction writing. Acts was written by a proto-Orthodox church around 150-170CE with the intention of justifying its doctrinal primacy over the many rival sects that existed by then. The Roman Catholic Church many years later continued this ruse of continuity with extensive history revisionism and mythmaking.

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