Posts by Quendi

44

Those who WERE or ARE Elders (Re: Molestation Coverup)

by dontplaceliterature in

i'd like to hear from those who are currently elders or were formerly elders on your honest feelings about the charges brought against the society and their general policy in handling these matters.

do you think that the society handles child abuse accusations fairly?

or, do you think their policy is abusive?

Quendi

@ Lurker555: You hit the nail on the head when you said that elders have no business judging cases. The entire judicial committee arrangement is unscriptural. Neither Jesus Christ nor the apostle Paul ever indicated or outlined this procedure. Instead, they indicated that the whole congregation was to be involved in hearing about wrongdoing and that all--including women--were to have a say about the disposal of any case. Reinstatement was to be handled the same way.

I mean no offense to those posters to this thread who are or have been elders and have served on these star chambers. You did so because you thought you were doing the right thing, but you should have nothing to do with this from now on. Refuse to serve on any judicial committee no matter what the problem being looked into is. This arrangement has harmed tens of thousands since its inception and that alone is evidence enough that holy spirit was never, is not now, nor ever will be involved with it. In fact, only one-third of those who are disfellowshipped ever return to the organization. What does that fruitage say about whether this arrangement has Jehovah's blessing and sanction? Your support of it, even tacitly, is condoning evil, not good.

Quendi

36

Mental Illness & Suicide In the Organization

by What Now? in

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this topic has been discussed before ... i just wanted to put my two cents in.. i will start off by saying that of course mental illness exists outside of the organization.

Quendi

00DAD, you have a PM.

Quendi

22

Watchtower Talk Removed From YouTube As "Shocking And Disgusting Content"

by DT in

jw
friends

there was a youtube video that contained an excerpt of ciro aulicino's talk "you will be with me in paradise".

at some point it was removed by youtube.

it now shows the message, "this video has been removed as a violation of youtube's policy on shocking and disgusting content.".

Quendi

bookmark

24

I'd hate to be a JW going out in service with all the bad press they're getting right now.

by I quit! in

jw
friends

Quendi

Don't forget one other important news item that is very big in the American media right now: the Jerry Sandusky trial now going on in Pennsylvania. That also involves an accused pedophile and more than ten victims. The Conti verdict can't hold a candle up to the Sandusky trial. The one happened in Oakland, California. The other at one of this country's best known universities. The former involved people nobody had ever heard of. The latter ended the careers of a university president, athletic director, two administrators, and the winningest football coach in American history. So the media sharks are all circling the Centre County Courthouse in western Pennsylvania reporting on that trial 24/7 whereas the Conti case got only scant attention at best.

The WTS got lucky with the circumstances in the Conti case. Many of us didn't even know a trial was going on in Oakland until the verdict and judgments were announced. While the story eventually did get picked up by major media outlets, the Sandusky trial has grabbed the lion's share of attention about pedophiles. Seeing that the Conti case drew little initial attention in this country, it is no wonder that foreign media have virtually ignored it as well. How many of them are covering the Sandusky trial, for example?

So I doubt that JWs are going to find the Conti case an issue or embarrassment as they go about their canvassing work. Those few householders who do know something probably don't know enough to really engage any Witness in an informative and constructive conversation. If any ask, most Witnesses can feign ignorance of the entire thing and go about their business as usual. I wouldn't be surprised if they won't be instructed to do so by those field service leaders who would even care to discuss it.

Quendi

23

How do you think the W.T.S will spin the Candace Conti case to the R&F???

by karter in

the cats well and truly out of the bag and even the r&f are all going to know about it soon.. .

will they blame her?.

blame satan?.

Quendi

The WTS will throw its veil of silence over this affair and try to wish it away into the cornfield. Don't expect anything about the case to be printed in any of the organization's official organs nor will it be mentioned from the speaker's platform. Their modus operandi for decades has been to use silence and secrecy to smother negative developments. It has worked very well in the past and so they will assume they should employ the same tactic now.

There is a big difference, however, which might upset WTS calculations: the Internet. People no longer depend on hard copy newspaper, magazines, and pamphlets for information. They are also turning less and less to telvised news programs. The Internet has emerged as the preferred news source for many, especially the younger generation. The Internet is something the WTS has feared and fought against since it burst on the scene nearly twenty years ago and even today the Society has a love/hate relationship with the medium. They have absolutely no control over it and their small presence in cyberspace is more than dwarfed by others, including their opposers, who can easily drown out the WTS voice.

