this question became an off-topic sidetrack in another thread.
i thought it might be worth some debate so posted here .
the debate is basically between mainstream geological understanding of the earth's history and "young earth creationism" in particular with how the evidence relates to the occurrence of a global flood in the recent past.. a couple of points from the yec website www.icr.org are raised as examples in order to kick things off .
I just need to test everything, just dont want to get duped again.
Indeed we do the prisoner . . . and that's an admirable attitude you have . . . ironically, one that would get you DF'd in WT world. Indoctrination is a powerful influence and not quickly gotten over.
If you too are a new arrival . . . may I extend a welcome also.
here is the promised debate.
the subject is whether or not god has an organization.
i'll start things simply:.
The bible accounts of how the Christians "organised" themselves . . . Paul's letters etc . . . contain as much about the strife such organisation caused as the benefits.
To me they are a warning as to the folly of organisation . . . not a "pattern" for the rest of us.
Where does the Bible say that ALL future followers of Christ MUST imitate the first century Christian "organisation"? I don't believe I've read that scripture.
The much touted founder of the WTS himself said . . . "Beware of Organisation . . . it is wholly unneccessary"
this question became an off-topic sidetrack in another thread.
i thought it might be worth some debate so posted here .
the debate is basically between mainstream geological understanding of the earth's history and "young earth creationism" in particular with how the evidence relates to the occurrence of a global flood in the recent past.. a couple of points from the yec website www.icr.org are raised as examples in order to kick things off .
Sorry to go on like this, but the flood is one of my personal pet peeves.
TallaulahB . . . yeah I kinda picked up on that . . . . understandable my friend, totally understandable.
First post . . . new here? . . . if so, a warm welcome to you!
firstly, i'm a study who initially believed every word of the jw's.
figured "no other religion takes the time and effort to help people understand the bible by publishing the watchtower and the other literature" not realizing that all it does is pick and choose scriptures to suit whatever sentence they'd just written, which can be done using any book, not just the bible.
i felt foolish, after that.. .
I have little doubt that i want to stop studying, but i feel bad for wasting someone's time.
DON'T feel bad about that . . . the truth is . . . your zealous study conductor has been wasting YOUR time!
I wasted 30 years of MY time with this cult and THEN developed a social anxiety disorder . . . if there is any more than three people in my house . . . I go for a walk. When that occurred I was dropped like the proverbial hot potato . . . and gossipped about.
Just be glad they haven't wasted half your life . . . tell them your done and don't give a reason . . . then they have nothing to counter with.
Farkels wit may be "sharp" . . . but he's right . . . they are a dangerous cult . . . nothing to feel guilty about.
i made the final step the other day.. i donated blood.. .
i've been meaning to do it for ages, just never gotten around to it.
felt absolutely no guilt or akwardness at all.
I can't donate anything . . . even when I'm dead . . . hepC+
But my humble thanks to all of you who do . . . I might well need a new liver one day.
this question became an off-topic sidetrack in another thread.
i thought it might be worth some debate so posted here .
the debate is basically between mainstream geological understanding of the earth's history and "young earth creationism" in particular with how the evidence relates to the occurrence of a global flood in the recent past.. a couple of points from the yec website www.icr.org are raised as examples in order to kick things off .
the only point that has had any impact on my thinking has been made byUNSHACKLED, NO means of propulsion
A desire for truth and further learning is a great means of propulsion . . . . it can have a real impact on your thinking. Don't restrict yourself to only the points made here . . . use them as propulsion . . . do some deeper research, is my respectful suggestion. Then some of the other quite valid points made here will begin to have greater meaning perhaps.
the thread started by someone else that was asking about "local needs" talks that are given and the people who need to hear them are never there, got me to thinking.. i remember an elder giving a talk on local needs on "praising jehovah with your valuable things.
" .......this was the same brother who everyone in the hall knew had just bought a new lincoln town car.
his wife was a regular pioneer, and he would not allow the car do be driven out in service.
Our PO was giving a "special needs" talk on saving for a new KH. It amounted to no more than a brow-beating on how poorly the fund was progressing.
At one point he said the dopiest thing I've ever heard, he said . . ."$7000 in two years! . . . I could have saved that on my own!
You guessed it . . . a brother who remained unidentified was heard to say from the back . . . "Well why didn't you then?"
At least he was dumb enough to be open about his hypocrisy I suppose.
''jehovahs visible organization can use you, but can get along without you too.
fruitless ones are eventually pruned off and never missed as new ones are grafted in''.. ok... who can find the wt this gem of love is contained in?.
just thought it might be fun to get people digging into the library... when looking for stuff you come across other real interesting stuff.. oz.
Jehovah’s visible organization can use you, but can get along without you too. But you cannot get along without it. Fruitless ones are eventually pruned off and never missed as new ones are grafted in.
Wow! . . . I doubt we'd see such an overt declaration of intent today!
Nevertheless . . . this should be posted above the reception desk at WT Headquarters as their "mission statement" . . . it's the closest thing to "the truth" I've ever heard from them.
looking forward to comparing the study edition vs. the simplified edition in upcoming months.
the grip is tightening!
more control!
Rank&FileGuy has introduced an interesting feature regarding the introduction of the simplified version.
I don't believe it is for the purpose it would have the average JW believe . . .
Many JW's (and I did this) play with the words of the WT study articles from time to time to avoid a strict interpretation of them. Usually this is on account of wanting to preserve some degree of freedom of conscience or previously enjoyed liberty.
The simplified version will scuttle this. Any room for varied interpretation will be resolved by referring to the simplified version. It will in reality become the ultimate "reference material" for ALL JW's
I wonder how long it will take for it to be hauled out at a JC or disciplinary meeting . . . if it hasn't already.
It's definitely a tighter control mechanism . . . a hammer to beat with . . . with more weight in the head.
had some interesting chats with my daughter today about whether she believes everything she hears at the meetings and reads in the watchtower.. turns out she does.. until i pressed on a few subjects... turns out she does not think worldly people are bad, that the wt is wrong for blanket statements about how evil they all are, that she does not think it is right that they have failed predicting the end for over a hundred years and disagrees when they keep pushing the end,.
and i find this all rather alarming!.
because although some lights are firing (and i mean that in a nice way!).
I feel your approach is reasonably sound Oz . . . simply encouraging her to use critical thinking . . . on any matter.
I always avoid the term "critical thinking" as the label is used often in XJW circles . . . but you can still teach her the process.
She is rapidly taking ownership of her own mind and decision making at that age, albeit inexperienced and vulnerable to cult indoctrination, and her eventual decision regarding the JW's will have to be a product of her own conclusions.
Direct questioning of JW teaching and beliefs is fraught with danger . . . teaching her to have a questioning mind however, is more likely to keep her closer and bring about a favorable result in the end.
Well, that's my feelings anyway . . . keep doing what you're doing in a way that is not too full on . . . cos you're right, her future is at stake.
All the best with her.
