Posts by Larsguy

20

Comprehensive list of WATCHTOWER DATES

by JanH in

jw
friends

abandoned in 1930. .

Larsguy

You do great work Jan!!!

I found everything I needed online!!!!!!!! Including all 7 volumes of SIS. Per your reference I found this statement I had known about only it's discussed in more detail somewhere, I don't know:

"The 70 jubilees, reckoned as 50 years each, expire October, 1925." That's SiS7 pp. 128 of your reference.

But NEWS to me was that this jubilee cycle, indeed, had been calculated end originally in 1875!!! This is of particular interest to me since this Great Jubilee focus in the early years completely lost it's reference in JW doctrine it would seem after 1925!! Somehow they figured 50 jubilees at 2500 years at some point and 70 jubilees at a rounded of 3500 years but still managed to be 49-50 years apart in their calculations of 1875 and 1925 which dates are 50 years apart.

So this was an eye-opener to me how how complex and manipulative they made their dates work in figuring out all the various chronologies, implied or otherwise.

But of note, I think their observations an instincts were good, but they just had the wrong dating. I think all those applications should work out in some way if the Bible is true; all the sabbaths, 40-year periods cycles, etc.

Of note, therefore, a new date comes into focus and that is 1954. That's 40 years after 1914 when you count a generation as 40 years, which is Biblically appropriate, of course.

I'm not sure how applicable it is, but 1947 is a critical chronology date in the Bible because it is the beginning of the 50th jubilee from 455BCE, more importantly a jubilee we can date from 36CE without any objection. That's the year the Jews returned from exile officially. 1954 is 7 years later. So you have a 7-year period connected with a jubilee in 1947 plus 40 years past 1914. So 1954 might have been a specific prophetic cutoff year for something Biblical. This does not bar a double-fulfillment for a "generation" to be 80 years by 1994 though.

The reason why is because everything in scripture can be fulfilled by 1954, one generation after 1914 including the "great tribulation" which was the Holocaust, the preaching of the good news world wide, meaning by one international organization before the "end"; NH Knorr after WWII did a round-the-world lecture tour in 1946 I believe. The "end" by some is considered the "end of the gentile times" which meant when Israel took over Palestine again which occurred in 1947. And, of course, the "sign of the son of man" began to appear to certain anointed ones after early 1950. So this opens the interpretation of the generation of 40 years as being significant.

Also what I've focussed on, since your article, Jan, is that there might be some significance to the year Jerusalem fell in relation to Jesus' death which might have some modern-day parallels. But the true date for the fall of Jerusalem could be as late as 73CE based upon the conflict in scripture for the death of Herod Agrippa which is 4 years. It has always been suggested, therefore, that 3 years were stolen from the infamous Caligula and added to the reign of Flavius who commissioned Josephus to write the history of the Jews. 73CE is 40 years after 33CE when Jesus died. I'm wondering now what happened significantly in 1954 within the oganization that would parallel with the destruction of Jerusalem in a spiritual sense?

Anyway, as you can see, your article has inspired some new interest in the chronology arena for me and I think you!!! You couldn't tell from the new witness doctrine how intensely focussed and involved they were into chronology, even getting chronology from the pyramids. They still focus on dates as late as 1975 and 1994 but nothing like what they were up to in the early days with every conceivable implied chronology used.

Thanks, again, for having this online for us!!!!

L.G.

20

Comprehensive list of WATCHTOWER DATES

by JanH in

jw
friends

abandoned in 1930. .

Larsguy

Hi Jan!

Sorry, I didn't see the 1875! But I did a little search and, indeed, it was the "Harp of God" that gives this chronology. But apparently by 1927 which is the version I have, revised the dating to 1874. I found the reference I wanted at "larryi" and here's the link and post. So this represents that 1-year date change that AF talks about, i.e. 1914 based upon 606BCE vs 607BCE. The one-year difference would make 1875 1874, though I also am aware that they linked a 40-year chronology from 1874 to 1914 early on. But this is great references!

