That's not the way I think it should, that's the way people claim it does. Until you ask them to do something meaningful with their talents then all of the sudden "it get's fuzzy."
JonathanH
JoinedPosts by JonathanH
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167
I am amazed at the ignorance............
by Night Owl ini read with great interest the evil spirits thread, amazed at the ignorance on this forum concerning the occult.. if you do not believe in the spirit world, you are certainly akin to toothless hillbillies.
good for moonshine making, cousin marrying and not much else.. both the usa and the russians continue to pursue the occult, following in the foorsteps of nazi germany.
they are not ignorant people, such as yourselves.. hopefully, you non-believers will slowly breed yourselves out of the population, since you are the ones holding back progress, with your precious "science" which is really bullshit in disguise.. so tell me, what separates you "intellectuals" from those so called ancient ignorants?
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167
I am amazed at the ignorance............
by Night Owl ini read with great interest the evil spirits thread, amazed at the ignorance on this forum concerning the occult.. if you do not believe in the spirit world, you are certainly akin to toothless hillbillies.
good for moonshine making, cousin marrying and not much else.. both the usa and the russians continue to pursue the occult, following in the foorsteps of nazi germany.
they are not ignorant people, such as yourselves.. hopefully, you non-believers will slowly breed yourselves out of the population, since you are the ones holding back progress, with your precious "science" which is really bullshit in disguise.. so tell me, what separates you "intellectuals" from those so called ancient ignorants?
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JonathanH
I mean think about it, why does a world filled with all kinds of supernatural phenomenon look an awful lot like a world where they don't exist? If the answer to that question requires a lot of circuitous excuses for each supernatural phenomenon, then it's probably a good hint that it's all BS.
If psychics exists why is it always chainsmoking hillbillies winning the lottery? It's never a guy that says "Well, yeah I'm psychic. I mean I was working at walmart and then I was all like 'WTF, why am I stocking shelves? I can see the future! LOLZ' so I bought a lottery ticket. don't know why I didn't do it sooner." If psychics existed, there would be no lottery. It wouldn't be profitable. Psychics would be winning everyday. The powerball would never get over a few thousand dollars because twenty people would win it every day and split it among them. I mean hell, it's a two dollar ticket, if you make twenty bucks you might as well buy it while you're getting gas. All gambling would be rendered unprofitable. That's not to even mention the economic havoc of having psychic stock brokers. But amazingly all psychics on the planet seem pretty content to just let you pay them twenty bucks to tell you that you might get laid next week, and here are your lucky numbers. Also, I bent this spoon.
Then there are mediums, people that speak to the dead. They can even find specific people in the spirit world. Really? Then why the fuck don't they go tell a historian they have abe lincoln on the line? I mean they could produce verifiable unknown stories from antiquity. History would cease to be a mystery. We'd be able to find every pharoah's tomb, every burial ground. Businesses could consult with the great economists and brilliant minds of history that could stay in the loop. Just have the medium give Adam Smith a course in modern economics and let his brilliant mind go to work. Einstein could have tenure at a university. But no, these people's contribution to the world is to have some shmuck pay twenty bucks and tell him that granny says "i love you. Heaven is great, can't wait to see you."
What about consulting with super intelligent powerful demonic forces? Apparently there are people out there just summoning them and befriending them willy nilly. Why not put some of that super intelligence and power to work? Every company should have a satanist on staff to summon demons. "Hey dave, we're pretty swamped. Could you get 'Allegoth the one true visage of pain' to work out the kinks in this subroutine? We've got a deadline to hit." What? The demons wouldn't stoop to such menial tasks? Why not? Are they too busy knocking over your books, closing your doors, and blowing out your candles? It's not like they've got so much going on. I mean all dave had to do was burn some incense draw a few circles on the floor and say "I summon thee" three times and the demons are all like "fuck, I guess I will go chill out with dave for a while. His books seem pretty unsteady, I guess that'll give me something to do while I'm there." Why wouldn't every government be using demonic assassins? You don't need a navy seal team to get Bin Laden, you just give dave a piece of chalk, a gift card to "bed bath and beyond," and fifteen minutes and he'll find some demon that's bored enough to go axe somebody. But no, these people that communicate with demons just want to get emo haircuts, listen to the cure, and cut their arms because their girlfriend broke up with them on account of "drummer" not being a "real job", whatever that means.
