Posts by aqwsed12345

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat

While it’s true that the New Testament shows Jesus in a role of submission to God the Father, this does not necessarily imply that Jesus is ontologically inferior to God. The distinction between Jesus' humanity and divinity is essential to understanding these passages. For example:

Revelation 1:1 shows that Jesus, in His role as the mediator between God and humanity, receives knowledge from God. This aligns with His role in the economy of salvation, not with His divine nature.
Matthew 28:18 indicates that all authority is given to Jesus in His resurrected, glorified state as the God-man. This does not imply that Jesus was without authority before His resurrection but rather that His authority is now exercised in a new, glorified way.
John 6:57 and John 14:28 highlight the unique relationship between the Father and the Son within the Trinity. When Jesus says, "The Father is greater than I," He refers to His incarnate state, where He voluntarily assumed a position of humility (Philippians 2:5-8). This statement reflects His functional subordination during His earthly ministry, not an ontological subordination within the Godhead.

You mention that ontology is "the language of philosophy and not the Bible", but theological terms help us clarify and defend the truths found in Scripture. The Church, especially at the Council of Nicaea, used philosophical language to express biblical truths accurately and unambiguously. The term "homoousios" (of the same substance) was used to affirm that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, meaning that they share the same divine essence. while the Bible may not explicitly use the term "ontology," it still addresses and reveals essential truths about the nature of God and His relationship with His Son, Jesus Christ. Theology, the study of the nature of God, often intersects with philosophy, and ontology is a tool that helps us articulate and understand these biblical truths.

The idea that Jesus is ontologically less than God comes from misunderstandings and misinterpretations that were corrected by the early Church. The Arian controversy, for example, argued that the Son was a created being and thus subordinate to the Father. This view was rejected at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, where the Church affirmed that the Son is co-eternal and consubstantial with the Father.

The doctrines developed by the Church were not influenced by pagan philosophy but were responses to heresies that tried to undermine the true nature of Christ as revealed in Scripture. The early Church Fathers and Councils were committed to preserving the apostolic faith as it was handed down, using philosophical language to protect the integrity of the faith against distortions.

The New Testament affirms both the full divinity and full humanity of Jesus. In His humanity, Jesus can be seen in a role of subordination to the Father. However, in His divinity, Jesus is fully equal with the Father. The distinction between Jesus’ two natures (divine and human) is crucial. The subordination you see in the New Testament pertains to His human nature and His role in salvation history, not to His divine nature.

The New Testament does not teach that Jesus is ontologically less than God. The passages you’ve cited refer to His role within the economy of salvation, where He voluntarily submitted Himself in His humanity. However, in His divine nature, Jesus is fully God, co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial with the Father. This is the consistent teaching of the early Church, affirmed in the face of heresies that sought to diminish Christ's divine status. Understanding these distinctions is crucial to fully grasping the mystery of the Trinity as revealed in Scripture and upheld by the historic Christian faith.

To address the argument presented by Emma Wasserman, it's important to clarify the context and interpretation of Philippians 2:6 and to explore the broader theological implications within Christian doctrine. Philippians 2:6-11 is one of the most significant Christological passages in the New Testament, often referred to as the "Christ Hymn." In this passage, Paul describes Jesus Christ’s humility and exaltation. The key phrase in question, "being in the form of God," is often debated, particularly regarding its implications for understanding Christ’s divinity.

Wasserman suggests that "being in the form of God" could imply that Christ was "a lesser divine being", perhaps part of a heavenly council, rather than being fully equal with God. The word "morphe" does not merely suggest outward appearance but refers to the essential nature or condition of something. Thus, when Paul says Christ was in the "form of God," he is indicating that Christ possesses the very nature of God, not merely a superficial likeness. The phrase "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" does not imply that Christ lacked equality with God or sought to attain it illegitimately. Rather, it emphasizes that Christ, already possessing divine equality, did not cling to His status but willingly humbled Himself for the sake of humanity. This humility and self-emptying (kenosis) is not about rejecting divinity but about voluntarily setting aside the privileges of divinity to fully embrace humanity.

In the New Testament, the concept of "lesser divine beings" does not align with the developed Jewish monotheism of the Second Temple period. By this time, Jewish thought had firmly established Yahweh as the one and only God, ruling out any notion of other "gods" in the divine sense that was present in earlier, more henotheistic or polytheistic contexts.

During the Second Temple period, Jewish monotheism had become strictly defined. The use of the term "Elohim" or "Theos" was reserved exclusively for Yahweh, the one true God. This development is evident in the way the Septuagint (LXX) translators chose to render certain Hebrew terms into Greek. For instance, in Psalm 8:5, where the Hebrew text uses "elohim," the LXX translates this as "angels" (aggeloi), not "gods" (theoi), reflecting a clear monotheistic interpretation.

In the New Testament, the authors operate within this monotheistic framework. Jesus is identified as "Theos" (God) in a way that is unique and distinct from how "Elohim" or "Theos" might have been applied metaphorically or analogically in the Old Testament. The application of the term "Theos" to Jesus, as in John 1:1, is not a trivial designation but a profound theological statement about His nature as fully divine and fully God.

When the New Testament writers use the term "Theos" to refer to Jesus, they are not merely assigning Him a status as a lesser deity or a member of a divine council. Instead, they are making a definitive statement about His identity as the incarnate Word of God, who shares in the very essence and nature of God. The use of "Theos" to describe Jesus is intentional and significant. The New Testament writers had other terms at their disposal, such as "theios" (divine, godlike), "hemitheos" (demigod), or "hero," but they chose "Theos" to convey the full divinity of Christ. This choice reflects a recognition that Jesus is not merely a powerful spiritual being but fully God, co-equal with the Father.

