Posts by Quendi

17

Ray Franz Comments on the Memorial as Celebrated by Jehovah's Witnesses...

by LUKEWARM in

thought this will be of interest at this time of year..... .

dear daniel,.

i appreciated your latest letter.

Quendi

Thank you ever so much, LUKEWARM, for sharing this letter. I am passing it along to others I know because I believe it will benefit them and many others. Ray Franz has presented his thinking in a warm and loving way, and I have more respect for him than ever. The letter recalled my one meeting with him back in 1980 in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. I came away deeply impressed, and this letter confirms that initial feeling.

The letter has also strengthened my resolve to boycott the Memorial "celebration" at the Kingdom Hall. For the first time since 1975, I will not be in attendance. My presence at the event isn't wanted anyway since I am now disfellowshipped. In the past, my treatment ranged from cold hostility to studied indifference, and that is another reason for me to stay away. Regardless of what Witnesses say about Christ's ransom sacrifice, they clearly do not believe it covers me, so why should I be part of their observance of the Lord's Supper? It makes no sense for me to be there.

But what I most appreciate about the letter is that it has made me rethink my belief on who should partake of the emblems. I do not have the hope of life in heaven. But that does not mean that I am not part of the body of Christ; or that the new covenant does not apply to me; or that I should not "partake" of the bread and wine. For the first time in many years, I will be glad to miss the Witnesses' empty "celebration". This letter has helped me immeasurably, and has made my spiritual journey that much more interesting.

Quendi

8

Meet Israel's Openly Gay High Priest

by PublishingCult in

aristobulus iii of israel (53 bc 36 bc) was the last scion of the hasmonean royal house, brother of herod the great's wife mariamne, and paternal grandson of aristobulus ii.

he was a favorite of the people on account of his noble descent and handsome presence, and thus became an object of fear to herod, who at first sought to ignore him entirely by debarring him from the high priesthood.

but his mother alexandra maccabeus (63 bc 28 bc), through intercession with cleopatra and mark antony, compelled herod to remove hananel from the office of high priest and appoint aristobulus instead.. .

Quendi

bookmark

9

HELL ain't what it use to be! Pastor in trouble for doubting it!

by Terry in

faith hell-questioning pastor rob bell says new book has led him to profound brokenness .

bell's recently-released book.. nashville, tenn. (ap) evangelical megachurch pastor rob bell said he did not anticipate the firestorm he would stir with his book that questions the traditional christian belief that a select number of believers will spend eternity in heaven while everyone else is tormented in hell.. bell said tuesday that he not only didnt set out to be controversial, he had no idea his best seller, love wins, would bring condemnation from people like southern baptist seminary president albert mohler, who claims bell is leading people astray.. the last couple of weeks have been most painful in my life, the pastor from mars hill bible church in grand rapids, mich., told a crowd of about 1,600 at nashvilles belmont university on tuesday after an audience member asked him about the criticism he has faced.

it has taken me to a place of profound brokenness.. but he said that with gods help he has been able to learn and grow from the experience.. even before the book was published last month, religious leaders and their followers were branding it heresy, hailing it as a breakthrough or landing somewhere in the middle.

Quendi

The last funeral I attended was my father's twenty years ago. He was not a Witness. The ceremony was held in a Southern Baptist church and was very dignified. My father's best friend gave the eulogy, and the service revolved around the life he had led and the people who loved him. No mention of the afterlife was made. Since he had served in the U.S. Army, we followed tradition by playing "Taps" at his graveside and then he got his 21-gun salute.

If the purpose of a funeral is to comfort the survivors, then my father's did just that. I was a strong Witness at that time, but I remember that our family did not have a deep theological discussion, nor did we descend into arguments about what fate my father met. But this thread does remind me of a story about Mark Twain.

Twain attended a dinner where the subject of who were in heaven and hell came up for discussion. The talk became heated as people ventured opinions on the destinations of some well-known people. All the while, as matters got hotter and hotter, Twain said nothing and let other people talk. Finally, the hostess turned to him and asked, "What do you think, Mr. Clemens? Surely you have an opinion." The response was classic. "Madam," Twain answered, "I am silent out of necessity. You see, I have friends in both places."

Quendi

13

Jehovahs Witness comments on university ten years ago - how they apply now

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

the comments were made by a militant jw pioneer/elder/ms training school, kind of ass hole.. at the time i was on the ministry with him.

as we walked by a swathe of students heading into university for the day he turned to me & said "look at them all!

each one on the road of futility".

Quendi

A friend of mine had this reaction to a Witness who told him that college was a waste of time: "If that is true, why do you have a degree in electrical engineering?" The man never brought up the subject again.

For that matter, when I made up my mind to return to college and get a degree, two elders called on me to ask why. One of them had a doctorate in geology. I couldn't understand why he was talking to me at all. To his credit, he didn't attack my decision. Instead he listened carefully to what I had to say and then concluded that I had given him much to think about.

