JonathanH

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Posts by JonathanH

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  6

  Hello God. Welcome to Hell. (The Easter Edition - eggs inside)

  by gubberningbody in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  easter - the lord has risen - a discussion on "rights" and "realities".

  there are n+1 ways to look at this:.

  1. the traditional way, which would be to say that as creator you get to make the rules.. .

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  JonathanH

  
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  43

  Does your personal NEED or WEAKNESS give you the right to demand?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  let's start at the old desert island, shall we?.

  a group of survivors (just like the tv show!

  ) are marooned on an island with no way off.they are all sorts of people with various strengths and weaknesses.. the strongest among them do the hardest work.

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  JonathanH

  Wontleave illustrates this view, by saying that people that aren't willing to be valuable to society go work in retail and blue collar jobs. But what if some anti-ayn rand wrote a book where all the retail workers, roofers, constructions workers, janitors, and factory workers decided to show how valuable they were by not showing up. People can hold up signs saying "who is joe six pack?".

  It's a symbioses, the world would shut down without the retail workers, blue collar guys, factory workers, just as much as it would shut down without the engineers, scientists and entrepreneur.

  The ability to label this side of the economic chain as not being valuable is classicism and is one of the last few acceptable prejudices in our society.
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  43

  Does your personal NEED or WEAKNESS give you the right to demand?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  let's start at the old desert island, shall we?.

  a group of survivors (just like the tv show!

  ) are marooned on an island with no way off.they are all sorts of people with various strengths and weaknesses.. the strongest among them do the hardest work.

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  JonathanH

  Ayn rand's philosophy as presented in Atlus shrugged and any of her other books was flawed on the basis that it assumes an infinite supply of "Parasites" to take advantage of. The gist of John Galt's shpeel was "what if all the smart and talented people left? Wouldn't you parasites be screwed then!" But it never seems to ask what would happen to all the "smart and talented people" if all the "parasites" disappeared. Of course in rand's world the "parasites" are the ordinary worker, the person who isn't engineering the future, starting corporations, has become wealthy, ect, but rather just showing up and doing their job for a paycheck. The answer is that the "Galt's" of the world would be just as screwed if the parasites left. The corporation doesn't exist without the average joe six pack, the engineering doesn't get done if there isn't someone to do the manufacturing.

  Even in your example of starting a company you make the assumption that you can just fire everyone and get new people and the only way this won't occur is that the people create an evil "union" and threaten you with violence if you try to do it. Which is a nonsensical answer that tries to paint collective bargaining as a sinister enterprise. But it doesn't factor in how damaging it would be to the company to try and replace and retrain every employee, and what if the next wave of employees also collectively bargain to improve their lot? Is this wrong? Your company won't exist if you don't have these parasites working, and it will destroy the company. So in reality aren't they the reason for your success just as much as you are?

  The reality is that rand's view of "parasites" is actually a view of "symbiotes". Two organisms that need each other in order to function. The John Galts of the world would be screwed without the average worker, and the average joe would be screwed without smart talented people crafting the future. As much as the Galts may relish that their success and wealth is a result of their own brilliance, it is a result of their brilliance combined with the efforts of people willing to put their back into helping a good idea get off the ground in exchange for compensation. Ayn Rand describes a symbiotic system where both organisms need the other to survive, but one claims to be the important part of the symbioses that doesn't really need the other, it's just a gift being taken advantage of.

  As for your island example, it is a different ethical problem, but with similar themes. The answer to it is simply that "fairness" and "Morality" have the tendency to act in different directions. What is fair is often times immoral, and what is moral is often times unfair. It may not be fair for the weaker people on the island to survive despite their weakness, but it would be immoral to let them starve to death on the basis of their weakness. The question you really need to ask is, which is more important for society? Fairness or Morality? Do we want a society based on a darwinian ideal that flourishes on destruction of the weak, or do we want one based on compassion, even if that compassion creates a drag on progress and wealth?

  Of course as an atheist, I speak of morality as being a sense of empathy for other living things that fuels a desire to not see others harmed or do harm to others. Which in this case would mean not wanting other people to starve to death, especially when having the ability to feed them.
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  36

  Alcohol is not harmless.

  by StopTheTears in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  americans drink beer as a recreational activity, which is no different than abusing prescription drugs.

  the people who laugh and scoff at preaching against beer have never stood over the graves of a mother and child killed by a drunk driver.

  i'll never forget that little casket being lowered alongside the mother's casket, because some drunk driver killed them.

