Sweetstuff you hit on another problem I've had for years with the whole WT Society interpretation of Jehoober's sovereignty fight. If the angels, including Satan, who worked and lived with big J on a most intimate level and are near perfect couldn't stand to tow the line then how do any of us stand even the slightest chance of being faithful? If the angels are smart and know of God's full powers then wouldn't they know a rebellion would always end in their destruction? You would have to be pretty miserable in your service to prefer sure suicide to an eternity of living in God's presence. Jehoober must not be very nice if so many of His closest angelic associates decided to join Satan in his rebellion and seal their fates. It doesn't make any sense.
Liberty
JoinedPosts by Liberty
-
25
Inconsistency in Placing Blame?
by Mum ini was just reading something about the story in genesis about the angels leaving heaven to mate with earthly women.
does anyone else find it peculiar that the watchtower places no blame on the women?
in the wt world, it is always the less powerful who bears the primary burden of guilt except in this one case.. for example, didn't someone post a wt form which asks an applicant about pedophile practices and then asks if the child did anything to provoke the assault?
-
-
-
25
Inconsistency in Placing Blame?
by Mum ini was just reading something about the story in genesis about the angels leaving heaven to mate with earthly women.
does anyone else find it peculiar that the watchtower places no blame on the women?
in the wt world, it is always the less powerful who bears the primary burden of guilt except in this one case.. for example, didn't someone post a wt form which asks an applicant about pedophile practices and then asks if the child did anything to provoke the assault?
-
-
Liberty
You make a good point Mum. Your topic has also caused me to remember this as just one of many silly WTB&T Society "interpretations" of a Bible story. In the first place, the original account in Genesis doesn't say this was done by angels but rather by "the sons of God". I don't think any Bible scholar could know for sure just who the sons of God were in this strange context.
Secondly, if they really were angels then God has some serious problems with how He creates spirit beings and boundery issues. To me the story couldn't possibly be true because I am not sexually attracted to insects and yet I am from birth just an imperfect sinner living in the same physical realm as the insects. Since I have no interest in "getting it on" with insects I can't imagine how spirit beings (angels) second only to God, who is said to have created the Universe, would be attracted to smelly ape-like humans from another realm of reality in the first place. Sure, I was programmed to be sexually attracted to females of my own kind and stink. I think human females of breeding age look great but male ants think the same thing of the hormone spurting huge quivery white queen ants ten times the males size. Not to mention just how a "spirit being" angel could have any sexual feelings at all since they are asexual and made up of spirit? The whole concept is absolute nonsense and sounds like a myth or legend created by human beings and not a revelation from God.
If angels could become flesh and "marry" humans is there any indication that the angels were told it was wrong to do so? Why would their offspring be any better than the average human of the time who was supposidely closer to perfection back then according to Watch Tower's own interpretations? How could an angel add "superness" to the genes he is transmitting to the human egg? Chimps share 90+% of our genes but cannot produce chimp-humans so how could an angel add very much extra to the mix and still produce offspring? Wouldn't they have to replicate themselves into as exact of human forms as possible if they wanted kids? Why would sex starved angels even want kids? If I were an angel I'd just make my sperm incompatable and have sex with as many hot young chicks as possible without the complications of pregnancy, especially if I lived for eons and had to watch my children die over and over again.
In short, the whole thing smells of egotistical humans imagining that our chicks are so HOT that even the angels would want them. This crap may have flown with ancient goat herders but anyone with half a brain today should know it is complete nonsense on every level.
-
30
evidence of angelic direction
by tank ini just came across this on the official watchtover web site www.watchtower.org/ .
quote.
jehovah's witnesses spend more than a billion hours annually preaching the good news of god's kingdom.
-
-
Liberty
My wife was a Southern Baptist and they had exactly the same stories about themselves, as do Mormons, Moonies, Catholics, etc. Everyone who believes in make believe make up make believe stories to reinforce the "reality" of their fantasy/delusion. They also take a few real events that are not that miraculous and inflate them into super natural events.
Also, as others have pointed out, when you have a population of people where 95% claim to believe in God is it really a "miracle" that in a random door to door calling among such a population you are going to find someone who had just been praying? You have over a 90% chance of running across people who pray on a regular basis, big deal. Using this logic Angels must be assisting me in finding people who have had a bowel movement "that very same day" when I randomly meet people on the street.
