Posts by Quendi

29

That Magical Number: 2,520

by Quendi in

i wanted to relate this experience i had on sunday while renewing ties with an old friend.

we argued about the meaning of daniel 4 and nebuchadnezzar's "tree dream".

my friend had insisted this dream told the reader the length of the gentile times.

I can only hope that my friend Mark will think long and hard about the issues we discussed on Sunday. With respect to the method I used to make my points, you are right. The use of questions can accomplish much. Oftentimes, by questioning other parties and putting the burden of proof on them, they begin to see how untenable their position is. I actually learned to do this when I attended the Pioneer Service School. The instructors pointed out that this was something Jesus Christ himself frequently did It also enabled me to stay calm and focused. Mark, on the other hand, found that there were times it was difficult to maintain his equilibrium. I like to think this was because for the first time he was taking a focused look at key WTS teachings.

The two largest benefits I got from my years as a Witness were attending the Pioneer Service School and regular participation in the Theocratic Ministry School. The training I received has served me well down through the years, and my discussion with Mark was another occasion on which it gave me a crucial advantage.

Quendi

47

My public talk on sunday

by mankkeli in

jw
friends

i am currently preparing for the public talk on sunday and as i was looking through the outline some these thoughts just keep popping up my mind that in the face of several allegations and numerous scandal, wbts has not stopped claiming to be god's organisation, i am wondering if they will ever realise that their strategies are no longer appealing to the general public.

regrettably, they keep on publishing and printing using victims of mind control hazards to the detriment of over 7 million rank and file members and spiritual illiterates in the society.

i keep on pondering on how long this malicious activity would continue.

Quendi

@wannabefree:

LOL at your remark! Thanks a lot. I'm sure my "lack of humility" was a major reason I never progressed in the organization. But while they didn't want to appoint me as a servant, they were only too happy to let me pioneer. I used to think that it was funny how I was good enough to be the one and not the other when supposedly it was the same holy spirit being used to make the recommendations and appointments.

Another thing that I used to ponder over was how, after decades of TMS training, so many men were such rotten speakers. We've all endured boring, dull, and colorless talks from the platform. But it never ceased to amaze me that in all the years I was in the organization, I never saw much progress overall by men who had the privilege of giving a public talk or handle other parts on the platform. Like I said, looking back on it, I'm glad that all I ever did was Bible readings and last student talks (first #5 and later #4). I never had to mix and then serve the Kool-Aid, and for that I'll always be grateful.

Quendi

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Quendi

As some of you know by now, I spent Sunday, 7 August, renewing ties with a dear friend. We're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and I am not. We got into some very spirited discussions on different Bible topics and one of them was the value of the New World Translation itself. My friend was rather surprised that I was still using it in light of my telling him I had no intention of returning to the organization.

"Well, you know the New World Translation was produced by real Bible scholars," he said. "Oh, which scholars?" I asked. "Well, Frederick Franz, for one. That man was a genius!" "Well, he may have been a genius," I replied, "but he was no Bible languages scholar. That much is certain. He studied koine Greek for only two years and never learned Hebrew or Aramaic. He was no more a language scholar than you and I are."

I saw this exchange as one more example of how the WTS has lied about or obscured its past. In the case of the New World Translation, this was easy to do since it has consistently refused to reveal the names of the translation committee. Thus, it would be easy to allow the rank and file to believe that Franz was an accredited and recognized expert on biblical languages even when he was no such thing.

I told my friend that I used ten different Bible translations in my reading and studying now. The WTS does not want rank and file Witnesses to do so. When he countered with the fact that different translations are quoted or cited in the publications I told him that was generally not true of the Watchtower study articles or other pieces in the study versions of the magazine. A different Bible version might be occasionally referenced, but mainly the WTS stuck to the New World Translation to enforce its own orthodoxy. But to me, the most interesting point of all this was the belief that Fred Franz was a first-class Bible scholar.

Quendi

29

That Magical Number: 2,520

by Quendi in

i wanted to relate this experience i had on sunday while renewing ties with an old friend.

we argued about the meaning of daniel 4 and nebuchadnezzar's "tree dream".

my friend had insisted this dream told the reader the length of the gentile times.

