The truth is... until someone gets out the 'defending my world view with my eyes closed' box, there is no point reasoning with them. I remember being like that, and I sincerely believed what I was saying as do they.
snare&racket
JoinedPosts by snare&racket
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44
Absolute knowledge vs. Relativism
by Vidqun inbelieving in a god is a leap of faith.
being an atheist is also a leap of faith, and that goes for the evolutionists too.
i believe in absolute truth as found in the bible.
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148
Who designed cancer?
by snare&racket inone thing i regret, is not listening to the questions in my head whilst a jw.
one i didn't ask until years after leaving was....who designed disease?
of course the first thing to realise is the complexity of disease, the histology, pathology and aetiology.
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snare&racket
The moment you think you are clever, you are mistaken. I have a huge issue with self confidence in my academic ability and knowlege, you could not (once again) be further from the truth.
How would describing the viral proliferation mechanism contribute anything to your point? I dont think you understand what you are saying. Viruses invade cells and turn the cell into a virus making machine. Thats it. SOME viruses, retro viruses, alter DNA and RNA. Notice there is no immune involvment. Eventually, NK cells attack virus controlled cells. But whats your point ? Viruses are not the means of all disease, far from it.
I am no expert, its both comical and ironic that you think I am. The P.s. was a refernce to me saying you worship the designer of all diseases, i had to clarify that was not of course true. No heat at all. I am bewildered at your lengthy chit chat responses that contain no evidence to the contrary of modern science. Just snidey comments.
As for my books on evolution (we call them textbooks) they are just your average biology reference books. I would love you to go through a biology book and SPECIFY thr factual inaccuracies. This is alot harder than saying "it isnt true." What part of evoloutionary science do you believe to be a lie and do you have evidence to back up your claim? Please bare in mind, that the science does have the evidence. See what you are up against?
Why does accepting evolutionary facts make me gullible? These are facts based on results I myself can and have reproduced in a lab. They are based on evidences I have seen felt and touched. I dont use faith in my science. I assume you will deny this, please give an example.
I mentioned apes turning into men as it is a nonsensical question. Apes have never turned into men. No legitimate scientist has ever said they have and hence they never will.
We started with one eye ? Seriously.. where the hell do you get this "science" from.... this pseudo- nonsense is embarassing to read. Of course what you describe is silly, its not evolution. As with all your facts, its not true. Just like the society you offer no facts or proof just your feelings. Science thankfully is not based on feelings. Its often unituitave. For example in a room of 21 people , 2 people will share a birthday. The numbers feel wrong, but the science doesnt depend on gut feelings. You think its silly that a cell can evolve into a human being over millions of years, yet we watch a single cell turn into a baby in just 9 months.
I am going to end the chat here, I wish you well and hope you bite your pride and open a textbook. I would like to ask one final thing though, you talk about having a scientific approach because of your scientific background.
What degree do you have ?
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Who designed cancer?
by snare&racket inone thing i regret, is not listening to the questions in my head whilst a jw.
one i didn't ask until years after leaving was....who designed disease?
of course the first thing to realise is the complexity of disease, the histology, pathology and aetiology.
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snare&racket
"There is a certain method in my madness. I have a scientific background so I try my best to apply scientific method, even when it comes to something abstract as God and religion. As a theory is postulated, input from all sides will decide whether the theory should be approved or rejected. I believe, at the moment, the only way one can prove the existence of God is though prophecy, i.e., accurate prediction of the future, something that we humans are incapable of. I am working on it. So far, because of a lack of information, the jury is still out on God."
I spend all day, every day with scientists. You are neither scientific or follow scientific method. Your wild statements affirm that.
In your reply, you basically just mention random terms of information that I didn't, due to their irrelevance. Yes, DNA is altered by radiation such as UV light..... AND? How does that detract from my point that if you believe we didn't evolve, god had to design sickness and disease? It also bears no connection to your odd immunity theory. Cancers as you NOW know don't all originate from viruses, and only some skin cancers come about by UV light. Still need a designer in your magic man in the sky theory. I also note you have not asked about, researched or even read about the facts we now have on the evolution of disease. All replicable in any lab.
People like you are dangerous, you claim to represent and know science. You clearly don't. Today's science is based on the best knowledge and facts before us. It doesn't claim to have morals. Stating similar comments to... humans once believed in a flat earth and therefore our evidence for evolution today in annulled... Makes you half witted. Why are you talking about Greeks ? Thats just.....weird. Anyone that looks at, examines an openly scrutinises the evidence for evolution will come to the conclusion it's true. Is it a coincidence that it's Genesis believers that don't get it?
If you wonder why apes don't turn into men, why evolution doesn't happen in front of our eyes, how random chance can create an eye... Then you have never picked up a book on evolution. These questions highlight ignorance and a bizzare and incorrect explanation of evolution by Christian authorities, such as the FDS. It's handy because when you pick up a textbook, you can quickly see the deceit of your religious leaders. Helps one to leave immensely. It's like knowing that toasters and tv's have a common ancestor in the microchip but claiming that this is not the case because the tv doesn't cook bread and the toaster can't get HBO.
