Posts by MDS

16

Confession, Clergy and Church: Source Material

by Maximus in

jw
friends

i never cease to be amazed at the quality of thoughtful mail many of us get.

one question that keeps coming up is in regards to sourcing in-depth reference material.

i regularly cite the nourishment for the spirit thread.

MDS

Hi Waiting:

...I'm still a little baffled on what to reply. "Oh yeah?" just didn't seem appropriate since I agree with them.

Waiting, I appreciate your comments. Thank you.

In actuality, all Jehovah's Witnesses would be "baffled" as to an appropriate response, if they pondered this matter, the "Good Samaritan" teaching and what we have been taught about "worldly people" as being "bad association." We could not explain ourselves, explain our "fruitage" and practices, as 1 Peter 3:15 recommends.

We couldn't do it.

This is because, the WTS has taught the organization wrong, and have amassed "bad fruitage" to this effect by way of "reputation" among "worldly people" for the past 120 years!

Our "reputation" stinks in the world. EVERYBODY dislikes us. Because we never "get involved," we never help anyone. We never let "our light shine" before men at all.

So they "hate" us...the world. And rightfully so, since we as an organization have manifested disdain, repulsion, and outright hatred for "worldly people" over the years, consistently and in all parts of the earth. And we did this with a "clear conscience", sleeping good at night, as wonderful, faithful "christians."

We say they are "bad association." -- 1 Cor. 15:33

Perhaps you and I, and Ozziepost, then, have reached a "critical point" in our quest for truth. A critical point of agreement. (Though we have our differences, as all people do.) Still, perhaps, we can all agree:

Jehovah's Witnesses, the Watchtower Society and Governing Body, ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION based upon the many teachings of Jesus on displaying true, Christian "Love" For Our Neighbor...the "worldly people." Those of a different "Creed," those of a different "Religious Belief" system or "Faith". The "Good Samaritan" teaching condemns the organization completely as a whole.

The facts show, we have been erroneously taught to view "our Neighbor" in this so-called "Christian" Organization, as "bad association" and so we have no "dealings" with them at all beyond that which is ABSOLUTELY necessary. Our only responsibility toward them, we are taught, is to "preach" to them in our "door-to-door" ministry. And if they don't listen, then, no association beyond that point on a normal basis...we even refrain in emergency situations too. We simply don't get involved.

This "Pharisical" position adopted by the WTS and G.B., was a CRITICAL MISTAKE, a critical mistake, for the entire rank and file makeup of the organization as a whole. The image of the organization, as seen by "worldly people." Our IMAGE. Tarnished completely, as being "unchristian." Non-loving.

We are all guilty and open to charges by those who are not of our religious persuasion. This point is the "death-stroke" point, I believe, to our claims to be truly "Christian" and to possess the truly "anointed" in our midst. A "Death-Stroke" point.

We cannot defend ourselves for such an argument. We are defenseless. That's why you baffled as to what to say about our defenseless "situation."

Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization and people, really, ARE NOT "CHRISTIAN" at all...period...

Why? ... Our "fruits" say so.

If the religious church organizations began to preach to "Jehovah's Witnesses" using the "Good Samaritan" as their theme text, we would be tried, convicted and condemned before ALL as "non-doers of the word" ... those who only "love with the tongue and word." -- James 1:22-25; 1 John 3:18

We would be condemned as "FALSE CHRISTIANS", and not possessing any of the truly "Anointed" among us. -- 1 John 2:20, 27: 3:1, 3, 18

They would say, based upon our "fruits" for the past 120 years, We are FALSE Christians..."weeds" and not "wheat."

And this would be a true analysis, based upon the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Jehovah's Witnesses, as an organization, DO NOT DISPLAY CHRISTIAN "LOVE."

We have failed the test. Our "fruits" prove it.

MDS

16

Confession, Clergy and Church: Source Material

by Maximus in

jw
friends

i never cease to be amazed at the quality of thoughtful mail many of us get.

one question that keeps coming up is in regards to sourcing in-depth reference material.

i regularly cite the nourishment for the spirit thread.