-
26
Anyone recall the WTS's crazy notions about the literal "heart"?
by fahrvegnugen inback in my dub days, i used to make copies of all the old recorded talks i could get my hands on.
in the process i was surprised to come across several talks in which the "faithful slave" tried to make the case that all the scriptures talking about the "heart" were not figurative, but referred to one's literal heart--the organ itself!
as i recall, they even incorporated some pseudo-scientific quotes as "proof" that the heart could effect your thoughts and motivations.
-
-
Liberty
This was definately part of Watch Tower "science" during the Fred Franz years. The ancient Egyptians believed the heart to be the organ of thought and emotion while they considered the brain was just for making mucos. In mummification the Egyptians didn't even bother to preserve the brain but pulled it out and discarded it as of no use in the after life. The heart however was carefully preserved. The Judgement by their gods was accomplished by weighing the heart of the dead in the nether world to determin reward or punishment.
This is, of course, where the Bible gets it's own false notions that the heart is the seat of our emotions and emminates the thoughts of good and evil for which humans are judged by God. This false belief was considered literal by the Society until the real evidence became so overwhelming that it was quietly allowed to dissappear from JW cosmology along with 7000 year creative days and the 1914 Generation. This heart nonsense was also used to justify the WTB&T Society's idiotic organ transplant ban from the same era which has also since been quietly sweept under the rug of JW stupidity.
If the Society were really "spirit" directed then why do they have to keep revising their belief systems?
-
40
Need Everybody's Help!!
by Metamorphosis inok - i've placed myself in a make or break situation.
i don't post a lot so you may not be familiar with me, but feel free to read my initial post on my situation.
a little has changed - i've now not turned in a service report the last two months (june and july) - first time in 25+ years, it feels great!
-
-
Liberty
You know your wife best. So if your instincts about her say to hit it harder that might be the way to go. I hope she can see the truth. Best of luck
-
40
Need Everybody's Help!!
by Metamorphosis inok - i've placed myself in a make or break situation.
i don't post a lot so you may not be familiar with me, but feel free to read my initial post on my situation.
a little has changed - i've now not turned in a service report the last two months (june and july) - first time in 25+ years, it feels great!
-
-
Liberty
Your information is good. Unfortunately, your wife must be willing to overcome her "cult-control" filters to see it. If she has some reservations about the WTB&TS you might get through but if she is a hard core beliver it will not matter how good the evidence is. This may be make or break for your relationship.
If you haven't already exposed her to any information you might be better off approaching her from a simple "I can't believe a Loving God would kill all the unbeliever's babies and children at the big "A" and this has really been bothering me.". Or explain that when you run the numbers it becomes clear that the longer Jehovah postpones the big "A" the greater the number of people who will exponentially be killed because the population of nonbelivers is growing at a vastely higher rate than believers (JWs) and that their preaching work can never catch up to reach them. The big "A" should have happened years ago when millions would not have been born just to be killed. You may also mention that huge areas of the Islamic world and Asia have never been touched by the JW's message and that the Society uses "collective guilt" to excuse this uncomfortable fact. Is God a racist and is He regionally biased? The scenario presented by the Society just doesn't make any sense and this bothers my conscience.
There is NO "Apostate" information contained in these obvious self-evident problems/contradictions. The other thing that bothered me long before I ever had any exposure to "Apostate" information was how could Jehovah be inspiring the Society to "cry wolf" over and over again as it relates to the coming of the big "A". If your wife is a life long JW surely she realizes that even in her short lifespan the Society has promised that the "End" was only a few years away over and over again. How does falsely claiming this strengthen anyone's belief or faith over time? Why would God "spirit direct" them to falsley proclaim this over & over again only to tear down a believer's faith and make nonbelievers all the more skeptical?
I only suggest bringing up these points because you could not be accussed of having "Apostate" sources for these troubling problems nor are they very complex or fact heavy since they are mostly common sense observations which trouble the emotions of a kind and loving person.
Best of luck what ever you decide. You are in a tight spot.
-
284
NAME JUST ONE thing....ONE THING...revealed by God....
by Terry insomebody is always insisting they have an invisible and mysterious source of divine information and selling it like hotcakes and syrup.
but, why are you still buying?
when will you ever learn that this is a scam among many scams.
