Posts by Liberty

13

The Organization -An Enemy or Friend

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

i would like to ask you for your collective help:.

i am in the process of attending a judicial committee meeting with three elders because of my "speaking" of "apostate" ideas in the congregation.

they have made responses to some of my thoughts but i can't make a reply in turn.

Liberty

If your stock broker told you to buy Enron stock because God told him it was a sure thing but then after it goes belly up and you lose your money he said, "well it was your fault for reading too much into my suggestion. Afterall, I'm only human!" and then a couple of weeks later he says you should invest in Worldcom because God says it is a sure thing this time and when this one goes belly up and you complain he threatens to shun you would you consider him to be your friend?

I listened to the Organization and lost parts of my life I'll never get back because they told me about a "sure thing" investment promised by Jehover himself. They are not my friends as they have proven to be liars everytime and it cost me parts of my life and I got nothing I was ever promised. Me and millions of others. An honest religion or stock broker says up front , "this is a gamble because we only have limited information so be careful and be preparred to lose your investment if we are wrong about this." This person could be my friend but not a liar like the Watchtower Society who said that they had the insider info from God himself that it was a sure thing.

14

Hollywood Therapy

by Cicatrix in

okay,hittin the wall now.the downs are more common than the up days at this early point.i read about post cult trauma syndrome, so i understand now why i feel numb, then angry,then weepy all in a nanosecond, like i'm gazing out of a fishbowl at a distorted world,why i'm having nightmares about congregation members.why my brain feels like a fried egg.why i want to run back to the only life i've known for 20 years, even though the thought of stepping foot inside of a kingdom hall causes me to panic.. sooo, can anyone recommend any good movies to rent to help me process some of this?.

i watched matrix twice,after i saw it mentioned on the discussion board.wow!how chilling.it's funny-i watched this movie while still a wavering dub and it disturbed me.now i know why.. i also like chocolat, the scarlet letter (i'm sending my da letter in a red envelope hehe), and the wall(plan to rent this again ).. i'm reading 1984.. i know i probably shouldn't be so focused on this-i need to start getting out there and finding the positive,and some days i manage to do that, but right now i seem to have a need to try and make sense of it all.. any more suggestions?.

cicatrix.

Liberty

Always keep in mind that you are not alone in your fears and feelings as all of us ex-Dubs know what you are going through. Even after we discovered that we no longer could be associated with the Watchtower Society we held on to our beliefs and guilt about Armageddon, demons, the killer god Jehover, sin, salvation, the Bible and a whole host of things that gave our world meaning while at the same time terrifying us. You must experiance the truth about the reality of these things on your own. Looking at the world from another point of view will help you formulate a new Cosmology without relying on the Society . They want you to feel alone and to be frightened with only their world view so you will come back to them. Be sure you have built a vantage point from which to view your real options before making any more choices. Despite what they say you do have real options and other choices.

14

Hollywood Therapy

by Cicatrix in

okay,hittin the wall now.the downs are more common than the up days at this early point.i read about post cult trauma syndrome, so i understand now why i feel numb, then angry,then weepy all in a nanosecond, like i'm gazing out of a fishbowl at a distorted world,why i'm having nightmares about congregation members.why my brain feels like a fried egg.why i want to run back to the only life i've known for 20 years, even though the thought of stepping foot inside of a kingdom hall causes me to panic.. sooo, can anyone recommend any good movies to rent to help me process some of this?.

i watched matrix twice,after i saw it mentioned on the discussion board.wow!how chilling.it's funny-i watched this movie while still a wavering dub and it disturbed me.now i know why.. i also like chocolat, the scarlet letter (i'm sending my da letter in a red envelope hehe), and the wall(plan to rent this again ).. i'm reading 1984.. i know i probably shouldn't be so focused on this-i need to start getting out there and finding the positive,and some days i manage to do that, but right now i seem to have a need to try and make sense of it all.. any more suggestions?.

cicatrix.