MDS

Hi Ozziepost, Waiting and other interested parties,

Perhaps, we have now come to see what many still, refuse to see...but inevitably will HAVE TO SEE before this is all over...

ARE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES A CHRISTIAN RELIGION?

That's the question...

The WTS says the "worldly people" are "bad association." Don't have anything to do with them. -- 1 Cor. 15:33

So, we have nothing to do with them, outside of work, school and so on. We tell our children not to "associate" with the youngsters in the neighborhood..."bad association." No matter what kind of parents, neighbors, people they are in reality. Still, if they are not "Jehovah's Witnesses," then, we must have nothing to do with them...they are viewed as "worldly people," thus, bad association.

So, if we have nothing to do with our neighbors, no association whatsoever, no dealings with them, then how will they see our "light" that is supposed to shine forth...Our "good works" that Jesus talked about?

"Likewise let your light shine before men, that they may SEE YOUR FINE WORKS and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens." -- Matt. 5:16

What acts of "love", "Fine works," can the world in general "see" about this Watchtower lead Organization?

Really...they can "see" no "fine works" by this organization at all. That's because we do not participant in anything that has to do with the "world" in general. We view the world as "bad association" completely.

Thus, the world never "sees" anything good coming from this organization...right?

This now, makes for a big, big, big problem for us as a so-called "Christian" Organization of "non-doers."

The world could rightly say to us,

Do Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization, as a "christian" organization display the type of "love" Jesus said would be characteristic of his GENUINE DISCIPLES in these last days?

The same "love" expressed by the "Good Samaritan" who we remember was of a different "creed" from the "enemy" Jew. He was of a DIFFERENT RELIGION from the "Israelite" he helped on the roadside. He was of a different RELIGIOUS PERSUASION than the members of the Jewish faith. They believed differently. But he became his true "neighbor" by his intervention even though he knew they were hated by the Jews. His religious beliefs did not prevent him from displaying acts of "mercy", kindness and human compassion toward his "enemy." -- See John 4:20-22

Are Jehovah's Witnesses, some 6 million strong, taught to view their "worldly" neighbors like this?

If not, then ... Jehovah's witnesses ARE NOT "Christians"...pure and simple. They are NOT a "Christian" Religious Organization.

The facts speak for themselves.

Jesus said,

"You heard that it was said, You must love your neighbor and HATE YOUR ENEMIES [a Pharisee teaching]. However, I say to you: continue tolove your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward to youhave? Are not al the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." -- Matt. 5:43-47

Jehovah Witnesses as an organization, do NOT measure up to the above standard set by Jesus Christ in expressing the all-important quality of true "love" as Jehovah and Jesus have done.

They do not measure up, because they are taught to be Pharisees, just like the "unchristian", unMerciful, non-loving, Watchtower Society and its worthless Governing Body of fake "anointed" christians.

The facts speak for themselves.

Again, Jesus said,

"All ["worldly people"] will know you are my disciples if you have LOVE among yourselfs. -- John 13:35

Is this the way the "worldly people" think of Jehovah's Witnesses as a worldwide organization? That they are such a "loving" people. With the WTS now in existence for over 120 years now?

We've certainly had time to "grow" spiritually, in our displaying "Christian Love" to our "neighbor."

Or, how about this point,

"Little children, let us love, neither in word nor with the tongue, but in deed and truth." -- 1 John 3:18

Doesn't this verse also apply to our expression of "love" toward "worldly people"?

Another principle,

"really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us WORK WHAT IS GOOD TOWARD ALL, but especially toward those related to us in the faith." -- Galatians 6:10

Do we "practice" or put into operation, the first part of the verse..."working what is good ALL people...those who are NOT "related to us in the faith."

Clearly, we must admit...The Watchtower Society teachings are "leavenous" and false. -- Matt.16:12

They have taught us "traditions," and "commandments of men," which nullifies our worship with Jehovah God. -- Matt. 15:9

They have taught us, the entire organization, to "hate" our "enemies." We do not render assistance or help because they are of a different religion, faith, creed. A different religious BELIEF system than us. Thus, they are the "enemy."

