Posts by LittleToe

208

Self Deceit and Faith.

by hillary_step in

jw
friends

this thread is inspired by a comment made on another thread, but i thought it would make an interesting discussion.. self deceit is described as a "misconception that is favorable to the person who holds it".

my premise is that faith is a form of self-deceit - lying to oneself.. so, i would ask of the "faithful" the following questions and would request that they be read carefully to ensure no that there is no misunderstanding of purpose.. 1) in what way is faith not self-deception?.

2) is a person who has faith in a god that you do not believe in, say for example siva, practicing a form of self-deception?.

LittleToe

Burn:

You admit that God could exist. It's his noodly appendages you object to. However, it is reasonable to suppose that if God exists, miracles are possible. Presumably God would certainly have the means to interact with the world we experience and it is quite possible that he has the motives. If God created the universe (and us) he would presumably have an interest in it-and us. It is reasonable that this would furnish prime motivation for performing miraculous events.

I love the "noodly appendages comment, however there's no reason that each of those statements should naturally follow each other. For example consider the beliefs of the Deist.

38

Are there a minimum set of core beliefs that all Christians accept?

by nicolaou in

for example, a christian could not simply believe that jesus was a compassionate man could he?

christ must be accepted as being divine either as part of a trinity or at least as the son of god.. must a christian believe that the miracles of jesus as recorded in the bible are actual events or can they be accepted as allegory?must a christian believe that "all scripture is inspired of god"?jesus is said to separate the sheep from the goats - can you be a christian without accepting that jesus will kill all the goats?there seems to be so much about christ that many christians are simply too uncomfortable to discuss.

why?

LittleToe

1.Cor.2:2 - For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

While I agree with the Apostle's Creed I suspect there is a minority who might not, usually due to ignorance over what it means. Its a similar thing to when individuals claim that they believe in evolution and include unsupportable statements about biogenesis before revealing that they're only really spouting third-hand "stuff".

I suspect that most would agree that in its simplest terms its about a relationship with Christ. Everything else is window dressing.

208

Self Deceit and Faith.

by hillary_step in

jw
friends

this thread is inspired by a comment made on another thread, but i thought it would make an interesting discussion.. self deceit is described as a "misconception that is favorable to the person who holds it".

my premise is that faith is a form of self-deceit - lying to oneself.. so, i would ask of the "faithful" the following questions and would request that they be read carefully to ensure no that there is no misunderstanding of purpose.. 1) in what way is faith not self-deception?.

2) is a person who has faith in a god that you do not believe in, say for example siva, practicing a form of self-deception?.

LittleToe

Tij:
ROFL

208

Self Deceit and Faith.

by hillary_step in

jw
friends

this thread is inspired by a comment made on another thread, but i thought it would make an interesting discussion.. self deceit is described as a "misconception that is favorable to the person who holds it".

my premise is that faith is a form of self-deceit - lying to oneself.. so, i would ask of the "faithful" the following questions and would request that they be read carefully to ensure no that there is no misunderstanding of purpose.. 1) in what way is faith not self-deception?.

2) is a person who has faith in a god that you do not believe in, say for example siva, practicing a form of self-deception?.

LittleToe

Hillary:

I was here discussing religious self-deceit and I am glad to see that you broadly agree with me over this matter.

I certainly do. Its the accoutrements that cause all the arguments, and always has been. For example, I have my own reasons for holding to the theological tenets of the "trinity" insofar as my biblical belief-set goes. In experiential terms I would refine that and hold "Christ" as being the public face of God. However I just shake my head at the folks who argue that a good understanding of the Trinity is a basic requirement for salvation. It has been a bone of contention for the last 1600 years and is one that evidences no clear and unequivocal statement from the first Century. Maybe all those martyrs died for nothing, huh?

Several times I've quoted CS Lewis, regarding keeping a completely open mind regarding the "salvation" of people of other faiths (or none).

SuperfineApostate:

i predict "burntheships" will be an atheist 2 years from now

They suggested such nonsense to me several times over the last six years, but here I still am, believing as strongly as ever. To be candid I feel that such comments are incredibly ignorant and condescending. Go wash your mouth out with soap! Seratonin: I disagree with the multiple definitions concept, on the following basis. When a scientific subject is being discuss we should use scientific definitions. Likewise when discussing spirituality we should at least attempt to understand some theological parley. Unfortunately the WTS educated us with neither. I would suggest that if we can't be clear about what we're talking about we should probably consult a dictionary or hold our tongues. In this instance I agree with the definition of a theory that you posted. When I look at the facts (especially artifacts) they line up nicely in accordance with the evolution theory, to me and countless others. They also probably wouldn't be teaching it in schools if they weren't pretty sure about it. Unlike BA and the WTS I don't ascribe to the idea that "theory" means "unproven concept". The word for that is "hypothesis" and evolution is far beyond the hypothesis stage. Anyhow, regarding evolution and this thread, "that's about all I've gotta say about that".

208

Self Deceit and Faith.

by hillary_step in

jw
friends

this thread is inspired by a comment made on another thread, but i thought it would make an interesting discussion.. self deceit is described as a "misconception that is favorable to the person who holds it".

my premise is that faith is a form of self-deceit - lying to oneself.. so, i would ask of the "faithful" the following questions and would request that they be read carefully to ensure no that there is no misunderstanding of purpose.. 1) in what way is faith not self-deception?.