By using "Theos," the New Testament authors avoided the confusion that might arise from using terms associated with lesser deities or mythological beings. In classical Greek, "Theos" referred to the major gods of the pantheon, whereas terms like "hemitheos" or "theios" could imply a being of lesser status. The deliberate use of "Theos" for Jesus serves to affirm His unique and supreme divinity.

The New Testament does not simply carry over the flexible use of "Elohim" from the Old Testament. Instead, it reflects the mature monotheism of Second Temple Judaism, where only Yahweh is God, and any other use of divine titles is metaphorical or honorific, not ontological.

The New Testament's use of "Theos" for Jesus must be understood in light of this evolved monotheism. While the Old Testament might apply "Elohim" to judges, angels, or even human leaders in a metaphorical sense, the New Testament reserves "Theos" for God alone, and when applied to Jesus, it underscores His divine nature.

Jehovah's Witnesses and similar groups often attempt to bridge the gap between Old Testament references to "gods" (elohim) and New Testament Christology by skipping over the significant theological developments that occurred between these periods.

By retroactively applying First Temple period terminology to New Testament theology, one risks imposing an outdated framework onto a more developed monotheistic understanding. The New Testament's use of "Theos" for Jesus is not a mere continuation of Old Testament metaphorical usage but a declaration of His divine identity within a monotheistic context.

The New Testament's portrayal of Jesus as "Theos" is not about assigning Him the status of a lesser divine being but about affirming His full divinity within a strict monotheistic framework. The term "Theos" is used deliberately and with deep theological significance, reflecting the belief that Jesus is one with the Father in essence and nature. Attempts to interpret Jesus as "a lesser god" based on earlier Old Testament language overlook the significant theological developments that shaped the New Testament's understanding of God and Christ.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat

Why use ChatGPT when I have my own notes?

Your response highlights a common misunderstanding of the nature of Jesus Christ and the relationship between His divinity and humanity. When the New Testament speaks of Jesus being "exalted" or given "all power," it’s essential to understand that all these statements refer to His incarnate and glorified human nature, not to His divine nature. The distinction between Jesus' divine and human natures is central to Christian theology, particularly in the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union, which teaches that Jesus is fully God and fully man.

Philippians 2:6-7 emphasizes that Jesus, in His divine nature, was equal with God but chose to humble Himself by taking on human nature. The exaltation mentioned in Philippians 2:9 refers to the glorification of His humanity after completing His redemptive work, not a change in His divine status. This refers to the glorification of Jesus' humanity. The notion of exaltation relates to His human nature, which was humbled during His earthly life and now glorified. As God, Jesus is already in the highest possible position; He cannot be “exalted” further in His divine nature. This exaltation pertains to His human nature, which now shares in the divine glory in a new and public way after His resurrection and ascension.

By the way the NWT translates Philippians 2:9 as "God exalted him to a higher position," whereas the original Greek implies an extreme exaltation ("hyper-exalted") above all else, which is not adequately captured by the NWT's phrasing. Additionally, the NWT introduces the word "other" into the phrase "above every other name," which is not present in the original text, further diluting the sense of Christ's absolute supremacy. The original Greek text of Philippians 2:9 uses the term "hyperypsōsen," meaning "to exalt above all" or "to the highest degree," which reflects the ultimate glorification of Christ's human nature following His humility and death. The phrase "the Name above every name" signifies that Christ's name is supreme, without comparison to others. The NWT's translation appears to reflect Jehovah's Witnesses' theological stance that Jesus is a created being, rather than affirming His divine nature as fully equal with God.

Matthew 28:18, where Jesus says, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me," reflects the authority He exercises as the God-man, in His incarnate state, after His resurrection. It does not imply that He lacked this authority as God but that His humanity was now glorified, and His role as the Mediator was fully realized. This phrase refers to Jesus’ role in His human nature after the resurrection. As God, Jesus always possessed all power. The “giving” of power refers to His mission and role as the incarnate Son, now fully recognized and acknowledged in His glorified state. This does not imply inferiority in His divine nature but rather fulfills His role in salvation history.

The idea that Jesus is “less than God” because He received power or was exalted is a misunderstanding of the relationship between His divine and human natures.

As God: Jesus is eternally omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. His divine nature did not change or diminish when He became incarnate. As John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jesus, as the Word, is fully God, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father.

As Man: Jesus, in His human nature, humbled Himself and took on the limitations of humanity (Philippians 2:7). This humility and subsequent exaltation pertain to His human nature, not to His divine nature. The exaltation after His resurrection is the glorification of His humanity, not a promotion to divinity. The power and authority He exercises post-resurrection are now manifest in His glorified human nature, acting as the God-man, the mediator between God and humanity.

The New Testament does not teach that the Son, the divine Logos is ontologally less than God the Father. Rather, it affirms both His full divinity and His real humanity. The statements about Jesus receiving power or being exalted are to be understood in the context of His incarnate mission and the glorification of His humanity. These do not detract from His divinity but rather reveal the mystery of the Incarnation—God becoming man to redeem humanity.

Thus, the claims made by Jehovah’s Witnesses misinterpret the nature of Jesus and the biblical teaching on His divinity. The exaltation and receiving of power refer to His human nature and role as the Mediator, not a change in His divine status. Jesus, as the God-man, is fully divine and fully human, co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit in the eternal Trinity.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat

Your assertion that Jesus was "promoted" after His resurrection, as mentioned in Philippians 2:9-11 and Matthew 28:18, reflects a common misunderstanding of the nature of Christ as both fully God and fully man. Let's take a closer look at these passages and how they fit within the broader context of Christian theology.

In Philippians 2:9-11, Paul writes that "God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name that is above every name." This passage indeed speaks of an exaltation, but it's essential to understand the nature of this exaltation.

