Posts by saltyoldlady

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

saltyoldlady

No Mean Mr. Mustard - I am a "has been" - was one for many decades but DA'd over a year ago. Now really - do you think I would be endeavoring to show how the Bible showed 607 BC to be wrong and 587 BC to be right for the destruction of Jerusalem if I still was one? But admit I must write like one after so many years in the org - wordy and verbose. sorry

Trying to make it short and simple but having to do it in installments because of my other obligations at the moment.

Lesson 4 - The Joshua - Judges Gap. Scriptures give us very little to go on - seems like a blank wall at first. They do tell us he died at age 110 but we do not know when he was born. It is obvious some time does need to be in this timeline for Joshua's administration after division of the land - it is very unlikely he just popped off at that moment. It is not unreasonable to assume he might have been close to the age of Caleb so temporarily I plugged that into the effort - if he was 85 at the time of division of the land and he died at age 110 he would have had 25 years more and that would be quite likely. That would have him dying about 1610 BC. As it turned out when I got all done it became obvious he died in 1608 BC - close to the previous speculation - WTS just leaves any time consideration out of the picture for Joshua. We just can't do that in an honest search for truth.

Next we have the period of the Judges - that one is simple - count up all the time spans given in the Book of Judges plus include the 40 years of Eli's judging - at first I came up with only 410 years in the Book of Judges and was puzzled but later reading I Kings I realized Eli must be included and that completed the 450 years for judges perfectly, just as stated in older translations in Acts 13:20 before the current Kingdom Interlinear messed with this verse - because of their inability to get 450 years for Judges into their time schemes. So subtracting 450 years brings us down to 1158 BC with the death of Eli. Obviously I do not agree with Russell that this is a tangled mess at all - it was only tangled up for him and others because they simply couldn't fit it in having made errors in Abraham's day.

Lesson 5 will deal with Samuel and the problems presented there since it is another area not spelled out just precisely.

11

Steven Hassan on Huffington Post: Who's Calling Whom A Cockroach Now?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

this is in my opinion an excellent article by steven hassan about rebuilding trust after shocking circumstances and previous hatred.

i will quote the first two paragraphs.

the link to the full article is here:.

saltyoldlady

Just to add an ironic twist here for a sense of humor - WTS does refer to its own people as "cockroaches" - see Joel 2:25 where they are depicted as Jehovah's mighty army and in the Book of Revelation as locusts following Abaddon out of the pit - Abaddon now thought to represent Jesus Christ - an 180% switcheroo from days long ago when he represented the devil.

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

saltyoldlady

Lesson 3 of Bible Chronology - We left off with Abraham being born 2181 BC - Gen 12:4 tells us when Abram (Abraham) was 75 years old - that would be 2106 BC God told him to be on his way out of Haran and on into the land of Canaan and He would make a great nation of Abraham - a covenant promise. Gal 3:17 tells us 430 years later after this Covenant the Law came into being - meaning the Law handed down at Mt Sinai - so that makes quick work of that period of history. And brings us to 1676 BC for the Exodus - straight and simple.

This is much earlier than any other Bible scholars I know of place the Exodus. But it is just straight Bible Scripture so I decided to press on with it and see what happened - one interesting correlation I did note was the possibility that Ahmose I was the Pharoah of the Exodus and he is generally thought to have died about 1550 BC - that puts us 126 years off per the Egyptian records. But one thing that snapped right out into my nose (I have a looong nose) was the 126 year discrepancy would put us at the year 4,000 BC for the beginning of man's history or at least this Biblical history - smacks of Ussher who was widely accepted as The Authority for many many years - more on all of that another day but for now and the sake of simplicity stick to the 1676 date - turns out in the end it works much better with Egyptian history as now known also.

And this was all so simple might as well proceed with the march in the wilderness - 40 years under Moses brings us to 1636 BC. Joshua 14:7 thru 10 gives us our next clue - Caleb was 40 years old when sent out upon the spying mission with Joshua and the other ten. This was in the 2nd year of the Exodus. And he says it has been 45 years since then - he is now 85 years old so we can conclude six years of camping in the wilderness and wandering and conquering of the land were involved before this point and that leaves us at 1630 BC. Some say from the entrance into Canaan until the dividing up of the land took 7 years - I believe the WTS says 6 years based on what I have outlined above. So give a little - plus or take a year here and there the date of the division of the land might actually be 1629 BC.