Liberty

Hi Cicatrix,

You are suffering because you have been terrorized for years by the Watchtower Society. They depend on emotion to control you so you need to counter this with cold hard logic. You are on the right track watching movies about free thinking and awakening from thought control. Reading 1984 is a great healing experiance as well. I would also highly recommend a crash course in science whether on your own or at a university/college.

The Watchtower hates science so this should give you a clue as to how important it is to your recovery by replacing emotion and superstition with logic and reality. Carl Sagan was a great science writer for the non scientist. Watch his Cosmos series and then read his books. After some Sagan and a basic knowledge of scientific method you can attempt some Stephen J.Gould. You must create a new Cosmology to replace the bogus world view imposed upon you by the Society. In the real world the prevailing Cosmology of science and reason will melt away the superstition and ignorance which allows the Watchtower to control you.

You need a whole new world view to fully escape the power of the Tower and science and reason are the foundations of this new Cosmology. As you understand science and reason all your fears and subconscious turmoil can be delt with openly, honestly, and many will just fade away. What is terrifying now will become silly and irrelavant. Ask yourself , why does the Society demonize science, idependant thinking, evolution, higher learning, and observing things and coming to your own conclusions? The answer is clear, because it deminishes their power over their victims who are trapped in the Watchtower's complex and twisted self serving world view, JW Cosmology.

Edited by - Liberty on 20 August 2002 10:22:34

38

Try this poll one last time.

by Bleep in

poll#2.

since the last poll was trolled by some people lets do this one more time.

what is god?

Liberty

Choice #5. By the way, it doesn't matter how much you may study a book if it is nonsense. Just because a book says something doesn't mean it's true. I love the circular reasoning that the Bible is God's true inspired word because the Bible says it is. If I write a book that says I'm God and you should hand over everything to me because I say so in my book does this become true also? I'll need some better evidence than " because some old book says so" before I can acknowledge God's reality.

Edited by - Liberty on 15 August 2002 15:48:9

43

ARE YOU UPSET THAT YOU DIDN"T GO TO COLLEGE?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i have read of some people's bitterness because they were denied the opportunity to go to college.

during the 60's and 70's the society really discouraged any education other than what was necessary.

since the end was so near, especially around 1975, anybody that decided to go to "higher education" was considered very weak and unbalanced.

Liberty

You said it well Gary B. Children raised as JWs are simply never prepared for the harsh realities of life period! Not going to college is just one of many crippling handicaps a JW must struggle with in the real world. Thinking the World will end at any moment has a profound effect on a developing child's psychology. We old timers who grew up as JWs before the 80's got an extra dose of this as is evidenced by the younger folks here who were raised in the more cynical post '75 era. The dogma was backed off a little and JWs became a little more practical especially since the "1914 generation" policy was changed in '95. There is still damage being done however.

41

1975---- DID IT REALLY BOTHER YOU?

by minimus in

jw
friends

on the net you see many talk about 1975 and how it affected so many.

obviously, some left the organization when nothing happened in 1975. were you personally affected by 1975?

has the fixing of dates been a major reason for your disappointment with the witnesses?

Liberty

1975 just gives a face or reference point to the bigger lie the Watchtower Society just keeps telling over and over again and has been telling since it was founded. The big lie, that the End is near, is pure snake oil salesmanship used to give false hope and fear as a means to empty the life blood and pocketbooks of countless suckers. I was there in '75 and know what happened but let's pretend that those who say '75 was never a big deal for JWs are right, it still does not deminish the fact that the whole Organization's reason for existance and their main selling point is to preach that the big "A" is always right around the corner. How else would they get people to give up so much time, potential, time with children and loved ones,and their one precious and short lives to what is essentially an imaginary goal and what has proven to be a complete waste of time. Putting all arguments about faith in God and whether the Bible is true or not aside for the moment we all must admit that, since the big "A" never came for the last 120 odd years that the Watchtower has preached it, all those folks who worked and died for the Watchtower up till now were cheated even if the End happened today. This is a fact since the big "A" never happened in their lifetimes as they were all promised ("millions now living will never die"). It is, therefore, also a fact that the Watchtower has taught a false hope (LIE) for 120 years, period. This is why 1975 bothers me more than anything else. The fact that the Watchtower now lies about ever having taught or promoted that 1975 was, at the very LEAST, an important "marked" date is even more infuriating. Unfortunately 1975 is just one of many false dates taught by the Watchtower which have left thousands cheated out of priceless lifetimes. What a waste!

