Posts by JonathanH

195

Theistic Evolution

by cofty in

thoughtful christians including scientists like francis collins and kenneth miller accept the evidence for evolution unconditionally.

the only thing that distinguishes their understanding of life from the views of dawkins is that they believe god planned and started the process intentionally.. just a word about the subtle but vital distinction between "theistic evolution" and "intelligent design".... over-simplifications alert - intelligent design is creationism in disguise.

it is a modern twist on the "paley's watch" argument.

JonathanH

Theistic evolution is the modern march of liberal theism to deism. Watch Richard Dawkin's conversation with Catholic Astronomer George Coyne on youtube to see what I mean. Essentially all of god's previous roles in shaping the universe are becoming either superflous, ethically dubious, or logically implausible to the extent that those who are at least moderately educated find it illogical to assume god actually formed anything in the universe by hand. Rather it is becoming more in vogue to simply assign him the properties of a deistic creator, one that simply got the ball rolling and then backed off, and then give him some culturally relevant anthropormorphised characteristics.

"Ok god didn't form the earth, or make humans, or anything like that, he just knew it would happen and also he is love....and thinks gays shouldn't marry...but civil unions are cool with him....Also jesus is important...but maybe not literal....maybe...."

Given time those things will fall to the way side one by one just like giving him credit for designing giraffes and other silly nonsense. Jesus will be a mythical character that none the less gave us important moral lessons, people will stop picking random moral lessons from the bible and insisting they be applied to a society that has outgrown those lessons, and finally God will just be a generic force that started the universe and gives a fuzzy feeling. George Coyne has pretty much gotten rid of all of the mythology aside from "god is love." Then only the most backwards will still rant about a conscious thinking god and his demands and desires for a temporary group of primates on some random spec of dust in the middle of no where. It will be relegated to deism, which honestly is just a poetic form of atheism. I welcome the slow march, and will continue to push it towards its inevitable conclusion.

8

So what is the conservative talking point on shooting down the jobs bill?

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/19/politics/senate-bring-jobs-home-bill-blocked/index.html?hpt=hp_c1.

so the bill proposed that we give tax breaks to corporations that keep or create jobs in the us instead of shipping them overseas, and removing certain tax deductions for companies shipping jobs over seas.

seems very pro american, common sense, obvious.

JonathanH

Of course I only need to check fox news and the like to find out. Essentially "it wouldn't fix the economy, and making it more expensive to ship jobs over seas makes it more expensive to ship jobs over seas and that is bad. Also they wouldn't let republicans amend the bill to include things like repealing the healthcare plan, and that isn't fair."

8

So what is the conservative talking point on shooting down the jobs bill?

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/19/politics/senate-bring-jobs-home-bill-blocked/index.html?hpt=hp_c1.

so the bill proposed that we give tax breaks to corporations that keep or create jobs in the us instead of shipping them overseas, and removing certain tax deductions for companies shipping jobs over seas.

seems very pro american, common sense, obvious.

JonathanH

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/19/politics/senate-bring-jobs-home-bill-blocked/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

So the bill proposed that we give tax breaks to corporations that keep or create jobs in the US instead of shipping them overseas, and removing certain tax deductions for companies shipping jobs over seas. Seems very pro american, common sense, obvious. Of course republicans blocked it. It is obvious politics, but there is always some talking point to try and put a spin on it. They can't just say "well strategically we want to make sure that nothing gets done so we can blame it on the president and then claim we can do better." So what is their explanation for why it is so important that this bill does not go forward that doesn't make them look like cynical politicians or money grubbers? Or are they even trying anymore?

56

The best tactic Anonymous could use against the Society is to make them look noble and humble

by JonathanH in

i was thinking about what would be the most damaging thing anonymous could do on an organizational level by hacking the society.

one poster suggested that they should send out e-mails to all the elders in their elder database pretending to be the society.

but rather than sending out anything wierd and defaming, they should go the opposite route and do what the society would never do but should.

JonathanH

I was thinking about what would be the most damaging thing anonymous could do on an organizational level by hacking the society. One poster suggested that they should send out e-mails to all the elders in their elder database pretending to be the society. I think that combined with hacking their website would be the best thing they could do. But rather than sending out anything wierd and defaming, they should go the opposite route and do what the society would never do but should. Be humble.

They should send out e-mails and put up a public message on the website pretending to be the society. They should apologize for all the pain and suffering they have caused to abuse victims with their policies that were short sighted and not in the spirit of christian love. Tell everyone that "we had lost our way and acted as pharisees in Jesus day, and can only hope to be forgiven by the members of the congregations and by God." Then institute a new zero tolerance policy. If anyone makes any claim of child abuse do not call the WT legal department, but go straight to the secular authorities as soon as you hear of any wrong doing. Admit that the elder body is not qualified to deal with such matters, nor is the WT headquarters, but trained proffesionals exist that can and will get to the bottom of any claimsand protect the children in question. The health and wellbeing of any child is more important than any possible discomfort the congregation may experience as a result of a police investigation. Make the letter truly humble and noble.

What could the Society possibly do in response? Take it all back? Say "Just kidding, some guys hacked us. For legal reasons we do not apologize to anyone for any percieved wrong doing on the part of the congregations and that has nothing to do with us anyway. Seriously, call legal right away if somebody says something about abuse. Don't talk to the authorities, you have the right of clergy to say nothing." It would look absolutely terrible if they took it all back and told all the elders to disregard the previous e-mail and then re-iterate a very callous policy. The contrast between the two would be obvious and apparent. This is what they could have said, but they didn't. Here is what the society really thinks.

Or, even better, they don't do anything. They just go on pretending that they totally said those things because they realize how damaging it would be to publicly retract that statement. It would permanently change their policy and possibly save countless children from the shame of being further victimized by the organization itself and get them the help they actually need.