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  JonathanH

  I'm sorry you've been hurt by alcohol, but the fact that some have abused it does not make it an evil. Cars kill people even without alcohol, so does fast food, pollution, and any number of other things that exist in the modern world. But that doesn't mean everything should be banned. Sometimes the price of a free society is that some people will abuse that freedom in stupid ways. You sound bitter and angry, and I think you are lashing out as some kind of coping mechanism, and your bitterness towards society I think is a symptom of your pain. But this raging at and fear mongering people on the internet isn't going to help. You may need to see a therapist to help you cope. I wish you the best.
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  59

  Descended from animal? Explain language.

  by StopTheTears in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if, as evolutionists claim, all of mankind evolved from the same primitive life-source, then how did we end up with 7,000 different languages?

  did one gorilla get angry at another gorilla and decide to start a new language?

  i'm intrigued to know.. .

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  JonathanH

  I believe it's called poe's law. When an ideology or culture becomes so absurd that satire and reality are hard to differentiate. Merely stating the beliefs is enough to make people think "haha, good one, you jokester!"

  I can't really tell if this is meant to be in earnest or is merely one of those examples of stating a legitimate belief just so we have a larf at the absurdity of it.
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  90

  I called the KH- "the Memorial is tomorrow night, right?

  by moshe in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i called just before noon today- an elder promptly answered the phone.

  i told him, " uh, memorial is tomorrow night, right?".

  passover starts tomorrow night, after sundown!

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  JonathanH

  Nice ass kicking, wontleave. I always enjoy watching a good smackdown. I wonder if egg will have a response.
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  6

  Kids doing the dirty work...

  by MrFreeze in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  a lot of times i noticed that jw's would have their little ones hold the magazines while out at the door.

  i guess they figured it would make the householder more likely to take the trash.. well my parents tried to pull the same thing on me.

  only with the memorial.

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  JonathanH

  My sister tried the same tactic. After I was outted, I got an e-mail from my "niece" who was 11 at the time, expressing her dissapointment in me, and asking how I could hurt the family so much. The language used was clearly not written by an 11 year old and it was pretty apparent that my sister just used her e-mail address to try and guilt me into coming back, knowing I wouldn't respond harshly to my young neice. I just ignored it because I was too disgusted to respond in any way.

  But I do remember service and how anyone with a child would have the child hand them the magazines with the expressed purpose of making the householder feel to guilty/awkward to refuse a child. Children are just another tool, and no religion should use them to propogate their message.
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  29

  Can someone PLEASE scan the Watchtower dated 7-15-11 and PM me. Im going public. People need to be warned about this CULT. Im done sitting on the sidelines watching

  by foolsparadise in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  please send me the magazine in its entirety so it looks authentic and credible.

  i will be showing this article to all media types and news authorities.

  i have lost my family to this destructive cult in the past year.

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  JonathanH

  People care about what the media tells people to care about, Wontleave. If there is some massacre going on in a third world country and it's on some guy's blog, nobody cares. If there is a flood in some country and every 24 hour news network is covering it non stop, people break out their check books. People care about what they see in front of them. It kind of goes to the old quandry that if you saw a child drowning in a lake you wouldn't hesitate to jump in and save that child even if it meant ruining your nice shoes, the suit or dress your wearing, maybe a cell phone in your pocket, and have to pay to replace them, or just not have them. But if a child is starving half way around the globe, you can easily justify buying the nice shoes, the cell phone, and suit, instead spending tha money to get that child some food, medicine and an education. We care about what we see. The media shows us what to care about. If Fox news, NBC, and CNN were all doing a running series about the cult practices of the JWs, people would care.

  However I think it's a ridiculous long shot that any news network would think that this is a story they can get people riled up enough over to bring in ratings. Because ultimately that's how news networks decide what to show people. Is this a story we can pump up enough to get everyone to care about it and tune in to our coverage, and thus earn revenue on advertising? All stories compete for space and air time and whichever editors deem the most profitable are deemed the most important, and get on the news.

  I agree that most of the people that care about this are here and not in an anchor chair unfortunately. It's a long shot, and I certainly won't discourage foolsparadise from trying. But I would tell him to temper his expectations. Scientology is a far more obvious, corrupt and insane religious organization and it only occasionally gets a blurb from a journalist exploring it. I wouldn't expect any hard hitting exposes over a couple of magazines telling families to watch out for ambiguous liars, and shunning members.
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  73

  Is it the only True religion?

  by cupcakekourtney88 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  like the question is jehovah witness the true religion?

  is all others false, what do yall think?.

  i am confuse and just wanting to know others thoughts??