If supernatural phenomenon were real like people claim, the world would be a fantastically different place. But the world looks exactly like these things are just made up. Despite the prevelance of these stories, they seem to have zero impact on any real aspect of the world. This should be a clue. They are artifacts of human psychology, they are not a reality that have an effect on the world we live in.
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167
I am amazed at the ignorance............
by Night Owl ini read with great interest the evil spirits thread, amazed at the ignorance on this forum concerning the occult.. if you do not believe in the spirit world, you are certainly akin to toothless hillbillies.
good for moonshine making, cousin marrying and not much else.. both the usa and the russians continue to pursue the occult, following in the foorsteps of nazi germany.
they are not ignorant people, such as yourselves.. hopefully, you non-believers will slowly breed yourselves out of the population, since you are the ones holding back progress, with your precious "science" which is really bullshit in disguise.. so tell me, what separates you "intellectuals" from those so called ancient ignorants?
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JonathanH
yeah, the lightbulb, indoor toilet, and everything else you use in life. What has demonology given us? What great advancements to society has spiritism given us? Where is your ghost powered laptop, and your international telepathy network? The legion of psychic stock brokers and bankers? Oh wait, that's all shit math and science did for humanity while ignorant people were using battery powered flashlights ward off ghosts while wearing their factory produced snuggies with their digital TV was blaring a show about the moon landing in the background. Science is clearly the stupid part of that sentence. If all of this spirit and psychic nonsense were true, where is it? A free market economy would have great interest in using these advancements in our understanding of how the universe works for profit.
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How do you feel now? EVOLUTION OR CREATION??
by chuckyy inas jws we were no doubt staunch creationists.
but how do you feel now??
do you still opt for creation or do you now feel evolution offers the right answer.
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JonathanH
I laugh at the illogic of the "life comes from life" argument, because life obviously began. Even creationists believe that at some point, biological life did not exist, and then inorganic matter (dust) turned into organic matter. So it's not a matter of can nonlife become life, it's a matter of what processes are necessary to do that. Even if a creator deity personally took inorganic matter, and turned it into living organic matter, the processes of chemistry still apply.
So now you have the argument that there is no known process for inorganic matter to become living organic matter, but both sides insist that it did happen in the past (obviously.) One supposes that chemistry and physics can at least hypothetically do it, the other supposes that an invisible wizard with distinctly human characteristics is necessary for it. And some how the latter is supposed to be a more likely and cogent argument for how this occurs, despite it's highly unparsimonious addition of an invisible wizard that can't be accounted for, or explained, and the existence of whom is supposed to be assumed. Why am I supposed to find the second option more compelling than the first again?
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Atheists..... throwing the baby out with the bath water ?
by snare&racket inthis saying permeates this forum with higher frequency than most.
despite being an open atheist amongst lots of religious people in my life, i have never been accused of doing this and i have never heard this saying attributed to my choice... appart from here.. i thought it would be best to clarify why i (and i assume others) decided to leave the bible behind after leaving the wt society.. realising the wt society was wrong desroyed my world, for me it meant so much.
i had given so much to it too, it just had to be true!
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JonathanH
This is a post I made in a spinoff topic from this one that died pretty much immediately. But it's relevant here too, so I'll just reprint it.
The problem with religion is that it is a humanity that insists on being taken as a science. If it were actually about love, and empathy, and oneness or some such, then it could go off and do it's own thing. But insists on making fact based assessments of the universe and itself...until somebody tries to bring facts and logic in to counter it's absurdist claims, then it retreats to the "humanities" way of thinking until the conversation is over...then it starts making fact based claims again.
It's like an art critic admiring van gogh's "The Starry night" and then insisting that we all go to the stars when we die, and that is literally what happens, stars are just the souls of dead people, we die then fly up and become a star, this painting demonstrates the truth of that. Until somebody brings up how nonsensical that is, points out what stars really are, reasons how illogical that is based on what we know of the universe, and biology, then the art critic responds with a curt "well, you just don't understand art. Go get a color wheel, study some impressionism, and come back when you're ready to have a real conversation." That is religion.
