Posts by Quendi

42

Would you pose as an "interested one" and "study" to help free my family?

by Essan in

...in return for someone else doing the same with your friends or family?.

this is a hypothetical question to see how many would be interested in something like this and if it could work.

(i created another thread about this but the title and op wasn't clear enough.

Quendi

Here are my two cents which probably aren't even worth that. I applaud Essan and others who want to help their families and friends out of this cult. But I don't think this is the right way to do it. My reason for saying this is that at the bottom it is all based on deception. We are pretending to be something that we are not: an interested person who wants to study the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus faced such people in his ministry, men who pretended to be righteous and then tried to trip him up on the question of paying taxes to Caesar. Those men were said to be "cunning" and "hypocrites".

I don't want to come across as harsh, self-righteous, or judgmental. I know the motive behind this idea is a good one. I just don't think this is an honest way of helping others. I think it would be much better to say straight up to any Witness who comes to my door that I am willing to have a Bible-based discussion with him or anyone else as long as there is no restriction on what is to be examined. Furthermore, if I pose questions about Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs and organizational history, then I expect those questions to be addressed in a way that is respectful and honest. If the Witness agrees, then we can talk. Otherwise, we need to break off discussion then and there.

I prefer this approach because sooner or later, if the way Essan and others advocate is used, this point will be reached. What then? If the Witness learns that he has been strung along for the purpose of getting him to leave the cult, the reaction most likely will be an angry one. Who could blame him for that? If, on the other hand, he sincerely wants to do what is right, letting him know that an open, free, and frank discussion is the goal up front will save everyone precious time and hurt feelings. At least that is the way I see it. Many posters to this thread will probably disagree with me, but I wanted to put my thinking out there. In any case, I wish Essan and others every success in rescuing their loved ones from the clutches of the WTS.

Quendi

35

Those sweltering assemblies!

by highdose in

jw
friends

anyone from the uk remember the assemblies at twickenham?

cytrstal place?

gillingham?.

Quendi

@tenyearsafter:

If memory serves, the Witnesses won the "competiton" with Billy Graham hands down. The last day of the Rose Bowl assembly drew 118,000 people which was more than the total attendance for Graham's crusade. The other days at the Rose Bowl also saw huge crowds. Graham was embarrassed and didn't take too kindly to the figures being published in the newspapers.

Quendi

21

Awesome quote from the Watchtower!

by TimothyT in

i found this awesome quote from the book captives of a concept:.

beware of "organization.

it is wholly unnecessary.

Quendi

I agree with cofty. Russell may have started out as a humble "Bible student", but he certainly didn't remain that way, did he? Instead of encouraging Bible reading and study in small groups or cells, he went on and founded the WTS. From there he organized conventions and other things. After his death, J.F. Rutherford was determined to reshape the relatively small group of Bible Students into a smooth, well-run organization. Gradually, all decisions related to how the Bible Students would go about their "evangelizing work" were made by Brooklyn. The result is the power-mad organization we see today with its iron grip on the rank-and-file and dictatorial stance on matters of morals and doctrine.

I would add, poopsiecakes, that Russell wouldn't be spinning in his grave if he knew what was going on today. He got the ball rolling and he should have been well aware of what the eventual outcome would be. Let's not forget that this was a man who thought he was "the faithful and discreet slave" Christ appointed over his followers. It should come as no surprise, therefore, to see his successors have further enlarged that belief.

Anony Mous is right to say that what the Bible Students today have is what Jehovah's Witnesses should be. You can be sure that Russell's quote about organizations would be explained away as the ideas of a man who did not have the "new light" about God's organization back in the day. But Jehovah has not left his servants without guidance. That is why the WTS came into existence: to guide and direct God's people during these dangerous end times. At least, that is what the WTS wants its adherents to believe.

Quendi

44

When and how did the GB start cracking down on the dubs social life?

by highdose in

jw
friends

i can remember when i was first assimilated, the jw's did alot together, they went to the park together, they had picnics, days out together.. .

somehow by the 90's this had stopped.

did i miss somthing?

Quendi

The first congregation I associated with in Boulder, Colorado was one with many young families. So there were a lot of kids to look after. Sometimes the elders would arrange for a day picnic that featured games and such which everyone enjoyed. Often, however, it was left up to individuals to have gatherings and invite whomever they pleased. I would occasionally take a group of kids on hikes in Rocky Mountain National Park which was relatively close. The kids loved it; and their parents would often tell me how much they appreciated having a day to themselves without having the kids around!

Blondie, thanks for the excerpts you posted. But I have to say that I couldn't read all the material. That is because the more I read, the angrier I got. It's funny how that works. When I was a faithful Witness, I saw such direction as evidence that Jehovah and his organization were looking out for our best interests and spiritual welfare. Now I see them only as clever and insidious manipulations by cult leaders determined to control every aspect of others' lives.

Quendi

35

Those sweltering assemblies!

by highdose in

jw
friends

anyone from the uk remember the assemblies at twickenham?

cytrstal place?

gillingham?.