The passage describes a movement from Jesus' voluntary humility to His exaltation. Jesus, who "being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (Philippians 2:6), chose to humble Himself by taking on human nature and becoming obedient to death on a cross. This humility does not mean that He ceased to be God or that He was less than God. Instead, it demonstrates His willingness to relinquish His divine privileges temporarily for the sake of humanity's redemption.

The "exaltation" spoken of here refers to Jesus' human nature being glorified. As the Catechism of St. Pius X explains, "As God, He was equal to His Father in glory," but "as man, He has been raised above all the Angels and Saints, and constituted Lord of all things." This exaltation does not imply that Jesus became more divine or that He was somehow less than God before; rather, it signifies the glorification of His humanity and the public acknowledgment of His lordship over all creation.

In Matthew 28:18, Jesus declares, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." This statement is often misunderstood as implying that Jesus only received divine authority after His resurrection. However, a closer examination reveals a deeper truth.

As God, Jesus already possessed all authority inherently. What Matthew 28:18 emphasizes is that Jesus, in His incarnate and now glorified human nature, exercises this authority. The "giving" of authority here is understood within the context of His role as the Mediator between God and humanity. Jesus' authority is now fully manifested and exercised in His resurrected and glorified state, where He reigns as the God-man over all creation.

The notion of "giving" in this context does not imply that Jesus was without authority before, but rather that His authority is now visibly recognized and acknowledged following His redemptive work. This authority is exercised by Jesus in His role as the incarnate Son, who, after accomplishing salvation, is rightfully acknowledged by all creation.

Your argument hinges on the idea that it would be "nonsense to talk about God being promoted to a superior position because God is supreme." This is true—God, in His divine nature, cannot be promoted. However, this does not apply to Jesus in His incarnate form.

The doctrine of the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union (the union of Jesus' divine and human natures) affirm that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. His divine nature is eternal, unchanging, and all-powerful. His human nature, however, underwent the process of humiliation and exaltation as part of God's redemptive plan.

When Scripture speaks of Jesus being exalted or given authority, it refers to His human nature. As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "The humanity of Christ is a creature, it is not God." His exaltation is not a promotion in His divine nature, but a glorification of His human nature, reflecting the acknowledgment of His completed work of salvation.

You also mention that Jesus is "distinct and subject to almighty God," which is true in terms of His incarnate mission. The Son, in His role as the incarnate Word, willingly submits to the Father’s will, as part of the divine economy of salvation.

The subordination of the Son to the Father during His earthly ministry is a matter of economic order, not of ontological inferiority. Within the Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal. The submission of the Son to the Father pertains to His role in the economy of salvation, where He operates in perfect obedience as the incarnate Son, but this in no way diminishes His divine status.

Hebrews 1:8-9, which you referenced, highlights this distinction: Jesus is addressed as "God," and His throne is described as "forever and ever." This passage clearly attributes divinity to Jesus, while also acknowledging His role within the Trinity.

Hence the passages in Philippians 2 and Matthew 28 do not undermine the divinity of Christ; rather, they highlight the glorification of His human nature and His role in the divine plan of salvation. Jesus' exaltation is not about Him becoming God or receiving divinity, but about the acknowledgment of His work and the glorification of His human nature. The New Testament consistently affirms both the full divinity and full humanity of Jesus, upholding the mystery of the Trinity and the unique role of Jesus as the God-man.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat

JWs interpret Hebrews 1:4 as suggesting that Jesus "became" superior to the angels after being exalted by God. However, the phrase "has become" (Greek: genomenos) in this context does not imply a change in nature from inferior to superior. Rather, it refers to the exaltation and recognition of Jesus' inherent superiority following His resurrection and ascension. Hebrews 1:4 does not mean that Jesus was once inferior and later promoted. Instead, it emphasizes that Jesus, in His exaltation, was declared superior to the angels because of His divine sonship. His superiority is tied to His identity as the eternal Son of God, not as a result of promotion.

The passage also highlights that Jesus' superiority is connected to the "name" He inherited, which is tied to His identity as the Son of God. The "name" in Jewish thought often represents the very nature or essence of a person. Therefore, the name Jesus inherited refers to His divine identity, not a change in status.

The JW interpretation suggests that Jesus is "firstborn" in Hebrews 1:6 in the sense of being the first created being, and therefore superior to the angels. However, the term "firstborn" (Greek: prototokos) in Hebrews 1:6 does not refer to Jesus as a created being but to His preeminence in rank.

In biblical usage, "firstborn" often denotes rank or position rather than temporal origin. For example, in Psalm 89:27, David is called the "firstborn," the highest of the kings of the earth, even though he was not the first king or the firstborn in his family. Similarly, Jesus is called "firstborn" to signify His supreme authority over all creation.

Hebrews 1:6 indicates that the angels are commanded to worship Jesus. This is significant because worship is reserved for God alone (Matthew 4:10). The fact that God commands the angels to worship Jesus points to His divine status, not merely a high rank among created beings. This aligns with the broader biblical teaching that Jesus is divine and worthy of worship (e.g., Philippians 2:10-11).

The argument that Jesus is a "reflection" of God's glory and distinct from God, yet superior to creation, is only partially correct. The term "reflection" (Greek: apaugasma) and "exact imprint" (Greek: charakter) are meant to convey that Jesus is the perfect expression of God’s nature. Hebrews 1:3 describes Jesus as the "exact imprint of [God’s] nature," meaning that He shares fully in the divine essence. The phrase "exact imprint" indicates that Jesus is the perfect and complete representation of God, possessing the same divine nature. This is not to suggest that He is a mere reflection in the sense of being lesser, but that He is fully divine, embodying the very nature of God. While Jesus is distinct from the Father in terms of personhood (as the Son), He is not distinct in essence. The distinction lies within the Persons of the Trinity, not in the nature of divinity. The Son, like the Father, is fully God.