If the big monotheistic religions didn't base their dogmas on a wizard making the universe, specifically creating this planet just for us, then guiding biological evolution to produce humans (or worse yet, poofing humans into existence), and then all of the miraculous and superstitious nonsense that is picked and chosen after that, then it could rest happily unmolested as a branch of philosophy. But it doesn't, it insists on continually demanding that empiricism bow before it's bronze age mythologies in order to get to the philosophy aspect of it.
So yes, there are things that science is not qualified to talk about, namely the subjective areas of human thought covered by philosophy, art, music and literature. Unfortunately religion is not content to live in that realm, and until it is, science will continue to kick its ass.
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beyond rationalism
by maksym injust wanted to know if could something exist and be true without empiricism or science.
so the question is like love.
can we empiricanly define love or morals or ethics without empiricism.. .
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JonathanH
Human abstractions belong to the realm of the humanities, where as reality belongs to the sciences.
However, I am guessing this is an extension of your other conversation where you said atheism was the result of spiritual abuse, and that christianity is beyond empiricism. This is B.S.
The problem with religion is that it is a humanity that insists on being taken as a science. If it were actually about love, and empathy, and oneness or some such, then it could go off and do it's own thing. But insists on making fact based assessments of the universe and itself...until somebody tries to bring facts and logic in to counter it's absurdist claims, then it retreats to the "humanities" way of thinking until the conversation is over...then it starts making fact based claims again.
It's like an art critic admiring van gogh's "The Starry night" and then insisting that we all go to the stars when we die, and that is literally what happens, stars are just the souls of dead people, we die then fly up and become a star. Until somebody brings up how nonsensical that is, then the art critic responds with a curt "well, you just don't understand art. Go get a color wheel, study some impressionism, and come back when you're ready to have a real conversation." That is religion.
If the big monotheistic religions didn't base their dogmas on a wizard making the universe, specifically creating this planet just for us, then guiding biological evolution to produce humans (or worse yet, poofing humans into existence), and then all of the miraculous nonsense that is picked and chosen after that, then it could rest happily unmolested as a branch of philosophy. But it doesn't, it insists on continually demanding that empiricism bow before it's bronze age mythologies in order to get to the philosophy aspect of it.
So yes, there are things that science is not qualified to talk about, namely the subjective areas of human thought covered by philosophy, art, music and literature. Unfortunately religion is not content to live in that realm, and until it is, science will continue to kick its ass.
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University after leaving the Watchtower?
by SweetBabyCheezits inhello, you sexy sassy posters of jwn.
i'm starting this thread in the hopes of finding... uh, hope.... and sharing it with others who are in a similar boat.
i'm looking for input from anyone who meets the following criteria:.
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JonathanH
I fit all criteria except I don't have any kids. Though I will add that I didn't even graduate High school thanks to my witness up bringing, I got a GED instead.
Knowledge and education are paramount to me, and it was very distressing to me after I woke up that I had so little formal education, even if I was an avid reader.
I am 27 and in my second semester earning a degree in Electrical Engineering with a minor in Mathematics, which I have yet to decide if I will turn into a second major, or if I will add a second minor. I definitely am not made of money, but student loans are currently covering my academic costs (mostly, I have had to pay just a bit out of pocket for a couple of text books.) My goal is to both improve my lot in life, giving myself a useful set of skills and abilities in the job market, to improve myself as a person by getting a rounded education and a greater mental discipline, as well as just the pride of having earned a degree (or two.)
It does require a tremendous amount of effort and dedication, and I have little free time. But in all honesty, I am doing exactly what I would want to do with my free time if I had any.; study, learn, write, and better myself in general. I could think of no better way to spend my mornings and evenings than writing critical textual analysis of a book I'm reading for English class, or visiting local art galleries and writing about it for my Art Appreciation class, or studying diligently to solve math and physics problems.
It is immensely rewarding, especially after getting that "A" on a paper I busted my ass on, or passing a major exam with flying colors, or sometimes just stopping and looking back at how far I've come. Only four years ago I was miserably knocking on doors and handing out magazines in a religion I strongly suspected was a lie, washing windows for an elder that profited off the ignorance and sense of obligation of the members of his own congregation. And now, I work for a company with nary a witness in sight, studying math, art, physics, literature, biology, sociology and I have years of this ahead of me. I worked hard and changed my circumstances and that alone has been worth the price of admission.