2) is a person who has faith in a god that you do not believe in, say for example siva, practicing a form of self-deception?.

LittleToe

I've just stumbled across this thread and unfortunately am unlikely to find time to put enough into this reply, far less keep up with the thread, but as already stated it's completely up my alley. I'll just throw out a few thoughts in the hope that they contribute something to the mostly-worthy debate.

In the first instance it could be stated that we are all self-deluding, period. We take in the evidence of our senses and interpret it in a manner that makes sense to us. Our brains seek patterns, making continual comparisons with our previous memories. There's no guarantee that we are observing or interpreting things in the same manner as our contemporaries.

The beauty of the scientific method is that it seeks objectivity, at the very least by the consensus of repeatable experiments controlled by peer review. These are often conducted across the language divide. In this context it might be suggested that [Siva / Thor / Jehovah] are the same "object" that individuals interpret their subjective experiences as. Since "god" doesn't appear to turn tricks on command its awfully difficult to apply the usual scientific process, though. It would be akin to attempting to construct a rational model that would determine what a human would do in any given situation - its simply too complex.

I'm really sorry to see that the theory of evolution has been abused in this thread. It has little to do with belief in a deity. I'm quite content believing in both. I do have to state that it is definitely a "theory" rather than a fact, though. If we try to redefine words to suit our own ends then we are further deluding ourselves.

The bottom line is that generally speaking I agree with Hillary.

42

Is all religion in some way abusive?

by nvrgnbk in

jw
friends

i wish to thank writetoknow for prompting this question from his thread "hating religion is it bigotry?".

what has been your personal experience?.

consider the impressionable mind of the infant.. is it fair to indoctrinate them with dogma?.

LittleToe

MIT is a religious enclave to the god of science. Is it abusive?

125

I'm converting again.

by reneeisorym in

2 years ago i left jws.

i went to a baptist church because it was what my husband was.

i knew i wanted to go to church but which one i really didn't know yet.. two years later, i think i have made up my mind: presbyterian.. anyone have anything they want to share?

LittleToe

Seratonin:
You appear quite ignorant of the attitude of the majority of religionists, apparently maintaining the belief that they are as the JWs or as the JWs taught, while espousing your own beliefs in a manner and method akin to the JWs. Are you sure you haven't just exchanged one meme for another?

46

ARE YOU RELIGIOUS BECAUSE YOU'RE AFRAID OF DEATH?

by Dansk in

jw
friends

i've been thinking about the above question a lot lately!

i see so many so-called religious people being hypocritical to the religion they profess to have faith in.

they may say "hey, i'm only human", as if this excuses their behaviour.

LittleToe

I can only assume that Satanus is refering to holding anything precious. Isn't the ultimate point of Buddhism to let go of all attachment?

LT, of the "intently interested in where this resurrected thread might go" class

122

Who on this Board would love to get rid of Organized Religion?

by restrangled in

jw
friends

imho....it all needs to go.

its influencing everything in this world every and anywhere.

from the saudies, to the people in irag, iran and anywhere else our sons will need to be sent.. our current president claims he is influenced along with the former prime minister of england by religious beliefs.. there is the huge evangelical influence that got bush and the mess he made who put them in to begin with.. we have the jw's causing absolute havic in anyone's lives connected with this stupidity.. it goes on and on and on.

LittleToe

...can all be criticized and debated openly without people getting their knickers in too much of a twist.

As can religion, in most civilised countries...

All religions are based on irrational ideas for which there is no proof.

As are many of the standards upon which we base our lives e.g. video ratings reducing an adolescents tendancy to violence, ten years being an adequate sentence for manslaughter but twenty years for grand larceny, etc, etc, etc...

That's bad enough.

Bad enough for what? Bad enough for you to want to curb their personal choices to congregate and discuss a philosophy of common interest? People will think their own thoughts, regardless of how misguided you may think them to be. They will also find a way to discuss them with like-minded individuals. Its a very human condition...

Towards those who brandish broad-brush generalisation and express a desire to restrict personal liberties and freedoms I just shake my head in wonder. Did we learn nothing from being in a high-control group?

122

Who on this Board would love to get rid of Organized Religion?

by restrangled in

jw
friends

imho....it all needs to go.

its influencing everything in this world every and anywhere.

from the saudies, to the people in irag, iran and anywhere else our sons will need to be sent.. our current president claims he is influenced along with the former prime minister of england by religious beliefs.. there is the huge evangelical influence that got bush and the mess he made who put them in to begin with.. we have the jw's causing absolute havic in anyone's lives connected with this stupidity.. it goes on and on and on.

LittleToe

As I wrote on another thread:

For those who think of all religion as merely a cult they should probably also examine their judicial systems, education systems, parental mores and TV/Movie regulatory mechanisms. Everything in life is designed to regulate us socially to an acceptable "norm". Religion is only one facet of that, but one that many people find useful psychologically, emotionally and socially.

As with totalitarian political regimes, there are extreme versions of religion. The thing most of us here hold in common is that we've been exposed to one of those extremes. I guess that it would be understandable for someone to mistrust authority if they came from a country that had suffered a dictatorship, but it doesn't necessarily follow that their opinions about all governments are unbiased and realistic. Likewise with ourselves. All governments and religions have faults, but all are not the same.

Just my 2p