But here is a reference you do not have from "Harp of God" apparently, at least not the 1927 version that as you can see from the quote deals with a lot of chronology. Maybe you should get ahold of the book and have a field day!!!\

From: http://www.serve.com/larryi/proph11.htm

Harp of God
In the article "Jehovah, My Confidence From Youth On" from the August 1, 1993 "Watchtower" magazine, the WTBTS has once again either lied or misinformed its readers. The article states that in the book "The Harp of God" the Chapter "Our Lord Returns" that there were no dates given for the return.
The writer says,"I read it with great interest, but I was disappointed that no year was given for the return. The book however indicated that it was not far off."
Well, I get out my copy (The Harp of God, 1921) and read on page 231, paragraph 400 in the chapter "Our Lord's Return" as follows:
"There are two important dates here that we must not confuse, but clearly differentiate, namely, the beginning of the "time of the end" and of "the presence of the Lord". "The time of the end" embraces a period from A.D. 1799, as above indicated, to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan's empire and the establishment of the kingdom of the Messiah. The time of the Lord's second presence dates from 1874, as above stated. The latter period is within the first named, of course, and at the latter part of the period known as "the time of the end"."
Oops, ouch, whoaaa, what happened! Do I have the right book? Afraid so! Did I read the right chapter? Sure did! Could I have made a mistake? Not today! Sorry, but another case of (can I say it?) deception or error!
Much of the chapter deals with the "presence" or second coming of the Lord and other WTBTS dates, including 1878, 1914, 1917, 1918, 1919. A very interesting book to say the least and one all JWs, ex-JWs, those who study with JWs, or just interested persons should read. Just another indication of the false prophet organization, the WTBTS.

Thanks so much Jan! I'll read through the list thoroughly to see if there are any other surprises I can find and maybe hunt down some specific references for you. May as well tell it all, including the changes!!!

L.G.

20

Comprehensive list of WATCHTOWER DATES

by JanH in

jw
friends

abandoned in 1930. .

Larsguy

1874 The start of Christ's invisible presence. Russell's most important date. Three Worlds p175, SiS2 p170, Our Lord's Return p27, Proclaimers p133 footnote. Until around 1904, Russell taught that this year marked the start of the Battle of Armageddon, WT 1/15/92 p21-3 [repr p1355]. SiS2, p101.
Abandoned in 1930; [Note 2] WTS itself claims it was abandoned in 1943

Hi Jan! I love your list but how could you miss the references that says that 1874 was the invisible second coming of Christ? This was a major date for focus for the WTS! Furthermore, you missed the actual CHRONOLOGY behind this date, that is, it's reference to the fulfillment of the "1335 days"!! I think that's critical, don't you? I mean what they attach to the date after the fact is another thing, but where they came up with the date in the first place is very important.
If you can get ahold of the 1927 publication (can you believe it? as late as 1927?) called: "The Harp of God" I think (I'll check it out further) it discusses this chronology. But 1874 is based upon the 1335 years since the establishment of the Catholic Church...that's where 1874 comes from based upon Bible chronology.
I'm really not sure, in fact, about the name of the book, it might not be "Harp of God" but I'll recognize it if I look up some of the older publications and I'll try to find the references for you so you can add this and the reference to 1925 being related to 3500 years of 70 jubilees. If you were not aware of these references then I'm glad I was able to bring them to your attention. In fact, I KNOW it is not the "Harp of God" but another one. I don't have a copy available to me. But I'll get the title and you can look it up, or maybe it's posted on the net. I'm sure the list old publications on the net and I'll get the title for you!!
Thanks so much!

20

Comprehensive list of WATCHTOWER DATES

by JanH in

jw
friends

abandoned in 1930. .

Larsguy

1925 The end of the world immediately following the resurrection of "men of old" (Biblical heroes listed in Hebrews chapter 11). Establishment of Kingdom in Palestine. SiS7 p128, Millions p88,97. Very definite statements in WT 6/15 1922; 4/1 1923, elsewhere.
Naturally abandoned after 1925, even though the date itself was held to be somehow fixed in the Scriptures even as late as in 1931 (Vindication I p338).