If this religion ever implodes, the Internet will have played a major role in its demise. Early reactions in places like Facebook show that Witnesses are trying to push back vigorously against the negative publicity this story has already generated. They are also saying all the things others have cited in earlier posts on this thread. It remains to be seen if the pushback efforts of individual Witnesses will retard the mushrooming opposition this story will generate, but I think more than anything individual Witnesses are taking to the Internet to close ranks with other devout Witnesses. They may well succeed in that if these early reactions are any indication.

I had hoped that any pushback would be directed against the WTS itself as sincere Witnesses demanded an accounting from the Governing Body about the policies that led to the verdict and awards in California. My hopes of that happening are fading, but there might still be a chance that if and as other similar cases come to light their cumulative effect will bring this cult and its leaders to their knees. I want to see a "Watchtower Spring" and while I think winter still reigns, I will continue to hope that eventually the right will prevail.

Quendi

63

What Some Loyal JW's Are Saying About The Oakland Case.

by Bangalore in

jw
friends

form the pro-jw site jwtalk.

this is such a ronald mcdonald court case.

i can't believe what i am reading.. lie: "the lawsuit alleged that watchtower had a policy that instructed elders in its jehovah's witnesses congregations to keep reports of child sex abusers within the religious group secret to avoid lawsuits.".

Quendi

I'm afraid that many loyal Witnesses won't bother to learn the facts of this case. Their "cognitive dissonance" makes them incapable of objective reasoning. I have read elsewhere that Satan is as important to the JW religion as Jehovah himself is. This case illustrates just how sad and true that observation is. Loyal Witnesses don't want to blame their warped and sociopathic organization for any of this or hold it accountable for the gross errors it has made. No indeed! Instead, Satan is made the bogeyman and it is his machinations that have produced this deplorable situation. Then these people sit on their hands and wait for Jehovah to clear his name of reproach by restoring the reputation of the WTS. This once again shows that in the Witness mind, the WTS and Jehovah are one and the same.

I had hopes when this story broke that we'd see the first buds of a "Watchtower Spring" opening, that many rank-and-file Witnesses would come to their senses and start challenging the WTS and its corrupt and self-serving Governing Body. But if these remarks are an indication of the mindset of the majority, it would seem that we are still deep in a winter of discontent. Maybe the hoped-for spring is coming, but if so it may be a long way off yet.

Quendi

26

Interesting Commentary in New Statesman Article About Candace Conti

by DT in

here is the article http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/world-affairs/2012/06/secrets-and-lies-have-no-place-when-dealing-child-abuse.

here are some quotes.. "jim mccabe, a lawyer for the jehovah's witness congregation, said that they plan to appeal the decision, contending that kendrick was just a member of the north fremont congregation, not a leader or pastor.

he said: "this is a tragic case where a member of a religious group has brought liability on the group for actions he alone may have taken."".

Quendi

As I have posted elsewhere, the argument for privilege is completely without merit. Such privilege exists if and only if absolute confidentiality is maintained. That is never the case in a judicial committee action. Notes are taken and records are created and placed in the congregation's files. Furthermore, the WTS itself is involved since copies of those records are oftentimes shared between it and the congregation concerned. That was certainly true in the Conti case as the WTS lawyer knows full well. I would advise her legal team to make that very argument in the appeal, telling the appellate court that since no confidentiality was ever kept in her case, the argument for privilege cannot be sustained and should be rejected on its face.

Another argument I would use in the Conti case is that since Kendrick had also been convicted of a second offense, he was then forced to register as a sex offender in the state of California. These registrations are a matter of public record, so no confidentiality can be extended in pedophile cases since none legally exists in the first place. As a matter of fact, California has had a sex offender registration program since 1947. The federal government stepped it with its own statutes in 1994, and again in 1996 which also required all states to mandate sex offender registration. I understand that Ms. Conti was suffering at the hands of this abuser while the federal statutes were in force.

So that means there is no legal basis for confidentiality and secrecy regarding the presence of pedophiles in any community--be it a religious or secular one. The congregation elders and the WTS both are guilty of serious violations of state and federal law and that should be made clear when the case is appealed. There can be no legal or moral justification for the actions of either the elders or the WTS in the Conti case. These facts, combined with the breach of confidentiality and subsequent loss of privilege, should put paid any reason to overturn the lower court's decision. I'll be very much surprised if the WTS emerges unscathed either legally or monetarily, and that's the way it should be. The old Bible adage about sowing to the wind and reaping the whirlwind is about to come true in this case, and I'll be very pleased to see justice being served.

Quendi

26

The light keeps diminishing

by Slidin Fast in

today's wt says it all.

read this, it accurately portrays the last 50 years of fading light from the saddest bunch of con-men in history.. 15 to answer, imagine that you are reading a book by the light of a 100-watt bulb, but then the bulb fails.

since you are left in the dark, you immedi- ately notice what happened and replace the burned-out bulb with a new one.

