NewWay

Joined

• started 8 topics
• posted 196 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by NewWay

• 
  19

  Rejection

  by dsgal in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i faithfully attended all the meetings at the local kingdom hall...someone was studying with me...i went out in field service.but i never got invited to any of their social events.this hurt me so bad i stopped going to meetings.just curious,anyone else ever experience shunning?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  Welcome {{{{{{{{{{dsgal}}}}}}}}}}
  
  Yes, this story could probably be told a thousand times. In order to belong to the 'in' crowd you have to do all the things that are expected for membership.
  
  Kind regards.
• 
  4

  The missing link

  by link in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  im a newbie and the first thing i have to do is apologise for not being able to make a full introduction for myself.

  this is because i am the only member of my family that has been able to stay out of the j.w.s.

  as long as i attend meetings with them and keep my opinions to myself i am allowed to stay on the outside.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  Hi Link! Nice to hear from you, and welcome to this forum.
  
  You have made some interesting discoveries. I would imagine that many JWs are of the type who can 'hack' being under the authority of someone else. However, I have noticed (and I've been associated with JWs since very early in my childhood) that there are JWs who manifest little 'rebellions' where they can get away with it. When one thinks about it, there are some initially appealing aspects of being a JW:
  
  * Future looks bright, one day paradise will be here (in fact its just round the corner!).
  * Pre-packaged spirituality including five meetings a week with questions already answered.
  * Association to escape the pressures of 'the world' with similarly-minded people.
  * Friends who are encouraged to adopt Christians morality and good manners.
  * Set manner and quota of service hours for making sure God is pleased with us
  
  I was talking about this to an active JW relative the other day and the person actually agreed that in effect JWs were letting other people take responsibility for their relationship with God. Unfortunately, spontaneous Christian acts of love for God and neighbour can be stifled by such a regimented religious life.
  
  Kind regards.
• 
  89

  Why do so many people believe that jesus is god?

  by Legendary U.2.K. in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  Although the writings of the "Church Fathers" should not be allowed to interfere with clear and self-explanatory teachings from the Bible, in areas where interpretation is needed, such writings can help in establishing what early Christians believed. Late first century Christian writer Athenagoras reveals in what way the "Holy Spirit" was viewed:
  
  "The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun." - Athenagoras' A Plea For The Christians (Chapter 10)
  
  "For, we acknowledge a God, and a Son his Logos, and a Holy Spirit, united in essence, - the Father, the Son, the Spirit, because the Son is the Intelligence, Reason, Wisdom of the Father, and the Spirit an effluence, as light from fire." - Athenagoras' A Plea For The Christians (Chapter 24)
  
  While we could argue about what the word from which 'effluence' is translated means, it is clear from both short illustrations that Athenagoras understood the Holy Spirit to be a radiation from the Father. Light is a product of the sun and fire, but never the sun or fire itself.
  
  Now, since I don't have the Greek manuscripts from which Athenagoras' writings have been translated, then I and other readers are a the mercy of Rev. B. P. Pratten who translated his work. So, for instance, when the Rev. translates from the Greek 'himself' (with reference to the Holy Spirit), there is no way of knowing if this is a legitimate translation. In fact, the Greek word for 'spirit' (Greek = 'pneuma') is a 'neuter' or 'it' word. So one wonders whether the Rev. has actually interpreted a neuter pronoun to mean 'himself'.
  
  A similar situation exists with regard to the promised 'comforter' (Greek = 'parakletos') of John 14:15-17 and John 16:7-11. The 'gender' of the Greek word for 'comforter' (in some Bible versions called 'advocate') is masculine. That of course does not mean that the word cannot be applied to females. Koine Greek, along with modern languages like German, have three genders and in many cases words are given what appear to be - at least to many native English-speaking people - an arbitary gender. Just because a word has a masculine gender, that does not prove that it refers to a male person or even a person at all. For instance, the Hebrew word for earth ('arets') is 'feminine' by gender, and although a literal translation of Genesis 1:2 begins: "now-the-earth she-was formless" (Hebrew = "w'harets hay'thah chohuw"), this does not make the earth a female person. In the above cited scriptures from John, many English translations use the pronouns 'he' and 'him' with reference to the 'comforter', but as has been shown this is based upon a literal translation. At the end of the day, one's translation of this passage of Scripture will reflect one's existing view of who/what the 'Holy Spirit' is.
  
  So an unbiased examination of the 'Holy Spirit' has got to be based on what the Scriptures tell us as a whole. The 'Holy Spirit' has been described as 'saying' things, but then again blood (which is not a person) has been said in Scripture to 'cry out'. Thus, there are arguments both ways with regard to such scriptures. However, the majority of references to the 'Holy Spirit' or 'God's Spirit' speak of 'it' as being 'distributed among', 'poured out on', and 'filling' people. so it is no wonder that many people come to the conclusion that the 'Holy Spirit' is an energising power of God rather than an actual person. This certainly fits Athenagoras' illustration of 'it' being like light that emanates from fire.
  