-
-
Liberty
Terry, Bible appologists are stuck with little if anything to refute your well made point. Any one who honestly approaches a real study of the Bible will find that there is nothing contained in it that was not already common knowledge among other ancient peoples. Another telling sign that there was no divine inspiration among Bible writters is that so many misconceptions held by other ancient cultures are repeated.
Even the oft quoted predictions of future events cannot be documented to have been written any time before the actual events occurred, the destruction of Jerusulem by the Romans in 70 A.D. for example was supposed to have been predicted by Jesus some 40 years before yet there are no original texts which can be dated from before 100 A.D. In short, anything not documented to have been written before 70 A.D. about the event is useless for proving any divine inspiration.
Most of what the Bible writers knew came from the superior regional civilizations which dominated the So-Called-Promised-Land over and over again and can easily be traced back to predate any Judaic culture. The Egyptians had an especially strong influence upon the region and were the first documented to practice monotheism, dietary restrictions, and even circumcision which were later claimed by Judaism.
It is also very clear that Jesus promised to bring about His Kingdom within the lifespan of the original Apostles. 2000 years have now passed without any fullfillment. Not one thing predicted has come true without alot of mental gymnastics to "prove" a "spiritual" fullfillment much like the JW's "invisible" enthronement of Christ in 1914 when the evidence for the real event could not be found and so an "invisible" event is substituted. Invisible evidence is the same as no evidence.
-
47
Intelligent Design Clobbered Again
by AlanF injehovah's witnesses seem to have drifted toward the political notion of "intelligent design" in recent years.
several times since 1996 their literature has referenced the book darwin's black box by michael behe, which book has become a kind of bible for iders.
the book introduces the notion of "irreducible complexity" in a formal way as disprove of evolution.
-
-
Liberty
Oh hooberus you must know that most of us have studied your Bible, extensive apologetics, and Christian beliefs till we are blue in the face. The fact that most of us have also bothered to study science and really learn about evolution puts us ahead of you since we know the arguments inside and out from both sides.
There is NO scriptural answer for the problem of suffering in the world apart from imaginitive apologetics from centuries of Christians trying to make sense of their contadictory and confusing Bible, hence your reference to Creationism books. Books about what people think the Bible means are NOT the Bible or God, they remain simple human conjecture. That the Universe, as we all know it, is cruel and chaotic is a fact, and only we humans have ever attempted to answer why it is that way. Your God remains silent about the issue.
What creationists always fail to see is that if there really is a Creator then He is ultimately responsible for evil in His creation. You can blame the Devil or humans all day long but the Creator remains the sole cause of His creation and as such the sole source of evil. This is a real problem for you guys and it has never been solved. We who believe in a natural Universe do not have such a conundrum because a Universe unguided by intelligence looks just as it should, uncaring, cruel, and brutal in its accidental forms. Only we humans bring a measure of morality and kindness into this chaos.
-
31
Ridiculous JW superstitions
by B_Deserter ini'm not talking about the stuff you hear at the kingdom hall, i'm talking about the "experiences" you were told of by people you knew.
the big one for me was demons.
so many people i know had experiences with them.
-
-
Liberty
Hi B_Deserter,
Your mother believes that the heart is a thinking organ because that is what the Watch Tower Society taught for years. The ancient Israelites believed this too, but like everything they believed it came originally from Pagan (GASP!) cultures which greatly influenced, for most of Israel's history, the tiny, powerless, oft-conquered, and wholly unoriginal Israelites. The Egyptians had a huge influence over the region and they were the source of much of the Jewish religion/culture including the incorrect belief that the heart was the thinking organ, others include circumcision, dietary restrictions, the concept of monotheism.
The fear of demons is another idiotic belief encouraged by the Watch Tower Society. I now laugh to myself when I think that super powerful and intelligent spirit beings second only to Jehoover Himself have nothing better to do than hang out in old clothes and furniture just waiting to "demonize" and frighten JWs. Pure nonsense. I can't believe I used to fall for this stupidity.
-
47
Intelligent Design Clobbered Again
by AlanF injehovah's witnesses seem to have drifted toward the political notion of "intelligent design" in recent years.
several times since 1996 their literature has referenced the book darwin's black box by michael behe, which book has become a kind of bible for iders.
the book introduces the notion of "irreducible complexity" in a formal way as disprove of evolution.
-
-
Liberty
Hi Top Hat,
You must be pulling our chains. You can't really be this shallow? A god who can create a universe can surely come up with a less brutal and horrific solution to overpopulation.