Edited by - Liberty on 15 August 2002 14:6:35

69

Who Here Believes in God?

by The_Bad_Seed in

jw
friends

personally, i do not believe god ever has or ever will exist.

i have my reasons -- i guess i could be considered an agnostic, rather than an athiest.

i was curious to see what the larger part of the former borg community believed, now looking from the outside in, rather than the opposite.

Liberty

Not me. I've spent a lifetime looking for any evidence that God is real and ,to my shock and horror ,have only found mounds of evidence to the contrary. Through years of study, the Bible has proven itself to be a contradictory and illogical joke, if this is God's true inspired word then God is insane and unworthy of our respect let alone worship and obediance. It is obvious to me now that religions and gods are all man made. Despite all our wishes for a big sky daddy to take care of us and who understands how "important" we are, objective evidence clearly and consistantly proves it is all superstitious nonsense.

Our only consolation is that the Universe is neutral tword us. It niether hinders nor helps us. I now sleep better knowing that I am not at the heart of a Universal struggle between Good and Evil (Jehovah and Satan). My ego has been deflated but the relief I feel is well worth it. I am too small and weak to shoulder such a responsability. Depite what religionists say, Atheism is the humbler path. I am not made more powerful by my association with an imaginary Superman (God) so I must fend for my self and accept my talents and limitations as all my own.

21

Who are these guys?

by Nowhere in

hello, i have a little question here.

(be patient with my english) .

are they really witnesses?

Liberty

Hi Nowhere,

I think You Know may be for real but I'd bet Fred Hall is just having fun with the whole idea. FH's grammer and spelling mistakes are beyond what even an average JW who got pulled out of school for Armageddon would exhibit so I think he's just having us on for giggles. There are a few other real party-line JWs that come and go in hit and run attacks because they can't defend their illogical positions and cult mind set. Reasonable JWs are usually on their way out when they debate here but they are still JWs in an official sense. The Watch Tower Society cult cannot stand real debate in an open and free forum as anyone who watches this board objectively would soon find out so party-line JWs won't debate here. Even You Know has his own ideas which are not Watch Tower party-line so I think that's part of why he sticks around.

You should wonder seriously about joining this group if you can clearly see the lack of reason and logic in their beliefs. I'm not real bitter about the time I wasted in this cult and my main problem with it is its lack of logic and disrespect of the scientific method. It is a mind control cult in every objective sense because it does not allow a free flow of information or thought. You will be punished for doing either and this is control. You might have to see it for yourself first hand maybe. If you don't have family or friends to loose in the process join up and get baptized then see how long any free thinking or disagreement will be tolerated. Don't believe me try it and see for yourself. Be careful though, don't get brainwashed into buying that this control is normal.

5

WHY OLD AGE IS DANGEROUS IN GB MEMBERS

by Liberty in

jw
friends

after reading a topic critical of our poking fun at the watchtower society's ancient governing body i could not help but be reminded of the stupid pronouncments that this aged state induces when the gb claim to be "spirit directed" by god.

most of the goofy "the end is near" disappointments which have ruined so many lives over the years among the watchtower's cult members are due to the desire of those in charge to see their "end time hopes" fulfilled before they died.. russel was an old man near death as he pushed hard that the end must be in 1914. rutherford was dying of cancer in the 1940's as he pushed hard for wwii being the sure sign of armageddon's start.

fred franz pushed 1975 for the same reasons knowing that his own time was limited.

