Posts by Hoffnung

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

"How would designed life differ from non designed life?"

"How do you test design, or predict what is designed and natural occuring?"

All very good questions. I have tried to make list of expectations to be set if the designer theory would be true. Definitely this list is not complete, and maybe some points are not valid. I invite you all to debate the merits of these, and add others if you like.

For life to be a product of design:

- There should be proof of trial and error. How bizar that may seem, I do not think a designer will have it spot on from the 1st time, so I would expect to see traces of try outs, and traces of removing and restarting.

- Every life form should have a purpose or a function in the system where it lives. No systems designer adds stuff to make it more beautiful.

- There should be sudden appearances in relatively great amounts of new inventions. Let us say, feathers were developed for the 1st time. I would expect to find the 1st traces of feathers from the same era in several places of the world.

- Ecosystems appear suddenly and remain relatively stable, and do not develop over millions of years.

- Balancing mechanisms should be introduced, which prevent one species to become so numerous that it destroys its ecosystem upon which it depends, thereby preventing its own extinction. Also these balancing mechanism should appear all in the same era.

- components that have proven to be reliable, will be found in other non-related life forms.

- There would be certain barriers between life forms that cannot be broken. e.g.: Plants live on carbondioxide and sunlight. animals need oxygen to live. There does not exist an animal that lives on carbon dioxide instead of oxygen, as far as I know.

- there should be repetitive processes in the development of life, a kind of design software if you like.

- there should exist unique building blocks which can be torn down, but which can never be replaced or rebuilt from scratch. E.G the ozone layer or the ionosphere.

Please add your comments. I am quite sure a few of these will be trashed with logical arguments.

35

57% of all publishers pioneered in April

by hoser in

jw
friends

we had a letter read this afternoon after the watchtower study that said we had 54,408 auxillary pioneers in april and with the regular pioneers it totaled 64,855 in full time preaching in april.

57% of the publishers.. so my guess is that the co will come down hard on any congregation that didn't meet those numbers next april.. i think the 30 hour thing had it's desired effect.. hoser.

Hoffnung

Can someone go to a few meetings a month or none at all, never do field service (yet perhaps talk with a neighbour or leave one magazine/year at a bus stop), etc. and have full assurance of living forever? This may be an acid test of Christian grace/faith alone vs cultic works. Can a person be saved by not being part of the Catholic Church or the WT organization?

Godrulz, there are 2 options to get salvation, according to the watchtower system:

Either, You were so lucky to have not known enough about the witnesses to become a believer before you die AND your death is BEFORE Armaggeddon, you will get a resurrection in paradise. e.g. you live in China and died last year = free ticket to paradise. You live in the USA and had multiple visits of JW and died last year = most probably eternal destruction. You die at Armaggeddon = guaranteed eternal destruction (JW included, he/she must have done something wrong and was not "deserving")

Or, you are a bapized witness and go faithful in service every month, enduring to the very end, to the max of your capacities & life circumstances, never doing a hidden sin, or (God forbid) speak bad about the elders, faitful and discrete slave and other muppets. No works = no salvation. Works = possible salvation. Actually, it is never going to be enough. There is always an extra goal you have to set yourself to improve yourselves, never being sure if even that is enough. Grace is hardly ever used amongst witnesses. Going to a few meetings or leaving one magazine a year is not going to do the trick. Right now the actual wording used lately = you must "qualify" to get saved. You can imagine the pressure to perform is up.

It is all part of the mind control techniques

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

if you would have read my posts, you would know, that what you write is not true.

I have lost my religion. I do not believe the creation story in the bible to be supported by facts. Please do not be so quick in judging peoples motivation for questioning things. Because you don't have a real clue. JWs like to attack peoples motivation. It is an easy side tracking method. Which I don't like.

"How would designed life differ from non designed life?"

"How do you test design, or predict what is designed and natural occuring?"

I think these are excellent questions, and defenders for either side would do well to think about them, me included. I hope you can do so objectively.

9

Depression and Reinstatement efforts

by AuntBee in

long story, but i was talking online with someone who has been dfed for a long time, encouraging her to join a support group.

-- the person has been trying to get reinstated for years.

described how she has felt unwelcome and unsupported and is depressed.

Hoffnung

Recommend her Steven Hassan's books "Combatting cult mind control" & "releasing the bonds" (in that order), and she will understand what kind of fear she is dealing with.

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

"the anthropic principle is still valid when assessing whether the conditions under which life can exist can be duplicated elsewhere in the universe."

Well, the amount of variables drastically influences the amount of chance. We do not have all the variables available to calculate the chance. Chances are that it's a lot more complicated than we thought it was. Otherwise it would have already been done, most probably. We can't know whether it is one chance in a billion or one chance in a thousand, until we have created life (duplicated its origin if you like). And that is a fact. I have nothing against the principle though. Many modern appliances would not be available without it. But only with reliable data.

"neither of us a-priori know what happens if you take a planet like the early earth and leave it alone for a few billion years".

