John_Mann

Joined

• started 11 topics
• posted 1,225 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by John_Mann

• 
  33

  Apparently, William Tyndale was an early J-Dub?

  by My Name is of No Consequence in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  my wife and son were watching the january broadcast and one of the segments was about william tyndale.

  william tyndale was a bible translator in the early 16th century.

  i always knew that the org held men like tyndale, john hus and john wycliffe in high regard.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Good point John_Mann. The org loves Hus, Tyndale, Wycliffe and even Isaac Newton. But I never heard or read where Calvin or Luther were put in a favorable light with the org. Luther and Calvin were reformers too, were they not?

  I think they only love these men because they hate the main reformers. Because they try to detach themselves from Protestant Reform. Because they don't want to be seen as being part of Catholic Church (traditional Protestants are in partial communion with CC and share a great amount of central doctrines). They even try to stablish a bizarre authority succession from Abel, considered to be the first Jehovah's Witness.

  JWs are not alone in this thinking. Baptists try to trace down their authority to John Baptist.

  They don't want to admit their version of Christianity is very recent in history and always founded by a single man with totally original (and opposite) ideas.

  In the end is just a copycat version of the Catholic doctrine of apostolic succession.
• 
  33

  Apparently, William Tyndale was an early J-Dub?

  by My Name is of No Consequence in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  my wife and son were watching the january broadcast and one of the segments was about william tyndale.

  william tyndale was a bible translator in the early 16th century.

  i always knew that the org held men like tyndale, john hus and john wycliffe in high regard.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  They don't like Luther and Calvin.
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  This is how I interpret your position.

  What other kind of valid interpretation of reality do you accept beyond scientific method and atheism?

  I accept science and atheism being valid kinds of knowledge (Dawkins is right when he says every theist is also an atheist in a sense) but I know the limitations of them. You seems to use science and atheism as the only two kinds of valid and universal knowledge.
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Conversely, theism, as interpreted by Christians and most other religions, is thoroughly demolished by science. I have long ago concluded that the strength of Christianity is rooted on the ability of the leaders to maintain the masses ignorant. They have done an excellent job so far.

  This is very true to some Christian denominations.

  I know theism is not science. But it's not anti-science.

  I just find very intriguing that people like cofty preach the "Sola Science" but at the same time has no problem professing a non-scientific central position and blaming others to hold non-scientific positions. It's a double standard.

  I think the majority of people here defending the "Sola Science" lacks basic knowledge about philosophy of science. Here's a good video about it:

  https://youtu.be/kH785oawwkk
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Yes thank you all for a good conversation.

  Just reminding atheism is not science. Atheism is a philosophical position. But some atheists add the position of "Sola Science" which is not a scientific position either.

  Just like the Sola Scriptura it's not found in Bible the "Sola Science" it's not found in science too.
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Well I think we reached a dead-end and my conclusion is:

  # By analyzing our morality systems we're able to spot just one dilemma (human embryos in scientific research).

  # And the bases of our morality systems are different. What you defined as absolute vs objective (which I disagree) and I define as Catholic vs atheist.

  You say embryonic research can bring a lot of good. But China is doing this kind of research since it was possible because they don't have this moral dilemma. I don't know nothing about what China discovered in this specific research, do you know about some panacea invented based on this research?

  Also I repeat you have a very Sola Scriptura influence in your atheism.

  And your position about "there's no absolute(s) in the universe" is a contradiction by itself.

  The reason of why our morality seems to be very similar is because I believe everyone has a soul created with absolute moral commands. Even if you deny the existence of the Law-giver you can't deny the law written inside you.
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Why should those suffering painful diseases care what you believe?

  Your position is stem-cell research specifically using human embryos is a miraculous panacea.

  You know this is not true.

  Can you please provide me other example of "anti-science" from my religious position?
  
  
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  John - I am happy to discuss the issues with you but I don't appreciate your efforts to psychoanalyse my feelings and motivations.

  Sorry I'm not comfortable in analyzing your feelings too but I think is necessary because I perceive a very emotional approach from you. I said that as a constructive criticism.

  My criticism of faith is not blind. It is based on a lot of experience. If I am making "gross logical contradictions" they should be very easy to point out. I am aware of no contradictions in my position but I am listening.

  You are making a philosophical attempt to differentiate objectiveness and absoluteness. But you're failing to do that.

  We agreed that when we talk about morality we are concerned about maximising the well being of CONSCIOUS creatures. How is achieved by prohibiting stem-cell research?

  Because I believe consciousness is produced by a soul and I believe the soul is created at the moment of conception. I'm not saying a fertilised egg is conscious but it have a conscious soul attached to it even though in a temporary dormant state (limbo).
  
  
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  I spent most of my life basing my beliefs on faith. Eventually I realised that faith is not a proper basis for knowledge. It is something people resort to when they lack evidence. Faith is a hindrance to morality. Faith is not a Virtue...

  As I said before this is the very reason of your clear feeling of revolt.

  Your previous faith truly made you accept anti-science doctrines like creationism.

  Creationism is a lie. For some reason you extrapolate your experience with faith to every other faith.

  Catholic faith (or Judaism and Buddhism AFAIK) for instance is not anti-science. Truly it can limit science in some very narrow aspects (human embryos), but this is not a total opposition to science. Establishing ethical limits to science is not the same as anti-science. BTW do you have more examples of "anti-science" in Catholicism?

  You are so blindly attacking faith itself that you are making gross logical contradictions in your position. And so far you seems not bother to see theses errors.

  Ironically now you embrace the faith that science must be the universal method to things not reached by science. Now you embrace the faith in scientism, and it's plain wrong just like your JW and Pentecostal faith.

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism
  
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  The Christian view on homosexuality is related to human conception. The conception and the moment of death are sacred in Christianity and are the bases to other doctrines.

  No matter how scientific you want to be cofty, you must understand this is not science but faith. Faith is not anti-science but at the same time can't be science because it copes with metaphysics while science not.

  Faith is a Divine gift and I don't know why some people does not have it.