Liberty

After reading a topic critical of our poking fun at the Watchtower Society's ancient Governing Body I could not help but be reminded of the stupid pronouncments that this aged state induces when the GB claim to be "spirit directed" by God. Most of the goofy "The End is Near" disappointments which have ruined so many lives over the years among the Watchtower's cult members are due to the desire of those in charge to see their "End Time Hopes" fulfilled before they died.

Russel was an old man near death as he pushed hard that the End must be in 1914. Rutherford was dying of cancer in the 1940's as he pushed hard for WWII being the sure sign of Armageddon's start. Fred Franz pushed 1975 for the same reasons knowing that his own time was limited. These all powerful Watchtower Gurus began to believe that they could will Armageddon into starting if they just pushed hard enough and convinced their gullable followers that they were right. My main point being that these clowns took it upon themselves that they were God's inspired messengers for years and years making their predictions and interpretations and fooling their followers into believing it too. When they were younger they all pushed their beliefs strongly and handled their dozens of failures but as old age crept up on them they became crazed in their quest for fulfillment in their own life times and their fear and power got the best of them and they threw all caution to the wind "knowing" that the End must finally be near because God couldn't let them die without fulfilling His promises to them. When someone is all powerful and unaccountable, like the Watchtower leaders are, old age can be a dangerous thing because it inspires a desperatness and a lack of caring for the future because those near death don't think about the consequences for those who must go on living in the world without them or their fevered pipedreams. As Hitler neared his death he gave crazy orders to destroy everything since his dreams would not come true. He could not see a future for his people without him so he assumed they didn't want a future. Some of this selfishness is evident in the bad advice given by Rutherford, Fred Franz, and todays old farts on the GB who fail to realize that young folks will be left to cleanup the mess left by these old geezers and their fantasies.

All of us get old, hopefully we will have good advice and experiances to pass on to the younger folks from our life times of learning but few of us weild or claim for ourselves the kind of power that the JW's Governing Body does so we will not be in a position to ruin lives and cause the pain that these guys have. That is why it is ok to make fun of them for their age because we need to know how dangerous they are and diminish their status and power as much as possible. If they claim to speak for God then they must take on the criticisms which go with such grandeous claims. Worldly politicians must face more criticism than my retired humble Grandpa for the same kinds of reasons. If you think you are a big shot you must also accept that you will be the subject of ridicule and criticism. I have NO sympathy for the self proclaimed "princes" who will rule with Christ on the GB because they better be open to criticism equal to their claims of greatness. This isn't agism or cruelty but simple fairness. Finally, I'd need to see some evidence that these guys deserve my respect. So far, I've seen nothing from them which indicates that God is working through them, unless God is a complete liar and baffoon. The GB deserves all the guff they get and more.

14

The Faithful? Slave Class Substitutes Calculations

by TheOldHippie in

ok, here are the faithful slave class calculations, incorporating their substitues and the substitutes' substitutes.

a bit dull and heavy (hello, larsguy!

.......), but based on population statistics and mathematics.. in 1935, there were 52,465 proessing to be of the remnant.

Liberty

Great Post OldHippie,

Not heavy at all but very interesting. It doesn't matter if your calculations are completely accurate because they still point out the idiocy of the JW belief in the literal 144,000 number. Logic and common sense support your conclusions that the whole thing is a joke because Ol'Jehover must choose really rotten people to the "Heavenly Calling" since such a large majority of these become unfaithful and must be replaced all the time.

The JW's 144,000 thing has always been one of the stupidist among many crackpot ideas because it made no sense that all the Christians for 2000 years, including those there at the beginning and who suffered the most, haven't added up to filling this number a long time ago. That there still remains such a large number of "anointed" today belies the reality of this goofy manmade idea. Yet another reason the whole Watchtower Society is full of you know what. Either that or the all knowing Jehover sure makes a lot of bad choices when nominating Princes to rule with Christ. With a CEO like this Paradise could be a real frightening place cause who knows what kind of dumb mistakes He could make after failing so miserably at reading hearts for His right hand guys. What a joke!