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  JonathanH

  My model is the exact opposite of illogical. It is firmly grounded in logic. If it's illogical, then you can show where the logic breaks down, if it's false then you can point to where it's false. That's the beauty of reason and logic.

  Cheezit, has already adressed your view of muslims. Also, I am not a muslim defender, I am an atheist. I think alot of religions are inherently violent despicable things, because they are traditions from a far less civil time. Holy books are just sock puppets to justify actions. Good people will find good scriptures, and bad people will find one to justify their actions as well. Leading up to, during, and even after the civil war the bible was used to both justify and condemn slavery. Give people a large enough tome and they will find what they want in it. Confirmation bias at work.
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  15

  IT'S OFFICIAL - I LEFT THE BORG!

  by doubtful in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i had my "awakening" about a year ago, after spending my entire adolescent life feeling as if i was the only one among my associates with my head screwed on straight.

  i was appalled by the nearly universal ignorance and deplorable close-mindedness and stupidty of the jws, the arbitrary dismissal of all scientific evidence as mere "human speculation", etc.

  the 2008 change in the definition of the "generation" (at age 18) is what made me seriously commit to an investigation of my long held beliefs, a belief system and world view that had been permanently graphed onto my still developing brain as an infant.. some things the bee hive subscribe to are so irrational, yet i still held firmly to the belief that they must have the "truth", since i still believed in the bible as the inerrant, completely inspired word of god, and jws were the religion that most stringently adhered to actual bible teachings in a majority of cases - ie - no hellfire, no immortal soul, no trinity, etc... after an exhaustive study of the organization's origins in the russell and rutherford eras, and their history of constantly revised doctrines, failed predictions, and absurd beliefs subsequently abandoned and revised only after the passing of time deemed them impossible, i came to the conclusion that they were not "god's channel", and they certainly had no claim to exclusivity as "god's only chosen people who would survive destruction".... so that lead me to the next logical assumption..if not even the jws have the truth, and all the other christian denominations grossly misrepresent biblical teachings and distort the teachings of christ, and compromise on the principles he taughts us to abide by...then god has no earthly organization..he has abandoned us to our own devices...he has left us all alone, and he has left us in this state of affairs for at least the last 2,000 years... after moving beyond the the typical jw dismisal of all science that could possibly contradict the bible and their beliefs, i took up an objective, unbiased, study of science...and what i discovered is that without any presupositional limitations to one's critical analysis of the fact...science's theory of evolution is the best explanation for the diversity and nature of biological life around us...i also discovered that although there is dispute among scientists as to the explanation for evolution or the origin of life itself...that there is no dispute as to the validity of evolution.. the fact that evolution happened and continues to happen before our very eyes is incontrovertible...absolutely indisputable when objectively evaluating all the mountains of evidence..multiple lines of evidence that all converge at one point...common descent..as but one example - the anatomical distinction between homo sapiens sapiens and homo sapien neanderthalis emerge at a certain point in the fossil record..and not coincidentally the mapping of the neanderthal and modern human genomes point to a genetic divergence at the exact same time as the fossil record indicates!.

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  JonathanH

  Congratulations. Many here, myself included have gone through the same tumultous period and come out the other side with their lives in tact. It will be diffucult, no doubt. But honestly you've been through the a big part of the upleasantness, and you sound ready to begin your life in earnest.

  I shared many of your experiences, my wife sobbing and angry at me, my family which now refuses to speak to me telling me how much I hurt or disapointed them. But like you, I could not live a lie. It's been over a year since the elders hunted me down and told me I was "disassociated" (meaning I was being disfellowshipped, but it was "my choice"), and I've come out on the other side in one piece, a few bruises here and there, but better off as a whole.

  Trust me, they aren't right. They have about as much odds of being right as scientologists, or the Heaven's Gate Cult. In a few years, you may still have some scars, but you'll have gotten over the fear of "what if they are right". The kind of programming they put into you will take some time to undo, but it can be undone. If you feel you need conselling, by all means do what is necessary.

  You are not alone, you're doing what's right, and I hope the best for you. If you ever need to chat, or just wax philosophical on some deism, agnosticism and atheism (there are ways around infinite regress, if you ever want to chat it up about it), or just anything you're going through, always feel free to drop me a line. [email protected]

  Again, best of luck. You have plenty of friends here.