And the "enemy" is anyone who is not a Jehovah's Witness, period. Anyone NOT of our religious persuasion... Those "worldly people," the "bad association."

Jesus said,

"By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot gbear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men." Matt. 7:16-20

If Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT a "Good Samaritan" Organization of People, ... then Jehovah's Witnesses, in practice, in actuality, ARE NOT CHRISTIAN at all.

Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Watchtower Society, then ARE NOT "Christians" at all. Their "fruits" prove it.

This is the way, Jehovah and Jesus viewed the matter. They destruction they have "mapped out" for all other people, and the "pit" they have excavated for others, ... lies right before them, directly in their path.

Its up to us, to see the situation as it is, and take the most logical, most appropriate action.

VACATE THE PREMISES...

I thank you for your "listening ear."

Many thanks.

MDS

16

Confession, Clergy and Church: Source Material

by Maximus in

jw
friends

i never cease to be amazed at the quality of thoughtful mail many of us get.

one question that keeps coming up is in regards to sourcing in-depth reference material.

i regularly cite the nourishment for the spirit thread.

MDS

To Hilary-Step & Maximus:

Hi to both of you. I've enjoyed both of your comments on this thread and must agree wholeheartedly.

To add to what has already been said, please consider the following.

Under the leadership of the WTS and G.B., we must ask, are we a "Good Samaritan"-Organization of people... a "Merciful" Organization of People?

Have we been "trained" to help "worldly people" -- to be "merciful" toward those OUTSIDE our organization?

If we see, rape, robbery, even murder, serious crimes committed...are we taught to render aid or assistance to the innocent who all to often become the "victims" in these cases? Are we taught that this act of "bravery" on our parts would be possibly "foolhardy"? Or, would our acts of intervention, be considered a "christian" thing to do, in line with the teaching of the "Good Samaritan", which?

Isn't it true, all along, we've been taught to NOT "get involved"...since these are simply "worldly people"...who are going to be destroyed anyway?

As reported by the 1990 Awake magazine as mentioned above, simply put, this article illustrates the WTS' true position on "christian-involvement" of these horrible crimes committed by "worldly people" upon other "worldly people." To the WTS, actually...the so-called "brother" learned something didn't he...he learned to stop his bad association with worldly people...that was the point of the article, wasn't it? And that's all the WTS is interested in. This is the WTS' position. This is the official position of ALL JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES WORLDWIDE, since the WTS speaks in behalf of all JWs worldwide. And if you don't like...then leave the organization...that's their official position. They are not going to change either.

THE WTS' OFFICIAL POSITION: So what the woman was "raped," assaulted, violated, and you (a "christian" brother) could have helped or maybe prevented it...so what? To us, the WTS, she's a worthless "worldly person" who is probably guilty of slamming the door in our faces when we visited her with the "Christian" message in the first place, during our "christian" door-to-door work. Jesus is scheduled to "destroy" her anyway, at "Armageddon." So, why "get involved"?

Isn't that they way we were taught to look at such situations, by our llustrious leaders? Thus, we are taught no HUMAN COMPASSION AT ALL. Isn't that true?

So, the "Good Samaritan" teaching, then, means nothing to Jehovah's Witnesses and the WTS, and its G.B...in reality. Isn't that true?

Isn't this what we have been taught?

We have to ask ourselves, are we taught by the WTS & G.B., if you see a "worldly person" needing help, ... to help or assist them in anyway we can? ... in our local communities, worldly people needing food, shelter, clothing... are we "trained" to help by the WTS? Are we advised to "spend our resources" that way, by the WTS?

Or, is it better "spent" by sending all monies, gifts, assets, specifying in our Wills, that all our properties, lands, jewelry, even the "pet" -- should go to the WTS, who will in turn use it to erect or build great physical edifices like the "Patterson-Estate"...a $180 million-dollar facility, with over $50 million in "materials" alone (not counting time, man-hours and labor) on something truly pleasing to Jehovah and Jesus. Truly more important, spiritual endeavors...right?