When I finally graduated six years later, a few Witnesses attended the exercises. They were particularly proud of the fact that I was selected as one of the speakers at the recognition ceremony. The talk I gave was very well received by the two hundred or so in attendance, some forty of whom were friends and family. This is not to say that everyone in the congregation approved my choice. But when people understood that I was not going to let their opinions stop me from going back to college, they accepted it.

I first went to college during the 1970s and dropped out due to a combination of burnout and anticipation that Armageddon was very close. I returned nearly twenty years later with the determination that nobody would dissuade me from getting my degree. I have never regretted that decision. My education did not open up fantastic career opportunities for me as it has for others, but it has given me a sense of accomplishment and pride in what I have learned. I wouldn't have it any other way.

It angers me that the WTS has never ceased its war against higher education even as it has benefited from the knowledge and skills of those who went to college. The only time a college education is spoken of favorably is when the Society is in great need of college-trained experts. Even then, it actively discourages others from seeking that knowledge if they don't already have it. But such is the mindset of most Witnesses that they don't recognize the inherent contradiction and inconsistency of the organization's position.

Quendi

57

Has anyone left still believing it was the truth?

by FollowedMyHeart in

it seems that most xjws have left because at one point in their jw life something happened that made them start to think something wasn't right with the religion.

when i left, i still believed the jws had "the truth".

i was dying inside, trapped and unhappy (another poster's words, but describes exactly how i felt).

Quendi

I want to thank everyone for their thoughts on this important topic, particularly FollowMyHeart for initiating the thread, and the contributions of MrQuik, Aude Sapere, and Lady Lee whose thinking has reinforced my own. Right now I am resisting pressure from a close Witness friend. He never shunned me when I was df'd, but supported me emotionally, financially, and otherwise. Now he is telling me how much he wants me to attend the Memorial on the seventeenth. Of all the meetings I dislike, the Memorial is at the top of the list. I am pondering how I can tell him yet again that there is no going back for me, that I have more freedom now than I ever did as a JW.

We have discussed the problems that exist in the organization. He acknowledges them, but still insists that it is "the Truth" because of the preaching work and the teaching of certain doctrines that I can still agree with. It is difficult to get him to see that with respect to WTS teaching I am in the process of 'separating the wheat from the chaff'; and how such an examination is incompatible with remaining in the organization because of its demands for blind and total obedience. I am determined to hold my course, but I can only feel sorrow for people like my Witness friend. All I can do is to love him as much as I can so that I will be there should the day come when he wants to leave the WTS.

Quendi

42

If an 89 year old woman can pioneer, why can't you slackers and bums do it?

by miseryloveselders in

jw
friends

what's wrong with you slackers?

huh?

enough with your excuses!!!

Quendi

I thought this got posted, but evidently I hit the wrong button. When I pioneered, we had a man in the congregation who suffered from multiple sclerosis. His disease had progressed to the point where he could no longer drive. His wife was the breadwinner and he had two young sons in school, so he spent his days at home alone. He insisted that he could auxiliary pioneer, and he was certainly encouraged to do so by the elders. The problem was that his MS made him difficult to work with because he could not walk very well and had the kinds of physical problems one usually sees with advanced age.

Since I was the only male pioneer in the congregation then, I was the one who was assigned to work with him. I told him that the only way things would work well was if he would have a set schedule. I further told him that I would not work with him every day. He could have two days one week and three days the following week. Unfortunately, he didn't see things that way and insisted on going out daily. Eventually, I was forced to tell him that I would no longer take him in service or work with him if he found some other means of going out.

What annoyed me further was that the elders didn't have the backbone to tell him that his disease meant there was no way he could auxiliary pioneer. Multiple Sclerosis is a very debilitating illness, and it imposes burdens on everyone who has to deal with the afflicted person. This man should have been told that while he was welcome to work in service, there was no way his application for auxiliary pioneering would be approved. And naturally, none of the elders or ministerial servants wanted to work in service with him either. However, they were only too glad to put the burden on me.

That is the real problem I see with relaying these fantasy experiences like the 89 year old woman. Nothing is said of the burden her pioneering imposes on others. Nothing is said how the elders who approved her application and recommended her appointment don't lift a finger to help. They gladly pass the burden on to others. Nothing is said of the physical and mental toll 70 hours in the streets and all kinds of weather takes on the aged. And if the "pioneer" will not cooperate with those who must work with him or her, they are not counseled to do so or see the privilege revoked. Instead, the experience is relayed to make others feel guilty about their own non-pioneer status, as has been noted, and to exert even more mind control on the rank and file. It's all a charade.