Quendi

I wanted to relate this experience I had on Sunday while renewing ties with an old friend. We argued about the meaning of Daniel 4 and Nebuchadnezzar's "tree dream". My friend had insisted this dream told the reader the length of the Gentile Times. I then asked him a simple question. "Mark, can you tell me where the number 2,520 appears in this account? You know Daniel mentions some very specific numbers in his writing: 1,290; 1,335; and 2,300. Where will you find 2,520?" To his utter embarrassment, my friend could not do so.

He then insisted, "I know it's in the Bible!" "Really," I answered, "Where? Name me one place in Scripture you can find this number." He looked quite frustrated as he thought very hard of where the number might occur. Of course, I know the WTS uses Revelation's equaling the "time, times, and half a time" to 1,260 days and it is on that basis it calculates the length of the "seven times" of Daniel 4. If Mark had gone there, I had an entire battery of arguments ready to shoot that down. But he never made that connection.

It then hit me that here was a perfect example of the cult's mind control. An assertion is made, usually without any kind of proof or corroboration, and the follower believes it entirely without doing any kind of research or checking for himself. Seeing my friend struggle with a very simple question made me grateful that I had broken free. Comment is certainly invited.

Quendi

47

My public talk on sunday

by mankkeli in

jw
friends

i am currently preparing for the public talk on sunday and as i was looking through the outline some these thoughts just keep popping up my mind that in the face of several allegations and numerous scandal, wbts has not stopped claiming to be god's organisation, i am wondering if they will ever realise that their strategies are no longer appealing to the general public.

regrettably, they keep on publishing and printing using victims of mind control hazards to the detriment of over 7 million rank and file members and spiritual illiterates in the society.

i keep on pondering on how long this malicious activity would continue.

Quendi

I never gave a Public Talk because I was never appointed an elder or ministerial servant. The ironic thing about this was regardless of the congregation in which I served, I was by far and away the best speaker they would have. I could run circles around any of the others. In fact, I had TMS overseers approach me for advice! I also remember helping a young ministerial servant put together his very first public talk. I know the irony of my situation was not lost on the elders, but none ever really wanted to recommend me, and I was content with the status quo. I was simply not a "company man", so I was never going to be recommended and appointed. Reading the experiences in this thread, I see how lucky I was.

Quendi

19

Convention talks on education?

by Quandry in

yikes...at work next week i will be spending an entire day in a room with a young jw woman.

(i work at an elementary school and we will be doing photocopying and other assorted things).

this young woman is a gung-ho witness but she is going to be going to college.

Quendi

@Pistoff:

You make a valid point about how higher education is discussed from the platform, be that in a local congregation or at an international assembly. The WTS hostility toward it is on open display. I was making reference to what one can find in printed material, but I certainly did not make that clear. The criticism is toned down there, particularly when some expert is to be interviewed on a particular point. The Awake! articles on evolution that have appeared down through the years illustrate that very well. The correspondent talked to people like Michael Behe of Lehigh University as well as Witnesses who were involved in serious research at the Max Planck Institute. So thank you for giving me the chance to clarify my remarks as well as your own thoughts on this topic.

@Sulla:

You're right to say that a review of an elder's or ministerial servant's qualifications would not be something to look forward to. In some congregations, that would lead to automatic deletion. But I know of several congregations in the Boulder, Colorado area where elders held master's degrees and doctorates. In situations like those, I very much doubt an elder who allowed his children to attend college would be deleted. Indeed, he might not even have to face the dreaded review.

As for the dumbing down of the literature we are now seeing, I don't doubt this is a tacit acknowledgment of the brain drain that is occurring in the organization, particularly in Europe and North America. If you cannot recruit men with a solid educational background to be elders and ministerial servants, then that will affect operational procedures. I agree that running a congregation should not be that difficult. However, considering how elders also function as star chamber jurists and are expected to control different aspects of people's personal lives and decisions, the organization may well have seen fit to simplify the language in which its hundreds of rules and directives are given.