The money so badly mis-appropriated that they have to print books with no hard covers anymore, and possibly stagnating the "preaching" work in Europe and other places around the world.

Is God's Spirit directing the organization to do this...This "spirit-directed" organization?

Are we taught,

If you see a "worldly person" drowning in the water, as a "christian" you are duty-bound to ...

(a) either physically dive in and try to save the person's life, (in other words "put yourself at risk" to save another life even though he not a spiritual brother)....

(b) or, if you know you can't swim and you are not able to "dive in"
... then throw them a line,

(c) or, (80-year old grandmothers can) scream and call for help...

All of the above are "Good Samaritan" Acts, each act based upon ones "ability" to help someone in distress. Real "Christian Acts."

Are we "trained" to assist the poor, indigent within our communities or townships.

Or, are we told, they are simply "worldly people," who need us to "preach" to them only, and they are "bad association" beyond that point.

Is this what Jesus taught?

Are we truly, a "christian organization" based upon what Jesus taught about the "NEIGHBORLY Good Samaritan."

THE "NEIGHBORLY", "MERCIFUL" SAMARITAN -- Luke 10:25-37

"New a certain teacher of the Law got up to put Him to a thorough test He asked, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? ...who is my neighbor?"

"Jesus said A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among robbers, who stripped and pummeled him and ran off, leaving him half dead. Coincidentally, a certain priest was coming down that road and, seeing him, passed onthe other side. In the same way, a Levite arrived at the spot, and passed on the other side."

"Then, a certain Samaritan came there as he traveled, saw him, and took pity ["had mercy"] on him. Going to him, he bandaged his wounds, poured oil and wine into them, set him on his own donkey took him to an inn and looked after him. The next morning he took out and handed the innkeeper [two denarii] and said, Take care of him and whatever further expenses you incur I will refund when I came back. Which of these three, do you think, was really the neighbor to the one who fell among the robbers?"

"He said, The one who was mericiful to him. Then Jesus told him, You go and do the same."-- Luke 10:25-37 The Modern Language Bible

Are we "trained", by the WTS & G.B. to keep "doing the same", as Jesus taught? Have we been "trained" to become like the "merciful Samaritan?

Or, are we taught to be like the self-righteous "priest" and "levite" in Jesus' illustration, who consistently and dutifully offers no "help" or assistance to anyone OUTSIDE his immediate association?

I appreciate your "listening ear."

Many thanks.

MDS

6

"Partial Knowledge"--Have We Progress...

by MDS in

"partial knowledge" -- have we progressed beyond it?

the bible reveals that first century christians possessed a "partial knowledge" of scripture and prophecy.

this being the case, we may then properly ask, have we today, as modern-day christians, progressed beyond this "partial knowledge" thus far?.

MDS

"Partial Knowledge" -- Have We Progressed Beyond It?

The Bible reveals that First Century Christians Possessed A "Partial Knowledge" of Scripture and Prophecy.

This being the case, we may then properly ask, Have We today, as modern-day christians, Progressed Beyond this "partial knowledge" thus far?

Paul describes this particular unsolvable dilemma for first century christians this way,

"Whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with."

"When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known." -- 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 NWT

The New Oxford Annotated Bible renders verse 12 this way,

"For now we see in a mirror, dimly..."

Also, the New Jerusalem Bible renders the same verse as,

"Now we see only reflections in a mirror, mere riddles..."

The Modern Language Bible says, covering verses 8-12,

"...as for knowledge, it will lose its meaning, For our knowledge is fragmentary and so is our prophesying...For now we see indistinctly in a mirror..."

First century christians possessed a "fragmentary," "partial knowledge" of God's Purposes, that would one day, actually "lose its meaning" or be "discarded" or "thrown away," "done away with."

Why?