Hi Jan,
Thanks for posting this information!! But I'm aware that the basis for the 1925 dating is related to the WTS calculation of 70 jubilees. I don't know if you were aware of that or didn't find the reference. Basically they considered a jubilee 50 years and calculated 70 jubilees to complete a 70-jubilee period of 3500 years beginning with their dating of the Jews entry into Palestine in c. 1575 BCE. That's theo riginal chronology behind 1925, though obviously they attacked other events to it. It makes sense they would think the "men of old" would be resurrected at this critical time since it would be a major jubilee event for the Jews in relation to entry into the promised land.
If I recall, this reference must be in one of the "Studies in the Scriptures" volumes which are online somehwere. It would be nice to include that reference in connection with 1925 to show the basis of this specific date. They certainly didn't see any resurrection occur and then come up with this date. They had to apply some chronology to predict it. Your coverage is quite comprehensive and this was a well-known missed date. Your list simply would not be complete without it. If you have access to the volumes then I think you can do a simple search. In the meantime I'll check and see if I can find the reference and then you can add it to your list if you wish. Many persons didn't realize the WTS had a concept of the 70 jubilees chronology theory. E-mail me if you like.
Did you?
Thanks, Jan!

7

????? - "Established Kingdom"...

by Olympiad in

established kingdom

this verbiage has always been of interest to me, established kingdom, however we should remind our watchtower friends that it can not be found in the bible, any bible that i am aware of.

it is the basis however for the new message preached by jehovahs favored few.

Larsguy

Interesting write-up but it thuds out rather quickly. The "good news" about the kingdom basically is about the millennial reign of Christ and the paradise earth that will be established. The WTS publications always show HAPPY-HAPPY people enjoying the new paradise earth, how is this un-good news?

Their message also focus on eternal life and the end of death and sickness. Who else is preaching that GOOD NEWS?

So your article simply shows the ability to create a fantasy and try and make it real. This article thuds out because the fundamental doctrine of JWs about the paradise earth and eternal life, the end of death and sickness is, indeed, the good news of the kingdom.

Furthermore, the Bible prophesied that there would be a "temple" organization in its right condition after 2300 evenings and mornings, that is 1150 years into the last 1260 years ending the final 70 weeks which ended in 1996; that means for the final 110 years of the 1260-year period a special organization would be assigned to preaching this "good news" and have advanced Bible knowledge. 110 years prior to 1996 is 1886 which is when the first "Studies In the Scriptures" came out, later volumes establishing a new sect that later called themselves JWs where each member is involved in the preaching of the "good news" about the paradise earth under God's established kingdom.

So, you see, your article goes no where for the informed.

Of note, though, this organization's leaders were also prophesied to become apostate and the organization would have it's complications (2 Thess 4:2); but still, though seeded with weeds from the very beginning God would use the organization, allowing the "wheat and weeds" to grow up together until the harvest time when a separation would take place. This is a reference to the witness organization and their work, a mixture of profound understanding of scripture along with some presumptive false teachings, primarily based upon their eagerness to apply Bible chronology.

But still, the main point is: How can you say a paradise earth with no death or sickness isn't "good news"? I don't quite get it.

Have a nice day.

L.G.

77

Did the Resurrection really happen?

by thinker in

was written next and makes a brief mention of the resurrection and ascension; which includes a conspiracy theory about the body being stolen (matt.

where did jesus first appear?

where else did jesus appear?

Larsguy

Interesting premise here, which I won't debate, but just add it's not the only theory.

What I've pointed out is the common origin of mankinds beliefs about the Messiah as taught by Noah and the distortion of that concept. The only point being that we assume because some surviving record which might have been a distorted record, just because it's in an older extant copy, has more validity or predated a more original version of which we only have later copies. It's like the flood myth; each culture has it's own take on it but that suggests a common origin.

The issue of the Messiah could be the same. Genesis sets the premise for the Messiah being bruised in the heel by the Devil. If Noah understood that the Messiah would come and die for the sins of mankind then that's all the foundation you need for varying and evolving Messiah myths. Furthermore, sometimes myths grow out of strategic historical events and become mytholigized.