Hebrews 1:8 directly addresses the Son as "God," quoting Psalm 45:6-7. The JW interpretation acknowledges Jesus’ divinity but still sees Him as subordinate and created. The passage in Hebrews 1:8 explicitly calls the Son "God" (Theos in Greek). This is a clear affirmation of His divine nature. The fact that the Son is addressed as "God" indicates that He shares the same divine essence as the Father. The subsequent verse (Hebrews 1:9) mentions that Jesus, while divine, has a God. This reflects the Trinitarian understanding that, within the Godhead, there is a relational order where the Son submits to the Father. However, this submission is in the context of His role in the economy of salvation, not a statement of His essence or nature. The Son’s subordination is functional, not ontological.

The argument that the author of Hebrews should have explicitly stated that Jesus is part of a Trinity if that was the belief is flawed. The doctrine of the Trinity is not stated as a simple proposition in the Bible, but it is derived from the totality of Scripture. Hebrews, like other New Testament books, presents Jesus as fully divine, eternal, and worthy of worship—attributes that align with the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Trinity doctrine arises from the need to account for the full divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit while maintaining monotheism. Hebrews supports this by affirming Jesus’ divine nature, His role as Creator, His eternal Sonship, and His worthiness of worship—attributes that cannot be ascribed to any created being, no matter how exalted. Thus, the author of Hebrews contributes to the scriptural foundation for the Trinity by portraying Jesus as fully God, distinct in person from the Father, yet one in essence with Him.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

The assertion that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is an angel, specifically Michael the Archangel, is a core element of their theology. However, this belief is problematic when examined through the broader context of Christian theology and Scripture. Here's a detailed refutation of this perspective: The New Testament explicitly distinguishes Jesus from angels and presents Him as superior to them. The letter to the Hebrews is particularly clear on this point:

Hebrews 1:3-5: "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word... So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father'?"

These verses demonstrate that Jesus holds a unique position as the Son of God, distinct from and superior to all angels. The rhetorical question in verse 5 emphasizes that no angel, including Michael, has ever been called the Son of God in the way that Jesus is. The Bible mentions Michael the Archangel in a few places, but these references never suggest that he is divine or equivalent to Jesus:

Jude 1:9: "But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’"

This verse shows that Michael, despite his high rank, defers judgment to the Lord, indicating that he is not himself the Lord. This is a clear indication of Michael's status as a created being, distinct from the divine authority of Jesus.

Daniel 10:13, 21: Michael is referred to as "one of the chief princes" and as the protector of Israel. These titles do not suggest that Michael is unique in his authority or divine in nature; rather, they indicate that he is one among other angelic leaders.

The New Testament consistently portrays Jesus as more than an angel. He is the incarnate Word of God, who existed from the beginning and through whom all things were created:

John 1:1-3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

This passage identifies Jesus as the Word (Logos), who is not only with God but is God. This directly contradicts the idea that Jesus is merely an angel, as angels are created beings, whereas Jesus is the uncreated Creator.

Colossians 1:16-17: "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

These verses reaffirm that Jesus is the agent of creation, including the creation of all angels. This places Him in a category entirely separate from that of angels, including Michael. Jehovah’s Witnesses’ identification of Jesus with Michael the Archangel significantly diminishes the Christian understanding of Christ's divinity. If Jesus is merely an archangel, this contradicts the historic Christian doctrine of the true deity of the Son. Moreover, the idea that Jesus could be both the Creator of all things and a created being (an archangel) presents a theological contradiction. Christian theology, based on Scripture, holds that Jesus is eternally begotten of the Father, not created, and is of the same essence as God.

It is worth noting that Jehovah's Witnesses rarely refer to Jesus as simply "an angel," possibly because doing so would make it clear that their view significantly lowers the status of Jesus compared to mainstream Christian belief. The reluctance to frequently use this term might reflect an awareness that identifying Jesus as an angel could alienate those who hold to the biblical teaching of Jesus’ divinity.

The belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel is not supported by Scripture when examined in its full context. The Bible consistently presents Jesus as superior to angels, divine, and one with God the Father, making it theologically unsound to reduce Him to the status of an archangel. The view that Jesus is an angel undermines key Christian doctrines about His divine nature and unique role in salvation. Therefore, the identification of Jesus with Michael the Archangel should be rejected as inconsistent with biblical revelation.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

aqwsed12345

@Rattigan350

From the perspective of Jehovah’s Witnesses, there’s roughly an 1800-year historical gap, as they exclusively focus on the "first-century" Christianity, making entirely arbitrary claims about it. This implies that they believe Christianity had essentially "collapsed" by the early 2nd century. It's no surprise they say this because even the earliest extra-biblical external and proto-orthodox sources consistently depict a type of Christianity that is uncomfortably far removed from what the Watchtower claims about the faith and religious life of early Christianity, yet very close to what Catholicism represents. Thus, they consider second-century Christianity to be completely degenerate and "apostate." Cf. No true Scotsman.

The question then arises: where exactly does the Bible mention this gap? Why doesn’t it contain instructions on what to do if you happen to live during this 1900-year period, and similar concerns?

Additionally, another thought just came to mind. According to the Watchtower, the Book of Revelation was written in 96 AD. In chapters 2 and 3, John receives instructions from Christ to write seven letters to seven churches in Asia Minor. Why didn’t Jesus inform them in these letters not to bother much, since they only had four years left before the church would collapse for 1800 years? Why does He encourage them in various ways when, in a few years, they would have to shut everything down anyway? Moreover, according to the Watchtower, as long as John was alive, the wicked "apostates" couldn’t take control (afterwards, they supposedly did almost immediately, and no one noticed that the Bible and the doctrinal system had been altered). How did John manage to prevent this from happening across the entire Roman Empire from the island of Patmos, and how did he attend the supposed (and continuously meeting) "Governing Body" in Jerusalem, and who did they appoint when all the other apostles had been dead for decades?