Their "understanding" of "prophecy," was "partial", incomplete. It should be "discarded". It appears as "mere riddles" to them. As "riddles", which could not be properly understood by anyone in the first century at all, including the inspired apostles of that time.

Thus, any "prophesying" done by first century christians was "partial," "Indistinct," and "Incomplete" and did not fully reveal all of God's true purposes within prophetic scripture, particularly as it applies to our day. That faulty understanding of scripture then, The Greek Scriptures, the New Testament and "understandings" expressed by Paul and other inspired men, yes, by God's permission, then must be "discarded" or "done away with", since inevitably it would by necessity "lose its meaning" as having no application for us today.

Also, further because "that which is complete" must "arrive." And when that which is "perfect", "complete" whole as in Bible knowledge and understanding, then the former understanding of "prophecy" must prove itself to be "obsolete," and totally "ineffectual," and thus, as the King James Version says of verse 8, "it shall vanish away." This "partial understanding" of scripture and prophecy as understood by first century christians -- The Greek Scriptures, the New Testament and its currently understood passages of scripture. Yes, it must pass away..."vanish away," become "obsolete." It will become "antiquated" when "that which is complete" is to arrive.

So then, we as true servants of God must then be prepared, prepared to dutifully "discard" such incomplete "Bible understandings" as taught and understood by first century christians, when it is called for us to do so...when that which is "complete arrives." God expects to do so.

It is just as the Amplified Bible says of these verses,

"...as for knowledge, it will pass away [that is, it will lose its value and be superseded by truth]."

"For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect.) But when the complete and perfect [total] comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away -- become antiquated, void and superseded."

Yes, that "partial knowledge" and "partial" understanding of Bible prophecy possessed by first century christians, then must become "superseded," "antiquated," and "voided" out, as it is the Will of God to do so.

Thus, if we mistakenly base all of our present day "understanding" of scriptures SOLELY upon what first century christians understood, believed, and taught, what Paul, Peter, John and others taught, we will fall short...we will not be able to comprehend, understand Bible Prophecy properly, as it was meant to be understood, in its "complete" sense.

We would be simply "echoeing" or repeating what first century christians "understood", which was a "partial," "indistinct," and "hazy", "riddle-filled" understanding of Bible prophecy.

The Bible in this case, can only appear to us as endless "riddles," "riddles" and more "riddles." Or as Vincent's "Word Studies in the New Testament," says of the Greek expression "riddles," -- as an "ENIGMA". Yes, the Bible just becomes "an enigma" to us.

Thus, we are making no further progress at all, are we? No, we are not progressing at all from the initial "partial," "fragmentary" and "hazy knowledge" of the first century christians. And regrettably and unavoidably, this situation will lead us to draw FALSE CONCLUSIONS about the Bible and what is really meant in God's Holy Word. This is what has happened to the WATCHTOWER SOCIETY and company.

MDS

He is TELLING HIS WORD TO JACOB, His regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has NOT done that way to any other nation; and as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them..."

-- Psalms 147:19, 20

14

"Vindication," New Light

by Maximus in

jw
friends

need some help.. growing up, i was ceaselessly taught that everything jws do in preaching is because of "the issue.

" the issue is the "vindication" of jehovah's name.. at some point the publications ceased this teaching, with an almost casual watchtower reference to the fact that 'obviously jehovah's name does not need to be vindicated.

' keen students were surprised that no major article appeared to lay out this change.. i don't have the tools to follow this up, so could i impose on someone to fill me in with citations?

MDS

Hi Max:

I found a couple of additional, interesting renderings of Ezekiel 36:23 which also employs the expression: "Vindication of God's Name."

"And I WILL VINDICATE THE HOLINESS OF MY GREAT NAME which has been profaned among the nations..." -- New American Standard

Also,

"I WILL VINDICATE MY GREAT NAME, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD, says the LORD GOD, when, through you, I VINDICATE MY HOLINESS before their eyes." -- The Modern Language Bible

The Vindication of God's Name is a clear-cut issue, always paramount in importance and unequalled in significance, in the eyes of Almighty God. There is no issue, Biblically-speaking really, quite like it. Reading the Bible objectively makes that point clear.