Now, as far as the NT is concerned, there is a little wrinkle. That wrinkle is the fact that the primary contributors to the NT, John and Paul, never died per critical Biblical understanding and as believed in certain "anointed" circles.

Jesus said that "some standing here would not die until he arrived"; and several references in the scriptures shows there were two recognized classes during Jesus' day; one which would die and then resurrected at Christ's return and another class that would not die at all. This was considered literal. John in the last verses of his book discuss about the rumor that he "would not die", but that was only in the conetxt that Peter had been told he would die and this simply addressed whether John would be in the "living" group or the "resurrection" group.

Of note, Paul includes himself in the group of those who would "survive until the Lord's day" in comparison to those who would die and get resurrected later at the time of Christ's presence: 1 Thess 4:15 "...WE THE LIVING who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death." Note he is establishing two groups: the living who SURVIVE until the Lords presence adn those who must fall asleep in death. But he includes himself in the former group, when he says "WE THE LIVING." And he uses the right term, "survive" since he is talking about 1900 plus years! Of course, most persons cannot handle the idea of a group of original Christians living all this time.

Even so, there is a basis for this belief in scripture. But that being the case, certainly John and Paul were around to influence the NT canon, at least that's the presumption. So the usual presumptions would not in particular apply to the NT.

In addition, as I said, Noah would have known of the Messiah and his ransom sacrifice and that would have been sufficient common knowledge to explain the consistent myths about a dying god who rises later and gives life to all things. Only it got connected with spring and the land and other distortions. Even so, the Jewish belief in the Messiah needn't have been based on the pagan adaptations; their myth of the Messiah goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden.

But as someone else noted, when it comes to history and what we can actually PROVE, we can only get so close.

Nicely prepared article! I enjoyed reading it.

L.G.

77

Did the Resurrection really happen?

by thinker in

was written next and makes a brief mention of the resurrection and ascension; which includes a conspiracy theory about the body being stolen (matt.

where did jesus first appear?

where else did jesus appear?

Larsguy

...we know that the myth of Santa Claus started with the actual person of St. Nick

Actually, there is a bit more to it than that though your point is well-taken about how myths evolve. St. Nick is a reference to the Devil, but the current kids-loving Santa Claus is based on an actual St. Nicolas. But in the earliest days, there were two of them. One black and one white; of course, the black St. Nick represented the evil and the white St. Nick the good. And they used to ride together in the sled with the black St. Nick in the back. I've wondered if that is part of the concept of why in the South the blacks were supposed to ride in the back of the bus.

At any rate, various tangents, as you noted, keep getting added or deleted from the myth or even combined and distorted. Many people do combine the idea and understanding that St. Nick represents the Devil but only because there's only one Santa Claus now. They don't realize that there used to be two of them riding in that sled originally.

But that's also a parallel point. Some critical historical details that later become embarrassing are suppressed or distorted or left out when the times change and cultural sensitivities change.

Nice post with a legitimate question. The Bible like all historical works has to stand on it's own against criciticism. I think it does very well basically, but it shouldn't be immune to examination.

L.G.

13

Nuclear bomb dropped to start GT?

by blondie in

has anyone ever seen a statement in one the wts publications saying that a limited nuclear exchange could start the great tribulation?

i seem to remember that from my childhood days at the book study.

Larsguy

Hi ballistic:

Larsguy, you said this threat of nuclear war is "good news". Well you truly are sick and I hope God forgives you because "you do not know".

I meant that as a conditional comment in context. "But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near."

L.G.

13

Nuclear bomb dropped to start GT?

by blondie in

has anyone ever seen a statement in one the wts publications saying that a limited nuclear exchange could start the great tribulation?

i seem to remember that from my childhood days at the book study.

Larsguy

Please read your Bibles.

The thing that will trigger Armageddon is the destruction of Babylon the Great by the U.N. According to Daniel, Japan, Russia and the US would give up sovereignty at the time the 4th beast, Babylon the Great, is destroyed by fire and they would be extended life for "a time and a season" which is 1 year and 3 months.