Next lesson gets down into the first thorny problem and time gap.

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

saltyoldlady

Lesson Two on Bible Chronology - Next pick up the thread from the time of the flood down to Abraham's birth - in Genesis Chapter 11 verse 10 - history of Shem. I count 1 year for the time being on the ark so arrive at a date of 2473 BC - Genesis 8:13 - Noah was in his 601st year when he came out of the ark and in Genesis 7:6 he was 600 when he went into the ark but many don't bother to include that time span in their reckoning and you may leave it out if you wish.

But next we come into a major difference that I make in the usual chronologies. I come up with a total of 292 years after coming off the ark until the time Abraham born arriving at a date of 2181 BC for his birth. The old timers will recognize that figure being a major date from the old Russel charts with their 2181 year time spans. I prefer to interpret the verse telling the age of Terah after which he produced Abraham, etc. in the same way as all the preceding verses - that Abraham could have been born when Terah age 70 or thereabouts. WTS prefers to think he was born when Terah 135 yrs old - I'll just stick with consistency in interpretation of the numbers as given by preference. Terah - age 70 per scriptures. To do otherwise will get one into a heap of trouble as we will eventually see.

So just add up all the years there in Chapter 11 to verify my 292 years for yourself. A few others have drawn the same conclusions as I, I discovered in Morton Edgar's book on the Pyramids. So this idea is not original with me - but for my discovery it was just the scriptures talking plain and simple. No efforts to arrive at some preconceived dates was one of my guidelines.

Lesson 3 will proceed with the time from birth of Abraham to the Exodus from Egypt.

12

Your favorite Chapter from 'Crisis of Conscience?'

by Joliette in

jw
friends

i would have to say that my favorite chapters are 'points of decision' and the 'aftermath' chapter.. what about yours?.

saltyoldlady

My favorite chapter was also the one on Malawi because I remember how intensely my sorrow was when that terrible persecution began - and then to learn that it wasn't even a political system with two parties - but only one party - period - that it was not really a political involvement at all to sign the card - just another tax from the government and a request for obedience to the laws of the land. Scripturally it could have been complied with - my take on the situation at the GB was probably they heard the word "Party Card" and just triggered - oh that is political involvement. No don't sign it - without of course much thought as to what might happen if they didn't. I am sure the members of the GB never even entertained the terrible results that might occur.

But have to relay some humorous comments (or maybe not so humorous - depends on one's point of view) that happened in my exit interview upon DA'ing from the congregation. They were of course interested in digging into my reasons so I shared this material from that chapter of Crisis of Conscience. The PO had started to read the book he confessed when he was of course much younger but never completed it. But he is a "black" brother - and one I always loved as a person exceptionally warm and large-hearted - I am white and had never felt any racial prejudice on his part before but this night it slipped out - he said there was no way those brothers in Malawi put their lives on the line because of some white dudes (exact terminology used) sitting in New York. He was willing to personally fly me over there to talk with them if it would make a difference to me (of course he was just talking big here - I understood that - he would not have been able to follow through had I taken him up on it) but he just knew that Ray Franz "take" on the matter was wrong.

Anyway that was an eye-opener to me that the few token white people in this congregation were just something he had to put up with - condescend to - it saddened me. I have always felt intensely the stigma and prejudice they have suffered and have admired them for their marvelous abilities to overcome the hardships put upon them. It has always seemed to me that the black brothers and sisters I have known are some of the most intelligent and competent individuals in the congregation, and I suspect it is because they have had to strive ever so much harder to achieve success in this system prevailing today.

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

saltyoldlady

For those of you who think a female unlikely to be a Bible chronology buff I'm here to tell you that is NOT SO!!!! But I did offer to show Spade (Alice) a method of verifying the date of destruction of Jerusalem primarily from the Bible (think I used the word strictly but that was not a good choice.) Alice made zilch replies to that offer so my conclusion was she/he is not genuinely interested. Few are - they have been discouraged by WTS prophetic disappointments.

But for some fun on the subject here goes - 12 easy lessons on Bible Chronology - nothing cast in stone though - just for your consideration and my fun speculation

Lesson 1 - I begin with 4130 BC (or BCE - whichever you prefer) - the older brothers began with 4126.5? Interesting Mayan Calendar begins the current cycle with 5126.5 I think - current WTS begins with 4026 - don't know that we need to keep on with the and 1/2 anymore - we'll clean up that matter when we get done to Christ's birth. But my reasons for settling on 4130 were in part because I love messing with numbers and it just seems to me Jesus should have been born on a number divisible by 7 - of course God is better at fractions than I so He is not constrained to that sort of reasoning. And you can start wherever you like - the proof will be in the whole outlay.

