Me too, Blondie. Very nice post. I also lost myself in my music. I've even been in touch with Terry since his music and background made such an impression on me. Sometimes the quote "We are a product of our environment" is more true than we realize at the time. If we change our environment, the product should change. My best to all. M.A.N. from SL
mcsemike
JoinedPosts by mcsemike
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Is the Internet An Answer to the JW Cliche Lament - "Where Else Can We Go?"
by Seeker4 inin his article at freeminds on when prophecies fail, about the witnesses and cognitive dissonance, randy watters wrote the following, including an insightful quote from barbara harrison grazzutti.
it may seem incomprehensible how the witnesses could ignore the implications of each disconfirmation.
outsiders view the witnesses as lacking common sense for not leaving the organization after numerous failures.
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Is the Internet An Answer to the JW Cliche Lament - "Where Else Can We Go?"
by Seeker4 inin his article at freeminds on when prophecies fail, about the witnesses and cognitive dissonance, randy watters wrote the following, including an insightful quote from barbara harrison grazzutti.
it may seem incomprehensible how the witnesses could ignore the implications of each disconfirmation.
outsiders view the witnesses as lacking common sense for not leaving the organization after numerous failures.
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mcsemike
Many good points were made here. It's always puzzled me why anyone has to "go anywhere else". Where were they BEFORE they became a JW? Crying at home because they were Catholic or Jewish? Maybe some of us were looking for the "answers to the universe", but it doesn't require us to join the WT to find them. As we know, they don't have any answers.
Anitar, I always like your comments. You reminded me of a quote I heard: " I'd rather belong to a religion that allowed questions and didn't have all the answers than to a religion that had all the answers and didn't allow questions." I think that says enough to bury the WTS for good.
I had questions for years. I was first contacted in Oct. 1971 when a JW at work placed the "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years". The yellow book that we all hated. Even when I became a BS conductor, other elders called each other and me to figure out the questions and answers. Whoever wrote that was drunk. It was the offer of the month. I gave it back to the guy and they gave me the Truth Book. It seemed to fill in my empty spaces from being raised Catholic. But even when I finally got baptized in 1977, I never really, really felt it was absolutely the proven truth. I doubted all those years.
I finally started looking on the Internet in 1998 when my nine year old daughter was raped by a JW and learned of these sites and the WT policy on this issue. The floodgates opened and I quit immediately. I never looked back. I once heard a former JW say that if the WT was the truth, he'd rather be a Nazi. I don't know if I'd go that far, but I understand his point. Being a network engineer helped me even more to work on the Internet and get involved in Silent Lambs. I'm so glad for what I learned from everyone here and on other forums. Thank you all for your posts.
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The REAL REASON JW's refuse blood
by DannyHaszard inbut they don't realize that what the bible says about blood is not the real reason why they refuse blood transfusions.
therefore what the bible says at matthew 24:34 is not the real reason they believed it.
here too the real reason will only show up if the society ever changes what it teaches about blood transfusions.
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mcsemike
This is an excellent point. Ex-JW's and non-JW's have hammered at this point for years, yet the JW's just don't see it. I thoroughly enjoyed this topic when getting my Psych degree. It is amazing (and we ex-JW's all did it too) that so many miss this point. This analogy is one of the easiest ways to prove that the WT is NOT the truth and that God never had anything to do with them. If something is Bible-based, then it doesn't matter HOW many JW's or GB members say something, it doesn't change the facts. If the blood teaching was self-evident and obvious, then every person on earth would believe the same thing, no matter what the WT taught. But they don't. The WT plays a very simple game of "Simon Says", and all the small people go along. No one ever thinks to ask, "Who's Simon?" or "Who gave Simon the right to say anything?" Or better yet, "Tell Simon to go to Hell."
It's a shame that the thinking JW's won't come to the Internet in large enough numbers to make a difference any time soon. The next JW who comes to my door is going to get asked these points. "How come you all think the same, how come you all change your minds on the exact same Sunday morning after the "new light" in the Watchtower, how come you all play the game of "Traffic Light" all the time?" Does anyone remember that one? Stop, go, stop, go. Just like little robots. It truly is a shame that the WT has captured the minds of so many kind people.