As you stated, for many years the WTS has held that point up high and endorsed this position to the world in general. At least, until May 1995, when the "new light" came in the form of the Watchtower Magazine. Now, the "Vindication of God's Great Name" is no longer the issue. Of course, this "teaching" is in total contradiction to God's Word itself, as demonstated above.

The "Vindication of God's Name" is the primary and main focal point of the Bible itself. It is rudimentary, elementary, fundamental and thus most critical to one first coming to understand God's Word and His purposes for us today. Any novice of Bible study must first come to realize this point, before he can began to "grow" spiritually to spiritual "adulthood" and maturity.

Therefore, if there ever was a "proof", some discernable "evidence" that one could direct another to, to demonstrate or show the spiritual "fall" of the WTS and Governing Body, this would be it. Clearly, the WTS and the Governing Body have completely lost Jehovah's Spirit, based upon this "new light" they are now teaching the congregations world-wide.

God had blinded them from seeing the most important Bible issue of our time. -- John 12:40

In keeping with His Own righteous standards, Jehovah and Jesus have "removed" the Watchtower Society's spiritual "lampstand from its place." They can no longer bear any "light" nor provide true spiritual enlightenment for those seeking their aid, at all for Jehovah and Jesus anymore. -- Rev. 2:5

As Jesus said,

"Every branch in me not bearing fruit HE TAKES AWAY,..." -- John 15:2

This is what has happened to the WTS and the Governing Body. Jehovah has "taken them away," spiritually-speaking. They have lost His blessing and spirit, as evidenced by what they write of recent in the publications now as "new light," as well as their horrendous conduct with the "Silent-Lambs" situation, and other devious matters of their doing that have now become "public knowledge." It is clear-cut. -- Ezekiel 36:3, 12-14

Peace,

MDS

14

"Vindication," New Light

by Maximus in

jw
friends

need some help.. growing up, i was ceaselessly taught that everything jws do in preaching is because of "the issue.

" the issue is the "vindication" of jehovah's name.. at some point the publications ceased this teaching, with an almost casual watchtower reference to the fact that 'obviously jehovah's name does not need to be vindicated.

' keen students were surprised that no major article appeared to lay out this change.. i don't have the tools to follow this up, so could i impose on someone to fill me in with citations?

MDS

Hi Max:

Found an interesting Bible rendering for your perusal, pertaining to this subject...

THE "VINDICATION OF MY NAME" -- Ezekiel 36:23

"And I will VINDICATE THE HOLINESS OF MY NAME and separate it for its holy purpose from all that defiles it -- my name, whch has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned among them -- and the nations will know, understand, and realize that I am the LORD, when I shall be set apart by you and MY HOLINESS VINDICATED IN YOU before their eyes and yours." -- Ezekiel 36:23 Amplified Bible

MDS

2

The "Kingdom of God", Perhaps An Ear...

by MDS in

the "kingdom of god," perhaps an earthly kingdom?.

daniel 7:21, 22 says this:.

"i kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of supreme one, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.".

MDS

The "Kingdom of God," Perhaps An Earthly Kingdom?

Daniel 7:21, 22

says this:

"I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself."

Verses 25-27 of Chapter 7 says:

"And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annilihate [him] and to destroy him totally.

"And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them."

Also, Daniel 12:7 says:

"And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: "It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish."

The WTS contends that the situational "harrassment of the holy ones" actually occurred some years ago, yes, between the years of 1914-1918.

But does this make sense?

Further, doesn't the above context absolutely show that:

(a) the kingdom's full establishment will be a future event, (Or, something that has not occurred yet thus far.)

and

(b) The kingdom Government itself, will be an EARTHLY Government, with the Governmental Seat of this Kingdom finding itself being situated right here upon the earth? Doesn't the context indicate that?