Quendi

57

Has anyone left still believing it was the truth?

by FollowedMyHeart in

it seems that most xjws have left because at one point in their jw life something happened that made them start to think something wasn't right with the religion.

when i left, i still believed the jws had "the truth".

i was dying inside, trapped and unhappy (another poster's words, but describes exactly how i felt).

Quendi

I was disfellowshipped and spent several years trying to get reinstated because I believed the WTS was "God's organization" and that I would perish at Armageddon if I didn't get reinstated. I no longer think that way. I finally cut ties for good and all in June 2010. There were several reasons for this. One, I was tired of the games my judicial committee played. They always had something they wanted me to work on, or would make petty criticisms about trivial matters. Two, I was discovering that life outside the organization was good. Three, I had fallen on hard times economically and emotonally and it was my non-Witness friends who helped me the most. I still have contact with a few Witnesses, but the overwhelming majority of the ones I have known for years have completely shunned me. Four, I began studying the Bible for myself and wound up rejecting many WTS teachings. There are some I still believe such as no Trinity, no immortal soul, and everlasting life on Earth, but most WTS doctrines and philosophies I have jettisoned.

Now I have no desire to even enter a Kingdom Hall again for any reason whatsoever. I drive by the Hall occasionally just to remind myself of what I have escaped and rejoice in my freedom. I still consider myself a Christian, but am very happy to no longer be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. After more than thirty years of association, I had made some deep friendships. I still miss those people, but I have realized that I must move forward. Making new friends and strengthening the ones I already had have enabled me to make progress. I think back on my life as a Witness as life spent in a gilded cage. It certainly looked pretty, but it was still a prison. I am much better off on the outside.

Quendi

14

After you got reinstated from the congregation, did the love bombing start right away and how long did it last?

by Iamallcool in

Quendi

I am disfellowshipped with no intention of returning. White Dove is right to contrast the WTS approach with the one Jesus said should be done. But it is no surprise that a reinstated person is treated like a second-class citizen. After all, the reinstatement and "forgiveness" are both conditional. That person is still on "public reproof" because the restrictions that are placed on them after their reinstatement are exactly the same as those given to a person who has been publicly reproved. And depending on the elders in the congregation, it can take years to get the restrictions lifted. I think you are far better off not returning, but that is easier said than done. So many Witnesses have cut off relations with other family members and friends, that their entire world revolves around the WTS. To not return could mean a lifetime of isolation and loneliness. So they choose the lesser of two evils and come back. But considering how they are treated and the restrictions they still have after their return, I have to wonder if they have made a truly wise choice. I mean when the congregation is forbidden to even applaud when the annoucement is made and must wait until the meeting is over to extend any welcome, then that should be indication enough that the entire procedure is unchristian and unscriptural.

Quendi

23

Two elders are coming to visit at my invitation.

by Wasanelder Once in

the elders have been spreading lies about me to jw friends and they are panicked.

they don't know what to make of it.

i've never given them reason to doubt my faithfulness or to make them think i talk against the organization.

Quendi

Since you have served as an elder before, you are better prepared for this confrontation than the average publisher would be. But I don't expect anything good to come out of the meeting. I agree with others that the issue they will want to discuss is your loyalty to the organization's Governing Body. If you believe it is the "faithful and discreet slave" God is exclusively using to dispense spiritual truth to mankind then nothing else matters. That is the company line now. I was told that the only way I would be reinstated is if I would espouse this. I have refused to do so and will not return as a result. The organization's mistakes, errors, and crimes mean nothing to the elders. Only your blind obedience matters.

Quendi

16

Anyone Here With an "Earthly Hope"?

by Quendi in

since the memorial is a little more than two weeks away, i thought i would raise this question, particularly for those of us who have left the organization.

do you have what the wts calls the "earthly hope"?

i know many ex-jws have renounced religion altogether and don't believe in any of these things.

Quendi

Since the Memorial is a little more than two weeks away, I thought I would raise this question, particularly for those of us who have left the organization. Do you have what the WTS calls the "earthly hope"? I know many ex-JWs have renounced religion altogether and don't believe in any of these things. Others are still "religious" but have rejected any and all WTS teachings. And still others have embraced the belief that they will eventually go to heaven as that is the destiny of all Christians.

I personally have no hopes of going to heaven. I believed I would as a boy growing up in the Roman Catholic Church, but when I became a Witness I embraced the teaching of everlasting life on Earth as being God's original purpose for humanity. Now I have left the WTS and will not attend the Memorial this year. There are many reasons for me to boycott the celebration, but one of them is my own personal belief. I do not have, nor have I entertained, the hope of heavenly life. And since that is the case, why participate in or "observe" a ceremony that has nothing to do with my own beliefs or prospects? That has not changed since leaving Jehovah's Witnesses. I still believe that everlasting life in a physical body on a physical Earth will be my portion should God choose to reward me with eternal life. I am wondering if anybody else feels the same way.

Quendi