The parable of the wheat and the weeds (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43) is indeed a powerful metaphor used by Jesus to describe the growth of His kingdom and the opposition it would face. However, it's crucial to understand that this parable doesn't suggest a complete "extinction" of the true Church at any point. Jesus is not suggesting that the true Church would "disappear" or be overrun entirely by false Christians. Instead, the parable teaches that within the world (and even within the visible Church), there would be both genuine believers (wheat) and false believers (weeds) until the end of the age. It shows that true believers ("wheat") and false believers or adversaries ("weeds") would coexist within the visible Church until the end of time when God will separate them.

Jesus’ explanation of the parable (Matthew 13:36-43) emphasizes that the separation of the wheat and the weeds will occur at the final judgment, not that the true Church would "vanish" and later "reappear". The true Church, represented by the wheat, remains present even if it is mixed with weeds. This implies continuity, not a cessation of the true faith.

Nowhere in the parable does Jesus imply that the wheat ("true" Christians) would "disappear" or be completely "overrun" by weeds ("false" Christians). The wheat and the weeds grow together until the final judgment (the harvest), which indicates that the true Church has always existed alongside false teachings and impostors but has never ceased to exist.

Christianity, by its very nature, is based on the continuity of the apostolic teaching. Jesus promised that the gates of Hades would not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18). This promise implies a continuous presence and preservation of the Church throughout history, without interruption.

One of the key teachings of Christianity is apostolic succession, the belief that the authority given to the apostles by Christ has been handed down through successive generations of bishops and Church leaders. This chain of succession is seen as vital for preserving the integrity and teachings of the Church. Historic churches such as the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches, and some Protestant denominations maintain this concept. This succession is evidence of continuity, which means that true Christianity did not disappear, even amid the rise of heresies or corruptions.

The idea that the true Church practically ceased to exist for centuries and was only “revived” by Charles Taze Russell is not consistent with historical Christianity or Jesus' promises. From the time of the apostles, there has been an unbroken line of Christian teaching, even through periods of difficulty and corruption within the Church. The early Church fathers, councils, and creeds all testify to the ongoing life and doctrinal consistency of the Church.

For Christianity to be genuine, it must be continuous, handed down from generation to generation. The idea of a “great apostasy” that entirely wiped out true Christianity until the 19th century when Charles Taze Russell (the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses) revived it is problematic. It would mean that for almost two millennia, Jesus’ promise in Matthew 16:18—that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"—was broken. Yet, Jesus promised that He would be with His Church always (Matthew 28:20), and the Holy Spirit would guide it into all truth (John 16:13).

Historical records show that despite challenges and internal conflicts, the Christian Church maintained the apostolic faith across the centuries. The early Church faced numerous heresies, but it consistently defined and defended the true faith through councils, writings, and the witness of the saints. This continuous presence refutes the idea that “true” Christianity was “lost” and only “rediscovered” in the end of the 19th century.

Throughout history, the Church has indeed faced challenges, false teachings, and divisions (heresies, schisms, etc.), but at no point did the Church cease to exist. From the early councils, such as Nicaea in 325 AD, to later movements, Christians have continually gathered in unity under the teachings of the apostles, defending orthodoxy against heresies like Arianism, Nestorianism, and Gnosticism. This shows the Church's resilience and continuity.

Early Christian writings from the Church Fathers, such as Augustine, Athanasius, and Irenaeus, provide an unbroken line of theological teaching that reflects the beliefs of the apostles. These writings contradict the claim that "true" Christianity "disappeared" and was only "revived" in the 19th century. These theologians and their works represent the continuous presence of true Christianity, long before any claim of a “great apostasy.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that directly after the apostles' death, Christianity fell into “apostasy” and did not recover until Charles Taze Russell "rediscovered" “true” Christianity in the 19th century. This view contradicts Jesus’ promise that He would be with His Church always (Matthew 28:20) and that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church into all truth (John 16:13).

There is no historical evidence that Christianity completely fell into "apostasy" or that Russell’s interpretation represents the recovery of "original" Christianity. Jehovah’s Witnesses rely on their interpretation of history and Scripture, but this interpretation is not supported by the continuous witness of the Church throughout history.

The idea that Christianity needed to be "restored" centuries later implies that God allowed His Church to be completely corrupted for almost 2,000 years, which contradicts the scriptural promise of divine protection and guidance. Restorationist movements like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, and others each claim they are the true restoration, but they diverge significantly in theology, further weakening their claims.

Charles Taze Russell and his followers did not “restore” original Christianity; rather, they introduced new interpretations that diverged from historic Christian teachings. Russell’s theology, including his rejection of the Trinity, the nature of Christ, and the interpretation of the end times, represented a significant departure from the teachings of the early Church and the broader Christian tradition.

The claim that Russell’s movement made the “wheat” discernible from the “weeds” is based on a subjective interpretation that lacks historical support. The Christian Church had always recognized true believers within its fold, despite the presence of false teachings or unfaithful members. The Church’s ability to preserve core doctrines through ecumenical councils and creeds shows that it remained faithful to the apostolic teaching.

Claiming that Jesus' parable of the wheat and weeds justifies a belief in the “great apostasy” and “restoration” is a selective interpretation. The Church has historically interpreted this parable to mean that good and evil will coexist within the visible Church until the final judgment, not that true Christianity would disappear.