Quendi

22

Herbert W. Armstrong

by Band on the Run in

his stylized face keeps staring at me from an ad, asking if i want more information.

i know he ran a high control religion that had many defectors as the same time as many witnesses defected.

what was his game?.

Quendi

One curious fact about HWA's church was that the late Bobby Fisher, former world chess champion, was a member. And yes, the culture and tactics used by Armstrong sound all too familiar to this former Witness. Now that the movement has splintered into separate camps, one wonders what will happen next. Its history also shows that even people of high intelligence can be swept up into a cult if they feel it is meeting their emotional needs. Does anyone know how many members this church claimed at its height? And does anyone think the WTS will suffer a similar fate?

Quendi

13

Letter Regarding Discussing Scriptural Matters With Disfellowshipped Ones

by Bangalore in

.

letter regarding discussing scriptural matters with disfellowshipped ones.. .

bangalore.

Quendi

The ENTIRE disfellowshipping process the WTS uses has absolutely NO scriptural foundation. Where are its star chamber proceedings outlined in the Bible? Where are we told to not say a greeting to anyone other than a real apostate? That is the thrust of 2 John 9-11. Where is it commanded that a person should be shunned even if he attends the meetings? And far from remaining in stoic silence when a sinner repents, Jesus indicated there should be expressions of great rejoicing. That is clearly seen in the parable of the Prodigal Son.

Those who defend WTS teaching on disfellowshipping and shunning are perpetuating a gross perversion of the Scriptures and a great injustice besides. Those who serve on judicial committees are doing the same. How many lives have been ruined by this cult's twisting of the Scriptures in this regard? As for the letter which Bangalore shared with us, I agree with punkofnice that it is simply a brushoff from an organization too arrogant to seriously examine its policies and the effects they have on others.

Quendi

41

A Sincere Questions for Current/Former WTBTS Elders/Pioneers...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

i would like to know something, if you will indulge me, please - thank you!

to what extent did you, as a jw... read/know the contents of the bible?

Quendi

As a pioneer, I was a very serious student of the Bible as SIAM says he was. I knew it, backwards and forwards. I had a friend who introduced me to other Bible scholars and their works. Reading them showed me just how superficial the WTS is in its approach to Bible reading and study. As SIAM says, once I started letting the Bible speak for itself, I emerged with a completely different understanding of what it says.

Quendi

77

Sept.15th WT - Submit to the WT Society or Jehovah Will Not Know You

by flipper in

jw
friends

this was some of the most blatant , aggressive , controlling information i've seen in awhile in the " witness only " version of the wt.

of course, it's always blatant, but the manner that was used in this article was so authoritative and demanding - it's apparent the wt society is losing members and they are amping up the control tactics to keep members trapped.

the article in discussion is on pg.

Quendi

Thanks, as always, flipper, for sharing this with the board. As others have stated, I can no longer read WTS material. It makes me sick to my stomach, and I am ashamed that I was ever associated with this disgusting cult.

Yesterday, I visited an old friend whom I had not seen since I was disfellowshipped. It turns out he is disfellowshipped now as well. But he is making strenuous efforts to get reinstated. Well, that is his choice and I respect it. But I was deeply saddened to hear this man, who is quite intelligent, spout the WTS line in answer to my challenges and questions. He cited very few scriptures, and had no answers for my using the Bible to disprove 1914, the existence of a "faithful and discreet slave class", and other Witness doctrines.

Then he said something that summed it all up for me. "Your problem, Raymond, is that you're too arrogant and prideful. That's why you can't get reinstated. You reject the 'faithful and discreet slave'. You don't believe that God has an organization." Hearing my friend say this made me all the happier that I have left this cult. It strengthened my resolve to never return. Now comes this Watchtower study article which confirms that the WTS is a cult with no more concern for the welfare of the rank and file than the Man in the Moon would have.

You take a stand for what you know is right, and you're called "apostate", "prideful", "mentally diseased", "arrogant", and so forth. My friend called me "apostate" until I reminded him of the real definition of the word. He then realized that he had accepted the WTS belief on what apostasy was, and not the dictionary's. But seeing the mental paralysis the WTS has inflicted on its followers, I marvel I got out at all.

Quendi