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Another Deceitful Tactic by the WTBTS.
by gumby inas most informed jehovah's witnesses know, the wtbts is very good at painting a pretty picture of themselves by cleverly wording things to outsiders, yet not revealing the specifics of their beliefs.. below is an example from their official website regarding whether or not they shun members who choose to leave them.
they do not tell the public of the interogation they impose on members who wish to quietly leave ( fade ).. notice they mention how they are more than happy to restore those who exit, but fail to mention the types of questions they ask to those who leave them.. while they admit they shun those who verbally express they no longer wish to be a jehovahs witness, they do not tell the public they coerce that very statement from those who try to leave peacefully and quietly.
quote: .
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mcsemike
Some very good points, Gumby. When I moved from up North to FLA, I was inactive and intended to visit an elder who was very close with our family for years until he moved down here. He even did our wedding talk. He knew my child had been molested, yet he never cared. His first question was about whether I believed the WT was God's people. I said I was checking on that because of things I had heard. He told me not to bother dropping by on my boat trip up the coast. And this elder was the most loving, caring person I ever met, JW or not. Yet once those red flags of doubt went up in my mind, I suddenly became Adolph Hitler, jawohl? It never fails. It's very sad that an elder's first gut reaction, when hearing that a "lost sheep" is in pain, is to bring out the lie detector test and ask if the WT is the truth. Decent people, and most other religions, would ask "how are you?" or "can I help you?" It's a shame that the WT can't see that the Good Samaritan parable shows the world that THEY are the people Jesus was condemning. Yet their self-righteousness and hubris are so disgustingly hypocritical. They couldn't look any worse than if they stood in the street and yelled, "We are the kindest, meekest people on earth and if you don't agree, we'll shoot you here and now." And then actually pull out guns and shoot all who questioned them, then saying that their statement was still true. Their blindness is so astronomically overwhelming, it doesn't need any more proof. Yet six million of these mindless souls insist they are correct. A true tragedy. ALWAYS that question "do you believe the WT....blah, blah.....". Answer: "NO, I don't, and neither does anyone else who has an IQ higher than a plant.
Anitar, you have a good point. Back in the 1960's, young people used to wear and do the very opposite of the establishment. I told them that all they were doing was "conforming to non-conformity". They didn't like it or even realize it, but it was true nonetheless. If we remain bitter and fight with the fringe JW's who come here (and are breaking the WT rules doing it), we won't heal and often won't help the JW, because they have no intention of leaving the cult. They just want to waste our time and see us upset. On Silent Lambs, we ignore the idiots that post and they go away when they see they won't change our minds because we KNOW what happened with child abuse. I guess it comes down to "you have to choose your battles". Some comments are worth replying to, others are not. But in the end, we have to keep posting and telling the truth. Hopefully, the good JW's (is that an oxymoron?) will see the truth and leave that child-raping cult. That's my hope.
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Society letter read to all congregations July 28,2006 !!
by headmath ini got news of this from the jw grape vine today that at the meeting on thursday(yesterday) there was a letter read to all the congregations from the society.
for the first time the society says in the letter to prepare for great tribulation and to have plenty of emergency supplies in case of a disaster.
this has shaken the up the jws it seems.
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mcsemike
First, I agree that back in the 70's, we were told to trust in Jehovah, he would provide. They frowned on the bomb shelter mentality of the 1950's, back when we kids had to go to the basement of the school and put our faces against the wall (1955 to 1960). Yeah, like that would save you if a nuke hit the school. Now, if this letter is true, we should stock up? I live near the Space Center in Florida. We are all ready for any such emergency. It's called "hurricanes". Same supplies, same warnings, blah, blah.
I hope someone can post this letter if it is true. I'd love to see the scare tactics and how they are worded. If JW's do stock up, I guess the rest of the town knows who to go to for food. And since JW's won't fight and most don't have guns, what are they going to do about it??
I have to go. Wal-Mart has a sale on ammo and I need to buy a dozen boxes. Also a few pawn shops to visit for more "equipment" (also known as Glocks, Colts, and others. At least I can protect my freeze-dried coffee and pet food. LOL.
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BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS Twisting a life-affirming law into death
by Terry inturning a life affirming rule into a death-dealing policy is an amazing accomplishment.
we can thank the watchtower society for a mindset which makes this possible.. i've gone into great detail before about the watchtower blood policy itself.
it is a blatant and deliberate publicity stunt which takes the rather simple prohibitions of the laws of noah for gentiles on murder .