The idea of a total "apostasy" followed by a restoration through Charles Taze Russell lacks both scriptural and historical support. The continuous existence of the Church, despite challenges, heresies, and divisions, affirms Jesus’ promise that His Church would endure. The parable of the wheat and weeds demonstrates that true believers and false teachers would coexist within the Church (cf. "corpus permixtum"), not that the true Church would vanish. True Christianity has been preserved and handed down from the apostolic age to the present through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the faithful transmission of doctrine.

The notion that the true Church disappeared and was later restored by Charles Taze Russell contradicts the teachings of Jesus and the historical continuity of the Christian faith. The parable in Matthew 13 does not suggest a disappearance of the true Church but rather illustrates that the true believers would always be present, even amid false teachings. The Christian Church has existed continuously since the time of the apostles, preserving the core truths of the faith without interruption.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

aqwsed12345

The Catholic Church and the Accusation of "Pagan Origin" Practices

One of the most common accusations leveled against the Catholic Church, particularly by Protestant fundamentalist circles, is that Catholicism employs "pagan" or "pagan-origin" practices, thereby violating the teachings of Scripture. To support these accusations, it is often claimed that many elements of Catholic liturgy, celebrations, and traditions can be traced back to pagan roots. However, a deeper understanding reveals that these accusations are unfounded and stem from a misunderstanding of the Catholic Church's biblically based, thoughtful, and theologically sound practices.

What Does "Pagan" Mean?

Clarifying the concept of "paganism" is the first step in examining the accusations against the Catholic Church for allegedly adopting pagan-origin practices. The word "pagan" originates from the Latin term paganus, meaning "rural" or "rustic," but the term itself is not found in the Bible. In Late Latin, it roughly carried the meaning of "country dweller." In biblical texts, the Hebrew goyim and Greek ethnoi—often translated as "pagans"—simply mean "nations" or "peoples," in contrast to the Jewish people, "the People."

It is important to understand that the Bible does not reject all practices or beliefs that are of non-Jewish origin. The prohibitions concern idolatry and immorality, not all non-Jewish cultural elements. Thus, the Bible is not anti-culture but anti-ungodliness. This approach allows for certain "pagan-origin" practices to become neutral over time, even though they were once part of a pagan worldview.

For example, the Jews retained the Babylonian names of the months because their use did not lead them to idolatry. Similarly, converts to Christianity among the Germanic peoples were allowed to keep their old Germanic and Roman day names since these names did not affect their Christian faith. Today, no one associates the names of the days with any pagan gods.

This principle extends to many other areas, such as Babylonian-origin astronomy, Greek-based geometry, or Roman-origin wedding rings. All these are now part of our culture, but the pagan ideas that once accompanied them have long since fallen away. The same is true for Christmas decorations, which no longer carry any pagan connotations. Today, no one is bothered by the fact that these items may have once had pagan origins, because the magical significance that was once attached to them has long disappeared.

In essence, the question is not whether something was originally pagan, but what significance it holds today. If a practice or item has lost its original pagan meaning and now carries a neutral or Christian significance in contemporary culture, it poses no problem for the Christian faith.

The Concept of Inculturation in the Catholic Church

Inculturation is a theological concept that describes the encounter and interaction between the Gospel and local cultures. According to Catholic theology, the truth of the Gospel is universal, but its expression and practice necessarily adapt to different cultures and historical contexts. The essence of inculturation is that the Church preserves the core of the faith while incorporating elements of local cultures that are not contrary to Christian teaching.

There are numerous biblical examples of inculturation. One of the most well-known cases is found in Acts 17, where the Apostle Paul speaks to the Greek philosophers in Athens. Paul recognizes the religiosity of the Athenians and their altar to the "unknown god," and uses this pagan element to preach the one true God to them. Paul does not outright reject the local religious elements but sees in them an opportunity to proclaim the Gospel. This is the principle of inculturation: integrating positive elements of local cultures without compromising the essence of the Christian faith.

The Practice of the Catholic Church

Throughout history, the Catholic Church has integrated various elements into its liturgy and practice that have origins in pagan customs. However, these elements were not incorporated to promote paganism, but to place them in the service of Christ and the Gospel. For example:

Christmas and the Winter Solstice: The feast of Christmas on December 25 coincides with the pagan feast of Sol Invictus, the "Unconquered Sun." However, Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth, not a pagan god. The Church consciously chose this date to replace the former pagan feast with a Christian celebration, thereby leading people to Christ.
Easter and Spring Festivals: The English word "Easter" likely derives from the name of the Germanic spring goddess Eostre. However, for Christians, Easter is the celebration of Christ's Resurrection, the most important event in the Christian faith. The original pagan roots of the name and the spring festival do not alter the Christian content and significance of Easter.
Use of Candles and Incense: Candles and incense were also present in pagan rituals. However, in the Catholic Church, these symbols represent the light of Christ and the prayers of the faithful rising to God. The shape and use of these objects are not inherently pagan; what matters is the meaning Christians ascribe to them.

Biblical Defense

The practices of the Catholic Church are therefore not contrary to Scripture, but rather represent a deeper, more thoughtful application of it. The Church does not accept any elements that would be explicitly contrary to the Gospel or Christian teaching. Just as Paul used elements of Greek culture to preach Christ, so too does the Church incorporate certain cultural elements to make the Gospel understandable and acceptable to all people.

In his First Letter to the Corinthians, Paul writes, “I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some” (1 Cor 9:22). This attitude defines the essence of Catholic inculturation. The Church’s goal is to lead all people to Christ, using cultural elements in a way that does not lead to idolatry or paganism.