Quendi

As far as I'm concerned the biggest problem with any mass meeting--district convention, circuit assembly, and special assembly day--is that they are held in facilities that were not designed to hold large numbers of people for extended periods of time. Even when air conditioning is available, the seats become quite uncomfortable after more than three hours of sitting in them unless one brings his own cushions, and even then you get tired and worn out at the end of a seven- or eight-hour day.

In the thirty years I attended district conventions, only once did I ever have to sit out in the hot sun all day. That was in 2000 when the dc was held in Denver's Mile High Stadium. There was a nice indoor facility available, but the WTS refused to hold the convention there because the management wanted to have all the restaurants and refreshment stands open for the Witnesses to use. Of course, the WTS was in its bring-your-own-food arrangement and wouldn't hear of any alternative to it, even if that alternative would actually have been much more convenient for the convention delegates.

After the 2000 debacle, the conventions were moved to a minor league hockey arena in Loveland, Colorado. The seats were hard, plastic, and a real torture to sit in after two hours or so. Then I got disfellowshipped and haven't attended any big meeting since then. I'm sure the WTS is well aware of the pain and discomfort it puts the rank-and-file through but it doesn't give a damn. What is more important to its leaders is to herd people into these inadequate and uncomfortable facilities so that they can be indoctrinated with the latest schlock. If people suffer back pain, heat stroke, or even death, well, that's the "sacrifice" they should be glad to make to be in the "spiritual paradise".

I used to plan my summer around the timing of the district convention. Since Colorado summers are somewhat brief, although very enjoyable, many Witnesses always wanted the convention to be held early so that we could have the rest of the summer to enjoy the incredible scenery and recreational opportunities that exist here. Now that I am in the free and clear, I can enjoy the summer even more; but I still feel sorrow and pity for those Witnesses who feel compelled to attend the summer district conventions. And I feel the same way about the useless circuit assemblies and special assembly days as well. I found them to be as tasteless as the summer district conventions.

Quendi

48

No need to know Hebrew and Greek for Bible Translation, according to the Watchtower's Branch Organization Manual revised 2003

by dgp in

i copied this from page 153 of the branch organization manual, effective: december 15, 1977, revised: february 2003. .

it is not necessary for bible translators to know.

by using this file, such scriptures will be ren-.

Quendi

These directions shouldn't surprise anybody. While the original New World Translation was rendered from the ancient biblical languages, all editions in different contemporary languages never were. They were simply translations of the English-language NWT into some other language. As such, they are not true translations. They are versions and so cannot and should not be referenced by anyone who wants to know what the original language texts actually say.

When I first started reading WTS publications more than forty years ago, I noticed that they frequently cited and quoted many different Bible translations. The New World Translation was available then, but the WTS encouraged Witnesses to freely read, consult, quote, and reference other Bible translations. I thought that was a wonderful way to introduce people to the Word of God and to keep their interest in it fresh. But as the years went by I saw that other Bible translations were referred to less and less. Nowadays, they are hardly ever referenced.

As others have noted, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has gotten away from the Bible in many ways. It is a publishing concern. Yes, it has produced the NWT and is the sole distributor of Stephen Byington's The Bilble in Living English and Benjamin Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott. The NWT itself is available in many different languages now. But the Society has had few real scholars assist it in its Bible translating work. Furthermore, it has now decided that other translations should not be read or consulted. Witnesses are to be directed only to the NWT, a translation that is not without its own problems and errors. To me this directive is just one more evidence of the mind-control this cult seeks to exert upon its followers. Thanks, dgb, for sharing this with us.

Quendi

19

Happy Solstice !

by talesin in

jw
friends

a day of celebration -- happy solstice to all ,,, especially any pagan/wicca on the board!.

http://www.nectareal.com/pagan-wicca-summer-solstice-is-here/.

i miss my friends who have moved away,,, no one to celebrate with anymore.

Quendi

@Talesin: I'm glad I could be of help. Wikipedia has a long article about Midsummer's Day (24 June) celebrations that may give you some ideas about how you might want to create your own. Today, 23 June, is Midsummer's Eve, and that also figured most prominently in ancient ritual and ceremony. The Wikipedia article touches on that as well. Point your browser here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsummer .

@Moshe: The June issue of National Geographic has a wonderful story about Göbekli Tepe that I'm sure you would find interesting if you haven't already read it. There are some fantastic accompanying photographs with the story as well. And yes, phallic fixation is hardly a modern phenomenon, is it? Our ancestors were preoccupied with it as well.

Happy Solstice, all! By the way, for those who care about such things, Midyear's Day is also fast approaching. That falls on 2 July every year. While it doesn't get the attention that Midsummer and Midwinter receive, I think it also is worth noting.

Quendi

14

Hypocricy of JW stance on shunning those disfellowshipped from the congregation?

by corpusdei in

i was doing some research on an tangentally related topic when i came across this gem, from the 7/1/1986 watchtower, in a paragraph discussing the cost of integrity:.

certainly when a person becomes a christian witness of jehovah, he suddenly finds out who are his true friends.

some will perhaps shun or boycott him because he has abandoned his former religion, even though they themselves do not practice any religion properly.