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mcsemike
To Terry: (My favorite composer!) I liked the point about the animals eating meat. Nature is satuated (no pun intended) with animals that not only eat blood, but both crave it or actually need it, sometimes eating ONLY blood. (Mosquitoes seem to be in this group.) Lions with claws and fangs, snakes specifically made to hunt mammals (blood), chetahs that outrun anything and instinctive "know" how to give a killing bite to the throat, bears, sharks, etc. I could go on for days. Animals didn't sin. Therefore whatever shape or form an animal is NOW in is how it supposedly was CREATED. That means that God made animals to behave and eat what they do now, way back in Eden. And he said his work was "Good". So, Super, how to you explain the fact that if blood is so sacred to God, he created so many animals that wantonly spray it all over the place when they kill, licking their faces, lapping it up, etc. Just watch any good nature show on TV. Animals preying on other animals and eating their blood demolishes any concept of blood being sacred, especially now. Maybe during the Mosaic Law times, you might have some argument. But that is now over and has been for 2,000 years.
I NOW REST MY CASE. YOU'VE BEEN ANSWERED BY MANY OF THE SHARPEST MINDS I KNOW CONCERNING THIS RELIGION (CULT, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT) AND ITS LUNATIC POLICIES. IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE REAL "TRUTH" AFTER ALL THIS INFORMATION, IT'S NOT BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ENOUGH. IT'S BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO. (I still suspect that you're a JW troll who jus wasted the time of a few dozen people. But at least this info is up for the world to see and we all sharpened our skills and learned things from each other. Thanks again to all, you taught me a lot.)
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BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS Twisting a life-affirming law into death
by Terry inturning a life affirming rule into a death-dealing policy is an amazing accomplishment.
we can thank the watchtower society for a mindset which makes this possible.. i've gone into great detail before about the watchtower blood policy itself.
it is a blatant and deliberate publicity stunt which takes the rather simple prohibitions of the laws of noah for gentiles on murder .
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mcsemike
I'd like to start with a few clarifications to Super. First, if you are British, why the poor grammar and spelling? I know we have a few words peculiar to our own countries, but a person's education and their expectations of being taken seriously DO rely on their communication skills. Yours put your statements in some doubt. I no doubt will be flamed for this, but I'm entitled to my viewpoints just like you are. Secondly, I know people (and family) with far higher medical knowledge than you do. Thirdly, I have a degree in Psychology and have been around JW's for 35 years, many of those years serving in reasonably high positions, so I know the WT. I've read every WT and Awake back to 1940, the entire AID book, the green Insight books, every yearbook back to 1940, and I own the Studies in the Scriptures. So I would assume I have done, or can do, more research than you can about the WT's past and their changing policies, which you do not realize is more the issue here than you are aware.
You start off attacking Terry about his "anger". I know Terry, having read many of his works and analyzed his music. I was student conductor in the high school orchestra, play 30 instruments, teach piano, studied to be a concert pianist, and began writing a symphony at the age of 16. I know again I'll get flamed, but I'm trying to show you that others here have the qualifications to make the statements they make and that you are not correct just because you say you are. You sound to me to be more of a JW than you'd like to admit. "Methinks thou doest protest too much." Capice?? (It's Italian, look it up since you like to make everyone else do their own research, right?) Terry didn't show anger in his post. He has a witty and sarcastic sense of humor, but that doesn't always prove anger. And even if he did, so what? We are analyzing his argument, not his emotions. You could stand a little therapy yourself. Your sarcasm is unnecessary and makes it easier to analyze both you and your statements.
What Jehovah makes clear is up for debate, seeing that the Bible, to me, is a book of fiction. But even if I believed, I wouldn't use the NWT, which is globally viewed as biased and a poor work. I don't think Jehovah thinks anyone is dumb. I think many think YOU are dumb.
Blood might carry diseases, but if a person will die without a transfusion, then so what? You give it and then treat the disease. A few people dying of diseases in blood don't prove that the Bible forbids it. Shooting yourself in the head with a pistol is also bad for your health, but I don't see any verses forbidding it. I wouldn't make a Jew eat pork, but if the world is no longer under the Law, then he is wrong in his believing that he can't eat pork. If the Jews are right, then YOU are wrong for eating pork. See how it works?