We know that Paul willingly boarded a ship dedicated to Castor and Pollux, or that a Christian person in the Bible bore the names Fortunatus or Mercurius. But there is even more elaborate: Paul takes his analogy from the Mithraic cult when talking about shedding the old man and putting on the new man. And again: he approvingly quotes a verse ("in Him we live and move and exist") that originally addressed Zeus. He even calls a Cretan poet, Epimenides, a prophet.

Early Christians did not hesitate to call Jesus Savior, although Roman emperors and earlier pagan rulers used it as a decorative title. Similarly, the Kyrios, which was applied to Jesus in the first, most concise Christian creeds, was the emperor's title of honor. But Paul spoke of the victor's wreath, which was part of the pagan religious elements woven into the Olympic Games, or the winner's palm, which also symbolized eternity with pagan overtones.

Thus thee accusations against the Catholic Church for using pagan practices are unfounded upon closer examination. Inculturation is not the compromise of faith, but its effective and biblical propagation. The Church works to bring the message of Christ to all cultures, using all means that are not contrary to the Gospel. This approach not only does not violate the teachings of Scripture but is realized precisely in the spirit and principles of it.

Why Inculturation Is Not Syncretism

Syncretism is the blending of two or more religions’ teachings, beliefs, or practices in such a way that they merge in their original meaning and content, creating a new, mixed religious form. The Catholic Church, however, does not do this when it integrates pagan-origin practices into its liturgy or celebrations. In inculturation, pagan elements are not mixed with the core teachings of the Christian faith but are transformed and imbued with Christian meaning without altering or diluting fundamental Christian doctrines.

Why Inculturation Is Not Syncretism

Preservation of Christian Doctrine: In inculturation, the Catholic Church always preserves the core and purity of Christian faith. The Church does not accept elements that would contradict or compromise Christian teachings. For example, if a pagan practice was originally linked to idolatry, the Church only integrates it if it can be completely transformed and given a clear Christian meaning that does not contradict Scripture.
Imbuing with New Meaning: The process of imbuing pagan-origin practices with Christian meaning ensures that they do not serve the worship of other deities but are directed solely to the one true God. For instance, the Christmas tree, originally a pagan custom, in Christianity symbolizes the light of Christ and eternal life. This is not syncretism because the original pagan meaning completely disappears and is replaced by a Christian interpretation.
Biblical Example: As mentioned earlier, in Acts 17, the Apostle Paul provides an example of how local cultural elements can be used in the proclamation of the Gospel. Paul did not accept pagan religions but adjusted their elements to Christ and the Gospel. This is the essence of inculturation: aligning local customs with Christ without altering the core of the Christian faith.

How Does This Relate to 2 Corinthians 6:14-18?

In 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, the Apostle Paul warns Christians not to be "unequally yoked" with unbelievers and not to participate in practices associated with idolatry. Paul emphasizes that Christians should not compromise their faith or accept practices or customs that are explicitly contrary to Christian teaching.

However, inculturation does not mean that Christians compromise their faith. On the contrary, the goal of inculturation is to deepen and express the Christian faith in various cultures while preserving its purity and integrity. Elements that are not in harmony with Christian teaching are not incorporated into Church practice. The Church never accepts idolatry and never merges it with the core teachings of the Christian faith.

Therefore, the warning in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 is not contrary to inculturation because, in the process of inculturation, the Church does not align itself with idolatry or other pagan religious elements but transforms and aligns them with Christ. In inculturation, the Church follows the example of the Apostle Paul, who used pagan cultures to serve the proclamation of the Gospel while preserving the purity and unity of the Christian faith.

Hence the accusations against the Catholic Church for employing pagan practices and thus engaging in syncretism are unfounded. Inculturation is not syncretism because the Church does not merge different religions but transforms cultural elements to give them Christian meaning. Inculturation is based on biblical foundations and is not contrary to the warning in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, as the Church always preserves the purity of the Christian faith and rejects idolatry. Inculturation is thus an effective tool for spreading the faith, allowing the Gospel to reach and resonate with people in all cultures.

The "Pagan Influence" Fallacy is based on the idea that a religion, belief, or practice is discredited because it is of pagan origin or has been influenced by paganism, and is therefore considered corrupted or completely false. This fallacy is often committed by fundamentalists against Catholics, but other Christians, such as Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons, also commit it against Protestants and Catholics. Atheists and skeptics also apply this fallacy against Christianity and Judaism.

In the 19th century, the "pagan influence" fallacy was particularly widespread, partly due to the emergence of new archaeological discoveries and translations of ancient texts. Alexander Hislop's book The Two Babylons was one of the most well-known works accusing the Catholic Church of paganism. Since then, several sects, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, have based their arguments on the claims made in this book.

In the 20th century, modern archaeology and more mature scholarship have reduced the influence of the pagan influence fallacy, but many still commit this error. Those who base their arguments on the pagan influence fallacy often adopt and repeat accusations without properly documenting or verifying their origins.

One type of pagan influence fallacy is when someone claims that similar practices or beliefs exist only because one religion borrowed them from another. For example, they cite "Trinitarian" similarities in Egyptian religion, although this is misleading because the Egyptians did not worship a tri-personal single deity like the Christian Trinity but a pantheon of multiple gods.

The existence of similarities alone does not prove that one religion borrowed from another. Moreover, it is also essential to consider how a particular parallel developed and how it was treated by the followers of the religion—positively, neutrally, or negatively.

Finally, even if there is a similarity between two religious practices, it does not mean that one is inherently wrong simply because it has a pagan parallel. Each case must be judged based on its content, not its supposed historical origin.

What is Logoi Spermatikoi and How Does It Relate to the Assessment of Paganism?

The term "logoi spermatikoi" or "logos spermatikos" originates from ancient Greek philosophy and is primarily recognized as an important concept in Christian theology. The term itself means "the seeds of the Word" or "the Word's seeds" and was most notably used by Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 AD) in Christian thought.