But, the threat of nuclear exchange or an actual exchange might hasten the world government through the UN. I see that as being in a direct line to get Americans to give into a world government and to destroy the influence of Freemasonry world money brokers in an effort to finally have "world peace and security".

At any rate, the world climate is very much as prophesied by the Bible. So it's really good news. The end is critically near.

L.G.

10

how does Jehovah rationalize Babel?

by SpiderMonkey in

i'll try to keep this concise... this is an issue i never got an answer to, from the elders or any witness, on my way out of the "truth":.

jws believe that god permits evil to answer the "age-old challenge from satan the devil," that man can't rule himself without god, correct?

(please correct me if i'm wrong).

Larsguy

Interesting question and challenge.

It's one thing to question God's motives but another to get the story wrong, so permit me to simply add a little more background and you can still take it from there.

For one, mankind was told to spread out into the world. When mankind is disobedient God punishes them sometimes and sometimes manipulates them to do what he commanded them to do. If they are truly rebellious he has reserved the lake of fire for them. That's it. Basically the earth was designed for only the obedient and righteous.

Having said that, the witness idea about mankind "ruling himself for 6000 years" basically is for the record of what man and Satan would accomplish during the slightly less than 6000 years but within limits; when they get too far off track, God sometimes intervenes so that his purpose stays on track.

In the case of Babel, there might not have been any need to confuse the languages had they been obedient and dispersed as they had been commanded. So that's the accurate context of introducing the various languages.

As far as a predisposition to war, one might ask if a peace-loving Spanish-speaking person meets a peace-loving English-speaking person, do they automatically find it difficult to coexist?

On the other hand, do persons of the same language ever fight each other? Like the Americans fought the English? Ever hear of a "civil war"? So what's the problem there?

God doesn't mind others observing how he deals with things, in fact, it's imperative to do so in order go get along with him. But basically, the idea of the 6000 years was "for the record" as I said. God could have just dusted Adam and Eve along with Satan right there and then and created a new couple and started over and that would have been that. But, there were apparent advantages to allowing Adams children to be born, even though imperfect so they could be saved later on. In addition, if man were allowed some freedoms without active, direct interference from God for a while, there would be a record of comparison of what will happen under man's rule and under God's rule. This, I think is important for free moral agents. He allows mankind to experience things for himself and then weigh the value of them. So in relation to the 6000 years, God will take a "rest" from Satan and man's rule and have Jesus (in the flesh) rule for 1000 years. A comparison of man's behavior under that arrangement with the 6000 years of man's semi-independent rule will then be used for determining on JUDGMENT DAY just who will get life and who will not. The people doing the judging will be from among mankind.

But basically, the JIOR considers all these things "patience" and "mercy" on God's part since he really didn't have to allow any of this and if he didn't, YOU, a child of Adam, wouldn't have been born. So it was for the sake of Adam's lost children that this "exercise" opportunity is taking place.

But it IS vitally important, while judging God to also observe his personality. What would be important to observe is that 1) He requires obedience, and 2) he has LOTS OF POWER to do all kinds of things to trip you up if you think you can oppose him effectively, and 3) Ultimately if you insist upon being obstinent he will definitely get angry and throw your a$$ in the lake of fire. No problemo. It's his universe, he can do what he wants with it. It's MY WAY or the FRY WAY...

That's what FREE MORAL AGENCY is all about. The choice is to do it God's way and live forever or do it your way and die after a short period of time of relative independence.

What amazes me about God is that ulimately, everyone can have a differing view of things and criticize God but in the end, MIGHT MAKES RIGHT! God has the ultimate power to have the final word. Nothing happens without life.

So as I said, the rebellions and opposing opinions are really for the philosophical record because in the end God will enforce his own PLAN for HIS universe, and in that defense, he as a LEGAL RIGHT, since he's the owner to do so. Any English Lawyer will tell you that.

So, we all have a chance to rebel or a chance to be.......smart?

:>