Quendi

I see the question another way. This is a tacit admission on the part of the WTS that a majority of Witnesses are losing interest in and enthusiasm for not just the canvassing work, but the entire spectrum of life as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's so easy to blame "Satan" for this when perhaps the finger should be pointed at "that ol' debbil doubt" as the culprit. But that would mean saying that doubts are arising exactly because more people are believing that the WTS is a false prophet. So rather than discuss this rationally, flawed logic is put in the place of reasoned discourse and a real interchange of thoughts. Don't you get the feeling that there is a rising sense of despair, frustration and futility among the Governing Body? The years are slipping away but they're no closer to the end of the world than they were when they began. And now their followers are doing less and less despite exhortations to do more and more.

Quendi

15

The Candace Conti Case Is Now In The New York Times!

by DT in

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/18/us/28-million-awarded-in-jehovahs-witnesses-abuse-case.html?_r=1.

Quendi

While we can all be happy that major media organs are finally carrying this story, we must not forget or minimize the enormous power the organization has over its rank-and-file members. What I want most out of this coverage is a "Watchtower Spring". I am not entirely content with the exposure of the Society's complicity and wrongdoing in this case. What I hope happens is the fact that the jury found the WTS acted with malice and that is why the huge damages were awarded will make some wake up. If the more thoughtful among ordinary Witnesses can discern this vital fact, that might trigger the kind of questioning and challenging that will shake the organization to its foundation.

I don't want to forget that this cult has done enormous harm to countless tens of thousands by its callous and unchristian behavior and attitude. Those crimes cry out for atonement. My hope is that there will be those in the organization, including some of its higher ranking officers, who will demand an accounting and if none is forthcoming will lead an exodus out of its control. If enough elders, circuit overseers, district overseers and key branch and Bethel personnel act, then the Governing Body will understand that they have come to the end of the line.

I've been hoping for some kind of palace rebellion to topple the WTS. Such things have happened before, the "Arab Spring" being the most recent example of this. But considering the deep control the organization exercises over its followers, I wonder if a rebellion would ever begin in the lowest ranks and then spread upward. But if enough conscientious men in positions of responsibility look at this media coverage and start talking directly to the Governing Body, that might spark the movement that will end this cult once and for all.

Considering what is at stake, I can only hope. Certainly circuit and district overseers as well as other upper echelon personnel would have much to lose in a material way if the WTS came tumbling down. Where would they go? How could they make a living once they had been cut loose? Those questions alone may well make them decide to do nothing but try to ride out this latest storm. But maybe, just maybe, there are enough men of character and integrity still serving who will say enough is enough and spearhead the revolt.

Quendi

39

The UK media disgusts me

by cedars in

jw
friends

we're at least 48 hours into the aftermath of the groundbreaking candace conti verdict, and as i wake up this morning i notice the news wires in america are alive with the story.

almost every major news website is running the article.

i notice there is also talk of a tv interview being broadcast.. however, when i search uk websites for "candace conti" i get this.... .

Quendi

@ NewChapter: This ruling should not have any effect on advisor/penitent privilege in the United States. A priest who hears someone confess to the sin of pedophilia or a spiritual advisor who does so in that capacity will not be under obligation or coercion to break either the seal of the confessional or other privileged communication so long as the confidence is kept. What makes the WTS different is that a judicial committee hearing is not confidential. A record is made of the meeting and many times the information is forwarded on either in written or spoken form to WTS world headquarters or a branch office. When that is done, the confidentiality of the communication has been nullified and no privilege can be invoked.

So a priest cannot be forced to reveal what he heard in a confessional. The same holds true for a spiritual advisor or a lawyer defending his client. Those communications are privileged and must be kept confidential. However, the Conti case did not involve something that was actually secret. Her assailant was a registered sex offender under the laws of the state of California and that registration was a matter of public record. So there was no reason for either the elders or the WTS not to inform the congregation of this pedophile's presence so that people could take steps to protect themselves and their loved ones.

It will be interesting to see what changes, if any, the WTS will make. As far as I'm concerned, the entire judicial committee setup is unscriptural and should be completely abolished. There is no mention of anything like this in the New Testament. When serious wrongs were committed, the wrongdoer had to face the entire congregation for reproof, not a select few, and the meeting was held in the open and not in secret. It is clear that the WTS has grossly violated the letter and spirit of what the New Testament teaches. Is it any wonder that this matter has boomeranged on them with what I hope are devastating effects?

Quendi