Quendi

@WontLeave:

I completely agree with your belief that God has no organization; and since he has none the very existence of the WTS and the congregations it has formed is pointless. It is indeed up to the individual to live a life that will be pleasing to him. Christ showed us the way by his life and words. A friend of mine reminded me of an exchange between Mahatma Gandhi, no friend of Christianity but a lover of Christ, and Lord Mountbatten. Mountbatten asked the Mahatma what he thought the solution to the problem that lay between India and Britain was. Gandhi told him that if both countries followed the principles set down by Christ in the Sermon on the Mount, not only would their international dispute be solved, but so would problems throughout the world.

The WTS has frequently cited this exchange as proof of the validity of Jesus' teachings. Too bad that it doesn't follow those teachings. The disfellowshipping arrangement is just one of a multitude of things the Society should be called to account on. It has gone far beyond what is written numerous times, but the rank-and-file are so cowed by the heavy-handed way the organization wields its authority that they don't have the backbone to stand up for themselves anymore. I am glad that I am out and putting ever-widening distance between me and this cult.

Quendi

14

Hypocricy of JW stance on shunning those disfellowshipped from the congregation?

by corpusdei in

i was doing some research on an tangentally related topic when i came across this gem, from the 7/1/1986 watchtower, in a paragraph discussing the cost of integrity:.

certainly when a person becomes a christian witness of jehovah, he suddenly finds out who are his true friends.

some will perhaps shun or boycott him because he has abandoned his former religion, even though they themselves do not practice any religion properly.

Quendi

And the "appointed shepherds" rarely take the initiative to seek the "lost sheep" who is disfellowshipped. I know from personal experience. Whenever I had contact with the "sheperds" of the congregation it was because I initiated it. Only once in the more than four years I spent seeking reinstatement did they ever take the initiative to visit me, and that visit was anything but refreshing, upbuilding, or loving. They had a script which they followed to the letter and when they had finished reciting their lines they took their leave.

WontLeave is correct to say that Jehovah's Witnesses look upon the WTS as God's own mouthpiece. But I would say that even those who 'violate God's standards' could and should be treated better. Israel certainly violated God's standards numerous times, yet Jehovah again and again appealed to their better nature and begged them to return to Him. I don't see the WTS or its officers ever taking that stance. Nor do they have the attitude the father held in the story of the Prodigal Son. He lovingly and warmly welcomed his son home even before the boy had crossed the threshold and jubilantly celebrated his return with a feast, music concert, and dancing. What is the WTS' stance on the disfellowshipped? They should be shunned even if they are making every effort to come back. And when and if they are reinstated, the congregation cannot signal its joy by applauding when the announcement is read.

No, WontLeave, this organization is no more God's organization than I am a Martian. Since it violates God's standards itself, it is in no position to chastise others who may do so. That is the hypocrisy that is at the base of the whole disfellowshipping arrangement. The pot is calling the kettle black. The Society can see the splinter in others' eyes, but not the rafter in its own. But 'its end shall be according to its works'. For me and countless others, that end can't come soon enough.

Quendi

27

JW's are so hot on their views being respected but they do not respect anyone elses!

by highdose in

jw's face a tide of "no"s and "not interested"s everytime they go banging on the doors, surely it would have occurred to them by now that the vast majority of the public don't want to know and don't want them at their doors.

but do they acknowledge or listen to this?

regardless of wether they have priviously been told not to call or not still they come.. they claim that its because jesus has comanded them to do so.

Quendi

Hello highdose:

I understand your frustration with Witnesses who continue to call on your home when you have expressly told them not to. May I suggest that you now call the local congregations in your area and state your wishes? You may have to call several and leave a voice message, but at least you will be directly contacting those who can do something about this. Good times to call would be on Sundays, as well as Tuesday and Thursday nights, the normal meeting times when you know the Hall will be occupied. And as for how to react when Witnesses continue to call on you, I would say that the best way is to politely, kindly, but firmly let them know that you were once one of Jehovah's Witnesses but have left the organization with no desire to return. They will probably view you as an "apostate" and word will spread very quickly that your home is to be avoided at all costs!

As for a scripture that discusses the methodology of the first century Christians, Acts 5:42 says that after the apostles had been commanded by the Sanhedrin to stop their preaching, their reaction was: "And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus." So the apostles and other Chrisitans engaged in the house-to-house ministry. It is difficult to imagine them doing so unless they had seen Jesus do this himself. And in fact, he gave them explicit orders to do so at Matthew 10:11-13, telling them to search out "deserving" people in any city they entered. They did so by contacting individual households.

The Gospel account says: " 'Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. When you are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the house is deserving, let the peach you wish it come upon it, but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you.' "

As I have posted above, I think it is very important that we do not let our own dislike of the organization cause us to act in a way that only makes us look bad. True, the calls Jehovah's Witnesses make on their neighbors are unwanted and unwelcomed by many. Nevertheless, we want to give them the benefit of the doubt and treat them with decency and respect. We also don't want to tar them all with the same brush, viewing them as stupid, ignorant, fanatic, apathetic, etc. They already do that to those of us who have left their organization, thinking of us as immoral, indecent, mentally diseased, and other derogatory terms. Let's not stoop to their level if we can help it.

Quendi