In other words, the "Holy Ones of the Supreme One" establish their own "government" right here upon the earth, without anyone needing to go to heaven. No one goes to heaven, but the Kingdom and the "holy ones" of the Supreme One, establish the "Kingdom of God" right here upon the earth. Doesn't the above contect show this?

Actually, according to the above verses, the "Kingdom Government of God," is established right here upon the earth just after the "harrassing" period of the "Small Horn." And clearly, there is no mention of a long drawn out, very much extended period of time between the "harrassing" of the Holy Ones of the Supreme One, and the time God ordains they come into possession of the "kingdom of God." -- See Daniel 7:18.

But, according to the WTS, it has been more than 87 years since 1914, since that time the "harrassment" of the holy ones started... some 87 years?

Where do the scriptures indicate there would be some 87 years or shall we say, an approaching 100-year period between the "war" of the "holy ones" and the "definite time for the holy ones to come into possession of the Kingdom of God"? Why would there be close to a 100 years between both events? Why would such time be alloted between the "harrassment" period of the "holy ones" and the time they take possession of the "kingdom" everlastingly? Where do the scriptures indicate this 86-year plus period of time before coming into the "kingdom" for the "holy ones of the Supreme One"?

Daniel 7:21 shows that the "horn" makes "war" upon the "holy ones of the Supreme One." But, actually, have we seen this "war" upon these ones? Have we visualized an actual "war" upon the "holy ones" of the Supreme One?

Obviously, according to Daniel's account, the "holy ones" of the Supreme One, did NOT come under attack between 1914-1918, because this would have meant the "kingdom of God" would have started right after that, upon earth. And we know, this did not happen at all.

Thus based upon the above information, the doctrine of 1914 as taught and understood by JWs & WTS today, cannot be considered correct in any form or fashion. No earthly "Kingdom of God," has been established since the designated years of 1914-1918, the time when the "holy ones of the Supreme One" were supposed to be "trampled" upon and "harrassed" by God's permission. It has now been too many years passed to claim such has happened.

Thus, this "harrassment" period of 3 1/2 years or 42 months, must be a future event. Also, the establishment of God's Kingdom upon earth too, it must be a future event as well. This 3 1/2 year period of time is mentioned several times in the Bible as being a most momentous time in scripture and Bible prophecy for God's People. Big changes occur after this period of time has occurred, where God has "given authority" for the surrounding "nations" to "act" against God's people in "war." -- Revelation 11:2; 12:6, 14; 13:5

The "kingdom of God" itself thus, finds its membership originating upon the earth. Yes, an earthly government established right here upon earth, as the Royal Government is one that is "cut out" of a earthly "mountain." "Cut out", not with human hands, but with the hands of God, out of an EARTHLY MOUNTAIN, one that is upon this earth today. What is cut out, is at first a small "stone." A small "stone" cut out by God, of God-Selected Individuals, first grouped together as a small congregation or "Stone." These things are done, as the prophet says,

"...Not by military force, nor by power, but by my spirit, Jehovah of Armies has said...For who has despised the day of small things?..." -- Zechariah 4:6, 10

A small "stone" at first. But later growing, and growing more in size,into finally becoming "A Large Mountain" itself. So large a "stone" that it is "filling" the entire earth in size. And also with membership thereof possessing the "true knowledge of God," that makes finally, "true knowledge abundant" in all of the earth, as Daniel 12:4 says it would become.

A "stone" that once reaching its full size, with the backing of God Jehovah, is capable of pulverizing all existing governments pictured by the visioned Statute, particularly the "feet" of the Statute, the "feet" of "molded clay mixed with iron", just as Daniel 2nd chapter shows.

Daniel 2:34, 35, 44, 45 says this:

"You kept on looking until a stone was cut out not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of molded clay and crushed them. At that time the iron, the molded clay, the copper, the silver and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that no trace at all was found of them. And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth."

"And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The Grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy."

He is telling his word to Jacob, His regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has not done that way to any other nation; And as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them." -- Psalms 147:19, 20

MDS

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