I was simply trying to see if I could establish a line of reasoning from the Scriptures themselves without getting involved with men's opinions - did Jehovah leave us a trail to identify this date? There are a couple gaps in the line of figures but see if you like my methods of reconciliation? It seems to me that the Bible does indeed sparkle with truth to be obtained on this subject.

We begin the numbers journey in Genesis Chapter 5 - simple addition of the figures given for history there brings us to a total of 1656 years before the flood. Have never seen anyone debate that subject - it is just there - laid out for us. If we begin with 4130 BC that brings us to 2474 BC as the date for the flood - if we begin with 4126 BC we arrive at 2470 BC for the flood - think that date will be familiar to any old timers who were in WTS before the arbitrary shaving off of 100 years from the beginning which as we proceed will be seen to be very short-sighted on Freddie's part. I was in search of "why" he did that. Lesson 2 will pick up with the date of the flood.

Fred Franz's reasons for shaving off the 100 years from the beginning will be addressed clearly and concisely - his logic easy to see but you will need reference to Benjamin Wilson's Diaglot, footnote to I Kings 6:1 - we will address this item later - but it is a passage that has produced many problems for chronologists including the WTS.

16

1943-44 Milton Henschel Historical Documents

by Marvin Shilmer in

jw
friends

1943-44 milton henschel historical documents.

today i uploaded some historical documents that researchers might find helpful.

these documents show milton henschel at 23 years of age.

saltyoldlady

Wow - I clicked on the party card for Malawi and enlarged it so it was easy to read - amazing, just amazing that all those brothers and sisters had to suffer like they did because WTS decided it couldn't be signed. It was one of the most reasonable documents for a government to issue I have ever seen. Establishes Franz's comments totally. A small pledge requiring one to obey the laws of the land in essence - should never have become a conscience issue at all.

Thank you so much for this post and I shall enjoy looking over even more items in my leisure - it is a treasure house. Thank you again.

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

saltyoldlady

Dear Spade - I think your name is very appropriate. He who excavates a pit will fall right into it and I think you done dug your grave. Shall we cover you up?

36

Assembly changes

by d in

i was wondering what changes have you seen with assemblies now.compared to assemblies in the 1950's..

saltyoldlady

I didn't get started going to assemblies until the 60's so I never experienced those long ones - can't even imagine it - usually by 5PM these days we were all worn out (from just sitting - LOL) and by the end of three days we'd HAD IT. Many of us older ones would divide it up going just one day at a time to each convention scheduled. I suspect the brothers will cut it down from 3 days for the District Convention to just 2 days sometime in the near future - would save tons of money - and they could call it being "lovingly kind and considerate" to all those poor bored souls.

But what I remember from the older ones conversations that went to the really BIG assemblies like 1958 were the enthusiasm - it was a once in a lifetime experience for them that they still reveled in 50 years later. It was truly special to them. Can you imagine anyone getting that psyched up today about an assembly or convention they attended?

And another thing that I have observed and wondered if others have too - have you ever tried counting how many of those who participated in the special experiences interviews ended up out of the organization later? One would think they would be the last to leave - they were special - singled out for sharing their encouragement with the big crowds - but again and again I have seen these same ones either getting DF'd, DA'd, or just mysteriously evaporating into space, probably quietly faded. In later years too the experiences began to include those that were only current Bible Studies - not even a requirement that they eventually got baptized or came into the organization. I remember at one Circuit Assembly when they featured an experience from my own congregation - knowing the whole story I couldn't help but wonder - wow, if they think that is special we are in big trouble. Now if one just finds someone who agrees to study it is considered an experience worth featuring at an assembly. This is pathetic.

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

saltyoldlady

Spade - What led me out of the WTS was this very investigation. I decided to let the Bible give me the answer and dispense with anyone else (though I love C.O. Jonnson's book frankly) but the Bible alone proves 587 - not 607. If you would like to pursue that with me I'd be delighted but I will start a new thread on Bible Chronology itself -

In the meantime all the pictorial proofs from the library in this thread are going into my favorites section - I love them.