In Greek philosophy, the word "logos" originally referred to divine reason or the principle that organizes the universe. The word "spermatikos" means "seed-bearing" or "fertilizing." Justin Martyr explained that "logos spermatikos" is the "seed" that the divine Logos (the Word) sowed within humanity. This seed enabled pagan philosophers and thinkers to recognize certain truths, even though they were not Christians. Justin believed that the search for and partial recognition of truth is not limited to Christians but is accessible to all humanity because the divine Logos influences all of humanity.

The concept of "logoi spermatikoi" is particularly important in the context of evaluating paganism and pagan philosophy. According to Justin and other early Christian theologians, pagan philosophers like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle participated in certain aspects of divine truth through "logos spermatikos," even though they did not fully recognize it, which was manifested in its entirety in Christianity.

This idea allowed early Christian theologians to avoid completely rejecting pagan thought but instead to recognize in it those elements that are consistent with Christian teaching. Therefore, certain truths in pagan philosophy could be integrated into Christian doctrine without being accused of any form of syncretism.

The concept of "logoi spermatikoi" plays a crucial role in how Christianity evaluates pagan cultures and philosophies. According to this principle, pagan thought is not entirely to be dismissed but rather may contain partial truths that are universally accessible to humanity through the influence of the divine Logos. Thus, for Christians, it is not problematic to integrate certain pagan elements into their faith, provided that these elements do not contradict Christian teaching but rather complement and enrich it.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

aqwsed12345

Is the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon?

The Babylon connection?

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

aqwsed12345

The claim that Peter was in Rome is not based solely on Acts 12:17, but rather on a combination of scriptural, historical, and archaeological evidence. The early Church Fathers, such as Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch, who were much closer to the time of the apostles, also attested to Peter’s presence and martyrdom in Rome. The Acts of the Apostles was written as a historical account, not fiction, and was written by Luke, a companion of Paul, not a proto-Orthodox church in the 2nd century.

The innterpretation of Matthew 24:9-28 and related passages appears to be influenced by a modern eschatological perspective rather than a historical one. The "great tribulation" in 66-70 CE is not the definitive fulfillment of the eschatological prophecies; rather, these are understood by many Christians to have a dual fulfillment, addressing both the immediate context of the early Church and the ultimate end times. Jesus' "parousia" is not limited to that generation but refers to His final return, which Christians have awaited ever since.

Catholic doctrine is indeed apostolic, as it traces its teachings back to the apostles through an unbroken line of succession. The concept of the Trinity, the veneration of Mary, and other doctrines are rooted in early Christian tradition, not in "paganism". The charge of "pagan worship" is a common, but unfounded, critique that has been refuted many times over by both Catholic and non-Catholic scholars. Read this:

It’s important to differentiate between the sins of individuals within the Church and the Church’s teachings. The Catholic Church does not condone the actions of those who have committed atrocities, and it has sought to address these issues. The Church is made up of human beings who, like everyone else, are capable of sin. However, this does not invalidate the truth of the Church’s teachings. The Church itself has acknowledged its failings and has taken steps to seek forgiveness and reconciliation.

You bring up various historical incidents, some of which are distorted or taken out of context, to argue against the Catholic Church’s legitimacy. While the Church has certainly faced dark periods in its history, it has also been a force for immense good in the world, from establishing hospitals and schools to advocating for the poor and oppressed. To paint the entire history of the Church with a broad brush of negativity is to ignore the vast contributions it has made to global civilization and the spread of Christianity.

In conclusion, your arguments seem to be based on a selective reading of history and scripture, as well as a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church, despite the failings of some of its members, continues to uphold the teachings of Christ and the apostles. The criticisms you’ve raised have been addressed by the Church over centuries, and they do not diminish its role as the Church founded by Christ.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

aqwsed12345

Your critique seems driven by a deep misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church teaches and what the Bible actually says. It’s important to address both the misconceptions about the Church and the logic behind your reasoning.

First, the idea that the Catholic Church somehow aligns with "ancient Babylon" (?) is a misinterpretation often based on a selective reading of scripture and a misunderstanding of history. The Church has always professed faith in Christ, the same Christ who established His Church on Peter (Matthew 16:18). The Catholic Church is not a man-made institution but a continuation of the Church Christ founded.

Second, regarding the horrific sins committed by individuals within the Church, it’s essential to differentiate between the failings of individuals and the teachings of the Church itself. The Church is made up of human beings who, like all people, are susceptible to sin. However, the sins of individuals do not invalidate the truth of the Church’s teachings. The Bible is replete with examples of God using flawed people to accomplish His will—King David, who committed adultery and murder, yet was still called a man after God’s own heart (Acts 13:22), is a prime example.

The Catholic Church does not "whitewash" the sins of its members. On the contrary, the Church teaches repentance, accountability, and justice, echoing the Bible’s call for the same (1 John 1:9). The Church’s doctrine remains unblemished by the personal sins of its members, just as God’s covenant with David wasn’t nullified by David’s sins. The Church’s teachings stand on the truth of Christ, not the personal holiness of its leaders.

Finally, accountability is indeed a fundamental tenet of the Bible, but it applies to individuals rather than institutions. The Church holds its members to account, but it does not claim that its truth depends on the sinlessness of its leaders. The truth of the Gospel is independent of human weakness.

To conclude, the Catholic Church upholds the Bible’s teachings, including the recognition of sin, the need for repentance, and the call for holiness. The sins of individuals do not erase the truth that the Church proclaims, just as the sins of David did not negate his anointing by God. The Church’s role is to lead people to Christ, not to be an idol in itself. Rejecting the Church because of the sins of some of its members is akin to rejecting Christ because Judas was one of the apostles.