  I should like to make a comment on the expression, "God is a mystery". This appears to be used by at least some trinitarians as a conversation stopper. It is also viewed by some who have contrary views - and I don't mean to offend anyone - as "a cop out". I think Tertullian's words directed to those who were trying to uphold their own view of God is quite apt. He said (and I'm paraphrasing here): "Then one can imagine God to be anything one wishes, on the basis that anything is possible with God". Again, with this train of thought, he says: "God could have made man with wings, but just because He could does not mean that he actually did." For many people the "God is a mystery" strategy holds no water whatsoever. In fact there seems to be a condescending aspect to it in that the problem is deemed to be with the questioner's comprehending the trinity, not with whether or not the trinity is well-founded on careful examination of Scripture. It should be noted that many of those who do not accept the trinity doctrine refuse to be psychologically bullied (e.g. "Well every Christian scholar I know believes it") into believing a doctrine that emerged out of an era when political expediency was more important than the true nature of 'God', his 'Son', and the 'Holy Spirit'.
  
  I'm afraid I treat the established 'orthodox' churches and their doctrines with the same degree of sober examination as I did the WTS.
• 
  89

  Why do so many people believe that jesus is god?

  by Legendary U.2.K. in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  LittleToe: Thanks for your post. If you read the article on the semachiah web site, you will notice that Origen has been quoted on the basis of his understanding of Koine Greek as a native speaker. So, his 'testimony' has been used because of his authoritative analysis of the structure of John 1:1c as an expert in the Koine Greek language. His actual theological arguments are not the key in themselves, but they do help to show the difference in understanding of the two 'gods'. If you read carefully you will see that in his discussion he mentions the "god" with the article and the "god" without. In his explanation it is evident that a definite article in John 1:1c was not even implied - modern translators have argued that there is an implicit definite article. His analysis of the text of John 1:1c shows that the Logos as "god" is relative to "the god" who is "God over all". He thus shows the difference between the two 'gods', and even mentions other 'gods' that come after the Logos. If one understands the way John used 'god' in reference to Jesus Christ, as pointed out by Origen, then there is no compromise to polytheism.
  
  Kind regards.
  
  (Edited due to missiing word)

  Edited by - NewWay on 2 August 2002 15:6:13
• 
  29

  So-called Bible Scholars........

  by hillary_step in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it is not a difficult thing to do to criticize wts literature, however i found this comment in a recent wt very enlightening as it seems to explain the unscholarly nature of much of what they produce.

  it also is an object lesson on how to manipulate a conditioned group of people by the use of 'trigger words'.

  i have highlighted these expressions, which are deliberately used by writing, as we have previously discussed to 'encourage' the readers to adopt a patently flawed line of reasoning.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  "I actually think that scholars who have no faith in the Bible make far more successful researchers and translators exactly because they have no agenda, and because they bring to the table a historical persepctive that is often missed by those with an emotional investment in the whole issue."

  Very good point Hillary on the matter of unbiased research, unfettered by religious affiliation. Which is why we have to bear in mind that although "Christendom" has the lion's share of Bible, Commentary, and Lexical publications, there is a certain bias in matter of doctrine, and this will be reflected in what is written at times. However, after reading the paragraph you quoted from the Watchtower with my own eyes, my first thought was, "What a cheek!" How about this:
  
  "The Society's vice president, Fred Franz, was acknowledged as the organisation's principal Bible scholar. On a number of occasions I went to his office to inquire about points. To my surprise he frequently directed me to Bible commentaries, saying, 'Why don't you see what Adam Clarke says, or what Cooke says,' or, if the subject primarily related to the Hebrew Scriptures, 'what the Soncino commentaries say.' Our Bethel library contained shelf after shelf after shelf filled with such commentaries. Since they were the product of scholars of other religions, however, I had not given much importance to them and, along with others in the department, felt some hesitancy, even distrust, as to using them. As Karl Klein, a senior member of the Writing Department, sometimes very bluntly expressed it, using these commentaries was 'sucking at the tits of Babylon the Great,' the empire of false religion according to the Society's interpretation of the great harlot of Revelation." - Crisis Of Conscience by Raymond Franz (3rd Edition, page 22, paras 3 & 4)
  
  Kind regards.
• 
  45

  ".......... but are as angels in heaven"

  by Ice Blue in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the many teachings that troubled my conscience matthew 22:30. does this mean that after armageddon there will essentially be several different classes of people ie survivors (who may marry) and resurrected ones (who may not) and those born after armageddon (presumably who may)?

  does this mean the resurrected ones will be sexless - like 'drones'?

  surely then they will not be the same person that they were?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  LauraLisa: I think your view that Jesus was not giving them the information they were looking for is a good idea. For as you pointed out, they were trying to trick him, which is why he may have spoken enigmatically to them. From what I've read of Jewish belief at the time of Jesus Christ, it seems apparent that they believed in a fleshly resurrection, so the Saduccees whom the historian says believed that "souls die with the bodies" ("Antiquities", 18.1.4), would be probably unaware of a "heavenly resurrection". So yes, maybe Jesus was bringing out "new light", and the fact that (as has been brought out - which I had forgotten about) the resurrected ones also "do not die anymore" could be used to support such a view. Nice post.
  