True, however, scientists are searching for the early stages of our planet. And I think they've come quite far in that field already.

"This too is ever so slightly slanted language in comparing life with dead material."

I think you understand what I mean though. Sorry for my use of simple language. maybe "non-living" would be more accurate. standard elements and molecules like they are available in other parts of the universe. iron, oxygen, water, etc...

"The wheel illustration is limited also . . . because we are armed with the knowledge that such an object is in fact designed."

Otherwise I would not have used it, right? The point I make with it is still valid. It is all about accepting or eliminating possiblities and finding keys to the real answer. In that respect, the illustration does a good job.

So what is the similar list of "demands" we make from theistic scientists?

Bohm, I think that is one of the best questions one can ask in this debate. I hope you can come up with a list of such conditions. I will think about these as well, but I might not be fully objective, and hence overlook some conditions.

Terry, did you notice I have not quoted a single bible verse? looking for traces of a designer in the origin of life and believing in the God of the bible are miles away from each other. That has no place in this debate, IMO.

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

I agree that advancing the designer theory does not really resolve the problem of HOW life originated, because it merely rephrases the question to: HOW did the designer DO it? + an extra problem is created: Where did the designer come from? A question we will never find answered unless the designer reveals himself in an undisputable way.

That is however no reason to reject the theory. It is not because of doubling the problem, that it becomes unacceptable or impossible.

To illustrate: we will never know how the 1st wheel came about. But nobody doubts that somebody invented it. It was designed, and we don't know where the designer came from. It is not because the answer: "somebody designed it", is actually a doubling of the problem, and not really a solution, does not mean it is not true. It is a key to the solution. To find the answer, we will have to start searching for the oldest wheel. As the earth is quite old, there are many traces of all the life forms and sequences of them, with other words, it could be possible to find some of the designer tricks used, bringing us closer to the HOW-answer. That is one side.

On the other side, to prove the anthropic principle, there are 2 necessary conditions.

1st. Scientists will have to prove that they can build life from dead material on purpose, influencing directly the process. We are closer to this than ever before, I must admit.

2nd. After this, they will have to prove that the necessary conditions, to bring all the building blocks of this life form together with the triggering mechanism of it, could have happened spontaneously.

If both conditions are fullfilled, we will finally have reliable data to start calculationg how much CHANCE there is that this happened, and only THEN, the anthropic principle can be used. As far as I know, there is not enough data available, as both conditions are not yet fullfilled. But maybe I did not do my homework well enough, and scientists might have made progress in this fields.

Ruling out the designer theory, is throwing away one of the keys to the answer of one of the most important questions one can ask. I am not convinced I should throw away that key, as there is much in nature that speaks against it.

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

The reason I am in favor for the designer theory, is that I am a technician and have come across many complex systems. When I compare these with the systems in nature, every logic thinking vibe in me is obliged to see a great designer behind it all. Mere coincidence does not create or design anything, definitely no complex life systems.

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

What happened when this "one chance in a billion" took place?

What were the chemical, fysical, electrical, thermodynamic processes behind it? Why is nothing spontaneously like that ever duplicated in a lab?

energy transportation is not the same as life. The spontaneous formation of a complicated molecule like DNA, however small the chance of this happening, does not bring anything to life.

one chance in a billion explains nothing. It's a theory like the designer theory with it's own merits and problems. up for everybody to believe or to reject, usually depending on your agenda and religious or atheist past and present beliefs.

I lost my religion. I have no agenda. I just want to know.

Before I forget, I would like to thank Nickolas for taking the time to give us the excerpt out of Dawkins book.

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

How many of these are in a goldilocks zone?

How many are orbiting around stable stars like the sun?

How many of these have vaccuum cleaner planets like Jupiter around?

How many have an oxygen-rich atmosphere?

How many contain water in abundance?

The answers to these questions reduce chances in considerable measure.

122

Refuting the ARGUMENT BY DESIGN.

by nicolaou in

it's tiresome and it doesn't add up but it's one of the most popular arguments for god's existence, "the argument by design.

" jehovah's witnesses and other believers point out a wonder of nature like the eye and compare it to a 'lesser' mechanical wonder of human design like a camera.

the supposed conclusion is that this natural wonder is evidence of creation by a powerful designer; god.. .

Hoffnung

Hi Nicalou,

Thank you for bringing this up. I am not a creationist and I do not like it to be compared with one. The processes in nature are what they are since many millions of years. No creator - designer - god has done anything to them since ages ago. There is no need for it for the designer to act, as the processes are almost perfect.

I even can agree with some points of the natural selection idea.

However the anthropic principle is absolute bollocks. It is as much a circular reasoning as the Witnesses use them so often. It is not because there is one chance in a billion and there are this billion planets available in the universe, that things happened this way.

I am not going to hang my understanding of the universe on something that has such a low probability of happening. You will not hang your life on an operation that has one chance in a million to succeed, are you?