Don't rest your case, you haven't got one. If even one child dies because he needed blood and nothing but blood, and he doesn't get it, then that's murder. If an adult wants to commit suicide for following the everchanging teachings of the WT CULT (yes, I said CULT, YOU look up the definition and you'll see that the WT is led by MEN, which makes it a CULT, whether you like it or not) and not taking blood, that is their right. I still object because they leave behind children who now need welfare and other assistance that was the parent's job. But NO ONE has the right to decide that a ten year old child should not have blood even if he dies. What if that child would NOT have wanted to be a JW when he grew up? He doesn't get the chance, now does he? Do you have a crystal ball? Then what right do you have to let that child die? That's when the courts step in, and I fully support them. Again, your defense of everything the WT does indicates to me, and others, that you like them more than you let on.
I suggest YOU look up the facts in an unbiased journal, which of course, eliminates anything the WT prints. Their academic and literary dishonesty is well known. And no, I'm not going to list all the colleges that believe that. YOU LOOK IT UP.
The WT has changed its policy on blood many times over the years, usually, as of late, loosening the rules. If God gave certain laws to mankind, and the Bible hasn't changed, then why does the WT? They either had it right before and are wrong now, or vice versa. This only weakens your case, not helps it. Can't you see that??
There are no truly happy dead people. People are afraid to die. Why do people do all they can to live? Why do they suffer physical symptoms (I'll leave this to the reader's imagination, and you probably should know if you are medically trained as you said) when facing death? Why does the family weep at funerals if the dead person is now happy to die for God? Because, just maybe, he wasn't happy. And he didn't die for God, he died for the WT's CURRENT teaching, which will change again and again. People "seem" to be happy because they think God likes what they did and they're now "safe". That's not a healthy way to view serving God.
If you denied blood to your child, and I was a judge, I'd have her taken away from you and put in custody of the court. The WT's brainwashing tactics, as all cults do, have been responsible for enough deaths, whether due to blood, Malawi, or Nazi Germany.
Blood does not always weaken the immune system. If the person will die without it, who cares? If they refuse the blood, they won't HAVE an immune system.
Again, the WT is a CULT. YES, my opinion. We allowe you yours, I demand mine. And no "proven fact" will change that. You are sounding more like a JW with each statement. Do you live at Bethel???
TD made a good point about water. The Bible is not clear on some of its terms, especially in the NWT. If Terry knows Hebrew and/or Greek and quoted the verses correctly, then he made his point.
Why can't a person store his blood before an operation? The WT has allowed just about every part of blood to be taken, but not at one time. So I can't drink a cup of it, or have a transfusion, but I can have the parts separated and take those one by one. Do you realize how stupid that rule is? Who gave the WT the right to change God's rules?? Oh, I know. They speak for God. Well, news flash. THEY DON'T. THEY NEVER DID, THEY DON'T NOW, AND THEY NEVER WILL. If you think God would use a bunch of psychopathic lunatics and liars to represent him on earth, you need YEARS of therapy. I know you will blast me for what I've written, but I think you can see by the responses here that these people are intelligent, well-informed, and don't let JW's put one past them.
You're tired of repeating yourself? Then why come back with empty arguments after all your points were demolished with true logic, not the WT brainwashing? You hint that we are attacking the WT and not the issue. In many cases, the WT IS the issue, and the WT and its teachings are so intertwined that the two must be treated together. You seem mighty defensive, I wish you would explain why?
If a dying person is happy and "feels at ease" why do many people soil themselves and/or vomit when death is imminent? You do know that, don't you, Doctor??
Leolaia made a good point about the verse in Acts. It says to "abstain from things sacrificed to idols". Yet Paul said it was okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols and later sold in the market, but to try not to stumble your brother. Who is to say that ALL of the things in this verse could be allowed as long as no one was stumbled? And if JW's would mind their own business, they wouldn't know if a "brother" or "sister" took a transfusion. Yet many times, the elders try to steal charts and read if blood was given and if the JW patient signed for it. Again, YOU look it up. I know what my family members in the hospital saw.
I see my time is up. I didn't see Super in the last page or two. I appreciate all the good points made by everyone. Super is a troll for sure, and an amateur at that. I'm sure he's a JW, and if so, a hypocrite, because he came to an apostate site. BAD, Super, Bad boy. I'm a little sorry for the sarcasm (not too much) but I've had my fill of the WT and its insanity. I wish I was 20 years old so I could live long enough to see the end of this CULT. But being in my 50's means I may not see it. That's life. Thanks again, Terry, for a wonderful topic and your brilliant arguments. I wish we could write a book some day. My best to all.