  Kind regards.
• 
  89

  Why do so many people believe that jesus is god?

  by Legendary U.2.K. in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  LINKS TO TEXT OF ORIGEN'S COMMENTARY ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (BOOK 2)

  
  
  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-10/anf10-38.htm#P6431_1050993
  
  http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101502.htm
  
  http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/Origen/view.cgi?file=anf10-38.htm&size=20
  
  The "Commentary On John" features in Volume 10 of the "AnteNicene Fathers" published by WM. B. Eerdmans.
• 
  89

  Why do so many people believe that jesus is god?

  by Legendary U.2.K. in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  Some notes on John 10:31-39:

  
  
  First, let it be noted that any Greek language Bible texts I use are from well-known sources outside of the WTS - I don't use the Kingdom Interlinear Translation (KIT). My own main personal sources of information on the Greek text of the New Testament are (1) The United Bible Societies' 4th Edition Greek New Testament and (2) The New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament (which incorporates the UBS Greek text) published by Tydale House.
  
  In John 10:33, as with John 1:1, the Greek definite article is absent from the word 'god' (Greek = 'theos'), so a translation of "make yourself [a] god" (Greek = "poieis seauton theon"; note no "ton" [the] before "theon") is not taking an unreasonable liberty in view of the structure of the sentence. In fact when we bear in mind the Jewish understanding of what a "son of God" actually meant (i.e. an angel, or a being from the spirit realm), then it is understandable why they said "because you being [a] man ..." (Greek = "hoti su anthrohpos ohn ..."). It was their association with the word 'god' being one who inhabited the spirit realm rather than a man on earth that makes sense of what Jesus said next. Jesus straightaway in answer (verse 34) refers to a scripture which obviously used the word "god" in relation to human beings. Again, immediately (verses 35 & 36) after quoting the scripture, he asked them the pertinent question, "can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, 'I am God's son'?" (New Revised Standard Version of the Bible).
  
  Also, what would be the point of defending himself against a charge of blasphemy for claiming to be "the god" if he were really God? His quoting from the Psalms would be irrelevant, since the ones called 'gods' (Greek = "theoi") were not being called "the god", but those human beings to whom "the word of God came" (NRSV). In fact, it is interesting to note that Strong's Concordance (Greek listing 2316) gives as a figurative meaning for 'god' one who is a 'magistrate' (Compare John 5:30, where Jesus is able to act as a 'judge' yet not by virtue of his own will by the will of him [God] who sent him).
  
  Link to article on John 1:1: http://www.semachiah.fsnet.co.uk/notes/scripturenotes-joh1v1.htm
  
  (Edited to correct link)
  

  Edited by - NewWay on 2 August 2002 7:9:2
• 
  48

  Does Ray Franz owe us an apology?

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  (not, ray franz owes us an apology) .

  (ok lets add this on)do those who are or were governing body members have a greater amount of responsability than witnesses in general?at what point do we stop being victims and become instigaters?

  this may have been discussed before but i'm not sure.so sorry if it has.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  jst2laws: Thanks for sharing that information about Ray with us.
  
  dstepper: Welcome to the forum!
  
  Kind regards.
• 
  89

  Why do so many people believe that jesus is god?

  by Legendary U.2.K. in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  Robert, and others who have raised the question about Origen. I can't remember offhand exactly were the treatment of John 1:1 is, but is within his Commentary On John. As has been pointed out, there are internet resources that have the text to the complete set of volumes of the "Church Fathers". However, if you follow the link I gave in my earlier post, and look under the Scripture Notes, you will find a reference to John 1:1. The article will give the exact location in the works of Origen. The web site also has an article on John 10, showing how in context, Jesus was not claiming to be God - one has to read the whole account and ask why Jesus made reference to the Psalms in his answer if they were discussing "the God". As has been brought out by another poster, our understanding of certain words change in time. Modern languages can only try to express the original ideas of ancient language texts, but there are problems. For instance, the word 'god' had a special meaning to the people of the first century, and we have to put ourselves in their shoes when we discuss words like this.
  
  (Edited for typos)

  Edited by - NewWay on 1 August 2002 18:37:18