If anybody knows how to contact the people at "ananymous" that are engaged in dealing with the JW side of their anti-pedophile campaign, show them this message or just let me know and I will try to contact them. Could you imagine if they got the e-mailing list for elders around the country and actually had thousands of them read a real human message from the society?

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

genetic fallacy has its uses. Namely if he was so egregiously wrong about who to align himself with, how do I know his stats are going to be legit? I could spend hours trying to research his data, where he got it, how it was calculated, ect. Or I could dismiss it and get my information from sources that aren't using words like "presstitute." He may be a very nice guy, he may be very smart, he may make a salient point, but I'm not going to waste time double checking his information because the article is on a website that espouses the view that maybe Bush was a reptile alien. There are other sources out there that have information that isn't tainted by insanity. But that is neither here nor there. That has nothing to do with this topic. If you really feel it important to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me. But I don't want this turning into a topic about NWO or this guy's credentials, or logical fallacies.

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

.....holy fuck james woods. Seriously? Have we reached a level of national dialogue that is so simplistically black and white that my discussion on economic theory and cultural ethics has been distilled down to "so....Communism? You are a communist?" I guess there was no talking point on fox news about what to say in a discussion on economic rationality so the gears are grinding trying to figure out what the hell this must be about. I am disapointed in you James Woods, and I am saying that out of a place of respect. I thought you would be able to read that and have some kind of commentary on it beyond the shallowest of political dichotomies. NO I am not saying I want communism in america. Fuck.

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

You're a smart enough person to understand my clearly state thesis, James Woods. Which inclines me to believe what you really mean is that you aren't sure of what it is you need to argue with. Perhaps rather than trying to find something to argue with, you could take it into consideration that our current cultural ethic is slanted against the working poor and use that knowledge to inform future opinions. Perhaps the appropriate response in this instance is just a brief "That's interesting."

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

Must everything have an objective? Isn't discussion a healthy and necessary part of being informed citizens? I carry no particular dogma, and I consider myself a-political in that I find our political system to be an odd puzzle to be solved rather than something to actively involve myself in. I would vote and involve myself politically if I found that it could serve a purpose, but I think that both parties are essentially like christianity's ineffeble God, either unwilling or unable to do anything remotely useful for us. Much like theology's involvement in the study of theodicy, there is much debate on exactly why our political system is so ineffectual and who's fault it is. I prefer to take a more holistic approach and look at the over arching picture. Part of that over arching picture is that we have developed a culture that will inevitably lead to the decline of the lower and middle class by giving a free ethical pass to the upper class while scorning the lower class. We have developed a system of cultural ethics that breaks classical economic theory. I don't know what the solution to that is. Just stating that it is a problem.

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

Seriously Bobcat? Does anybody vet their sources?

from globalresearch's "about" page

The Global Research website was established on the 9th of September 2001, two days before the tragic events of September 11. Barely a few days later, Global Research had become a major news source on the New World Order and Washington's "war on terrorism".

In an era of media disinformation, our focus has essentially been to center on the "unspoken truth".

From wikipedia

" the term New World Order or NWO refers to the emergence of a totalitarian one-world government The common theme in conspiracy theories about a New World Order is that a secretive power elite with a globalist agenda is conspiring to eventually rule the world through an authoritarian world government"

I don't care about conspiracy theories. That gave no perspective, but I did learn the new conspiracy theory buzzword "presstitute." So at least there is that. Now can we not discuss New World Order and other junk like that in my topic please?

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

Sam whiskey, you make my point for me. My point isn't whether or not the ideology is right or wrong, capitalism doesn't care about ethics. Capitalism is essentially a darwinian system that has no concept of ethics or morals. That isn't a value judgment that is just reality. And just like a darwinian system, the success of the ecosystem is predicated on the idea that every organism does it's damndest to survive. But what we have done is create a culture in which lions are awesome and we tell the antelopes that running is wrong. If you don't want to be eaten, then don't be a damn antelope. But running? Well that is just entitlement. Economic rationality dictates that every agent attempts to get as much as they can. But we have demonized one side of the equation and glorified the other so that economic rationality is only virtuous for a segment of the population. This is bad for the ecosystem.

Furthermore your idea that it's just personal choice only makes sense on an individual scale, but does nothing for the group as a whole. Sure I can go to college and improve my situation, but there will still be millions upon millions who can't or didn't go to college. And you may say "well that was their choice." Ok, well let's assume every single one of them went to college. Logistics for our education system aside, what now? Now you have somebody with a degree in economics and a minor in mathematics appreciating the irony of the fact that they are stocking shelves at wal-mart. The only way our society functions is that there are people on the bottom that can't improve their situation. Which means that the economic lower classes are both a necessity and by product of a darwinian economic system. It is literally impossible for everyone to win. Which means we tell the poor that they are necessary for the rest of us to live in luxury, but that we hold them in contempt and show open disdain for them because of that.

We all have to act with personal responsibility as individuals to try and improve our lot, but as a society we have to recognize that it is impossible for everyone to improve their lot and that we require people to lose and we actually try to make people lose because that's how the rest of us win. The hyper conservative ideology of late is like watching a National Geographic special and complaining that the real problem with the Sahara is all of the damn lazy antelope. It is both inevitable and necessary that the antelope get eaten, so maybe would shouldn't hold them in contempt for it. We certainly aren't blaming the lion. Rational choice theory and economic rationality have to be restored, and that means the people at the bottom have to be able to use every tool at their disposal to improve their lot just like the people at the top are allowed to do anything to improve their lot. The demonization of the lower class will only lead to the destruction of the middle and lower class.