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Announcement: Another favorable court ruling regarding Napa County lawsuit
by AndersonsInfo ini'm thrilled to tell you about the latest court decision made in california a few days ago which kimberlee norris said would be announced today, monday, on jwd.. on july 3rd, i started a thread where the last two rulings in the napa county, california lawsuit, charissa w. v. watchtower, new york, et al., were posted.
both decisions were favorable to the plaintiff.
see http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/8/116108/1.ashx.
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mcsemike
I'm not a lawyer, but this seems to boil down to a few simple points. The WTS runs every congregation in the world, period. They appoint all the elders, they own (when possible) all the halls. They make all the rules. Period. They now claim to have clergy privileges. But I thought all "brothers" were equal. This is clearly not the case. At least 3 elders, and more if there is an appeal, know about abuse cases. In many cases, dozens of JW's know. Possibly dozens more at Bethel doing staff work know about each case. Didn't Barbara Anderson work on the database? So it's possible that 50 people end up working on a judicial case, and dozens more hear of it throught rumors or warnings. Now the WT wants to act like it's a single priest in confession? I don't think so. I agree with some comments here that there will be a lot of shredders running night and day. I hope they get caught doing that. Then the NYC TV stations can get ahold of it and destroy all of them once and for all.
TO WT: You perverts will burn in Hell for your lies, hypocrisy, and perverted conduct. I'll light the match if they let me. You will NEVER stop us from exposing your lying garbage that you call "true worship".
"On 9-11, the terrorists hit the wrong buildings."
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Another lawsuit... this one in Oregon.
by Elsewhere incomplaint: negligence, breach of confidential relationship, intentional infliction of severe emotional distress.
once again the elders appointed a convicted and confessed child molester to a position of responsibility as an officer and ministerial servant of the congregation.
this time the accused name is jerry anderson crabb of the lancaster congregation of jehovah's witnesses - 4795 macleay road se, salem, or 97301. sadly, as one would expect, he has been accused of sexually abusing a child on multiple occasions.
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mcsemike
Don't they still forward a letter with the publisher card? I thought their system was better than the FBI. It's funny how the WT "knows" what it wants to, and conveniently "doesn't know" if that benefits them. It's time for these people to be eliminated permanently.
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YOUR LAST MEETING.........................
by vitty in........................at my last meeting, the elder was talking about 1975 and said "it never happened, it is appostates using a time when (some) brothers took the info in the wt wrong"...................i just blinked and finally woke up.. i had been on this site lurking for a couple of weeks, and realized thing werent right, but to have some creep say on the platform " it didnt happen"............when this ruined my and my siblings childhood, just made me snap.
on the way home, i told my hubby "that was the last meeting im going to"................boy was he pleased.. .
so if you didnt get df ......................what happened at your last meeting.?.
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mcsemike
To Vitty: We "apostates" made up 1975?? What's to make up? Did we also make up 1874 and 1914?? The concept of apostates wasn't even around back then. Who's to blame for that fiasco? Everything the WT ever predicts bites them in the ass later on. How can apostates get into the printing press room, knock out the guards, start the presses during the night, re-write the lying articles, fool the shipping department AFTER fooling the proofreading department, then send the mags (rags) to all the congregations, hold a gun to the head of every WT conductor and MAKE them claim 1975 against their will. Boy, that was easy. If I ever go for my doctorate, I should do a study on how low cult members will stoop in order to twist, deny, and defend lies so they can look good. I think Hitler at least was honest about his beliefs and goals, wicked though they were. It seems that more people in the world who aren't JW's are hoping Armageddon (or some sort of it) will come just so they don't have to listen to the WT bullshit any longer. At least someday those buildings will be gone, or at least the people in them, and there won't be any more door to door hypocrites. I wonder how many decades it will take? Maybe in 50 years, my grandchildren won't have to deal with these idiots anymore. Either the WT will have imploded, been outlawed, killed by the real god, or will all die off. I live near the Space Center in FLA. Maybe someday they'll take the GB and send them to another planet, followed by a huge ship with all the rest. One way ticket only.