Given that I am married (to a witness girl,) I do have to balance my time. I always make sure to at least once a week take her out to a movie, or dinner, or shopping or some such, and make sure to sit down and have dinner with her with not books or study materials. It's a balancing act, but it can be done. Even better, my being in college has inspired her to go to college. I am helping her get prepared to enroll part time for the next fall semester. She isn't going to go full time or anything, and isn't even sure what it is sure wants to work towards, but she wants to go and learn and think. Being passionate about education is contagious. She is going to take just one class for the fall semester (which we should be able to pay out of pocket) and she is excited thinking about what class she will choose.
I can't recomend strongly enough the value of going to college. It makes me sad to see how many worldly high school kids go to college and just spend the whole time drinking and partying, or maybe just not taking it seriously. They don't know what an amazing gift it is, and how much it can improve us as individuals and our lot in life. Go to school. It's not always easy, but it's the best decision you can make.
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Evil Spirits
by LizLA indoes anyone on this forum have knowledge about casting out demons or evil spirits?
there's at least two of them that have been harrasing me even before i was a jw.
i recently attended a deliverance church to find some help but it was apparent that the holy spirit was missing from that church.
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JonathanH
The best way to get rid of anything supernatural is to try to scientifically document it. Get some cameras, befriend some skeptics and hang out with them, and viola your life will suddenly be very mundane, ordinary and oddly spirit free. Nothing scares supernatural creatures more than attempting to procure empirical evidence of their existence. They disappear without a trace.
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So my JW wife cheated on me. Need some help or at least a sympathetic ear.
by JonathanH ini have neither friends nor family to turn to.
the result of being born in a cult.
but i need to talk about this.
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JonathanH
I don't mind that the douche's wife found my post, I have no problem with her knowing the details I know. What I find wierd is how she found it. I have a sneaking suspicion that an elder may have given it to her. That is the only thing I can think of. An elder from my hall lurking here for gross eldery reasons, sees the story, my wife confesses to the elders, he puts two and two together, realized that this post was actually from me (assuming he didn't know already, I do use my first name herem and I have told my story here), and then decided to secrectly get involved in an inappropriate way. He could just look up the wife, anonomously send her my post, or just tell her to keep it a secret where she got it from. I know what is in my post and I still can't google anything that leads me here. I find it hard to believe a woman I've never met could do it. Elders have a way of sticking their noses in where they don't belong out of some gross sense of entitlement and piety. It wouldn't surprise me if elders monitor this site for perverse reasons.
Are there other explanations that are more reasonable that I'm not thinking of? Is anybody else able to do a google search that leads them here?
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So my JW wife cheated on me. Need some help or at least a sympathetic ear.
by JonathanH ini have neither friends nor family to turn to.
the result of being born in a cult.
but i need to talk about this.
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JonathanH
Little update:
Here's an odd side note. The other guy's wife found my post here some how. After my wife went and told the bosses at work, and me and ect, he ended up telling his wife (apparently they weren't in the middle of a divorce...not sure about now.) But after that she somehow found my story here, despite the total lack of names, or names of businesses, my last name isn't even here. But some how she found it. Does that seem wierd to anyone but me? My wife didn't know about this place, or that I wrote anything, but some how this random woman I've never met that has nothing to do with the witnesses found this. That baffles me. I tried to google things I thought may lead me here, information she would have access to and I can't seem to find anything that would lead me to this topic.
Anyway, the other guy's actions make me feel much better about how my wife handled it. He only confessed to his spouse once the cat was out of the bag, and he consistently has tried to lie to her about what exactly happened. He even went so far as to contact my wife and ask her to lie for him because he wife was going to try and talk to my wife. She didn't lie for him and told the other woman exactly what happened, feeling that she owed that much, and that it was a necessary act of penitence. I think seeing how these two have approached it helps convince me that my wife really does feel like she made a mistake, and wants to fix it. The other guy seems only interested in saving face.
Things continue to improve between my wife and myself. I am passed the blind anger, and depression. I am not giving her a free ride, but I have no intention of vindictively punishing her for what's she's done. We continue to communicate and I believe things will be just fine. They need time to heal, but she is making it very clear that she will do whatever work is necessary to fix our relationship. She has made no attempt to hide anything, gave me her e-mail password, lets me check her phone if that's what I want. I believe she genuinely hates what she did, and wants things to get better.