I sincerely don't mind you believing in a magic sky man, but don't peddle yourself as a scientist my friend. You are nothing of the sort. If you think I am being unkind, I apologise.
Finally , been as I love irony almost as much as I love porn.... I find it amazing that you are posting the evils of modern scientists for creating a virus when you WORSHIP the designer of all diseases, all viruses, all bacteria..... You twit. They haven't made it for a lark, they make them in order to find a vaccination. Even if some crazy evil scientist on an island that resembled a skull from afar, decided to create an Armageddon banana virus.... what the hell has that got to do with a team fighting breast cancer in my local university? Science isn't a movement, a group or force, it's nothing more than a METHOD........ FOR HYPOTHESISING TRUTHS.
P.s the god of the bible didn't design sh*t... Just to clarify.
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A letter arrived in the mail
by truthseeker inmy wife received a letter in the mail from a jw she had known from school.
we have seen this sister about twice in the last ten years; the last occasion was 4 years ago.
she lives in another congregation a few miles away.. this sister heard that we had been "recently discouraged" - those were her words.
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snare&racket
I wouldn't worry about them DFing the fallen, we keep their numbers up in the annual report. The 7 million includes us faders. We want to keep our family, they want our stats... Until I reach my family intellectually it's a deal.
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A thought for those with believing partners.....
by snare&racket inwhen i was a single male jw i knew between age 22-25 that i had major concerns with the religion.
this had a big effect on my interaction with opp sex in the org.
whenever i got close to someone i would consider the inevitable time that i would have to face my concerns.
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snare&racket
When I was a single male JW I knew between age 22-25 that I had major concerns with the religion. This had a big effect on my interaction with opp sex in the org. Whenever I got close to someone I would consider the inevitable time that I would have to face my concerns. The effect on the Mrs typicalyoungfaithfulwife in my mind would be both unfair and life shattering. In the back of my mind I kinda always knew I'd leave. This to be fair was all fairly unconscious. I'm hoping you all kinda know what I mean...
Anyway, not everyone had that luxury and my heart goes out to all of you that have experienced the truth of the JWs and undergone the leaving process,with a partner still deeply entrenched. My heart sincerely goes out to you. My family isn't celebrating xmas and it pains me to see them chained to such a medieval regime,especially as its all false. I can't imagine the pain of seeing my soul mate refuse to accept reality. It would destroy me. So for all of you with believing partners, my heart, thoughts and sincerest hope for change goes out to you.
Snare xxx
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What do you know and what do you THINK the Shroud of Turin is?
by Terry in.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/20/shroud-of-turin-jesus-burial-cloth-authentic_n_1161363.html?ref=religion&icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk3%26plid%3d121982.
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snare&racket
The shroud was recently proven to be nothing more than art recently.
The anatomy of the image is aesthetically pleasing but anatomically incorrect I.e. if a cloth was draped over a body it would not produce that image.
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148
Who designed cancer?
by snare&racket inone thing i regret, is not listening to the questions in my head whilst a jw.
one i didn't ask until years after leaving was....who designed disease?
of course the first thing to realise is the complexity of disease, the histology, pathology and aetiology.
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snare&racket
Hey Vidqun
Why I am doing this, I don’t know…
“With a perfect immune system, you would be able to ward off any disease.”
Of all the millions of examples, ill use one I mentioned…Downs Syndrome? It has NOTHING to do with immunity. It is a genetic misreading that occurs when the genes of the sperm and egg interact. Also what is wrong with our immune system? What needs fixing? Maybe I should mention I have studied the immune system in depth for my medical degree, so please provide evidence for your answers, every single statement needs evidence. As its fair, if you want evidence for anything I say, please just ask.
“ Because of imperfection you grow old and die.”
Sadly not the case, we have thousands of human and Neanderthal remains from hundreds of thousands of years ago, they died at a younger age than we do because of disease and natural wear and tear. Mostly teeth disease. Humans are not becoming more imperfect and therefore more ill. Please note that the human remains and Neanderthals are older than Adam (6000 years old). In fact life expectancy is rising and has done for some time.
People die because the organs give out. Our cells age as our telomere lengths reduce. Even if this was not the case (such as lobsters) you would still die as we are as fallible to death as an ant. As we age our organs become more and more damaged due to our life experience. Our blood vessels undergo wear and tear alongside a build up of troublesome plaque. All unavoidable.
For example, your teeth… they are made of a material with a particular strength… the tooth is a particular size that is practical for eating and communicating. The teeth WILL wear down with use, giving teeth a limited existence and the owner a limited life span. All organs can be compared to this. Note the limitation of organs such as teeth has no immunological connection.
“We were taught live cells (of the human body) are graveyards of viruses. When viruses replicate themselves they use our DNA/RNA. In the process, things can go wrong. One's DNA is changed or damaged. Cancer results. But an optimum immune system will keep out all bacteria and viruses. Problem solved.”
Sorry my friend, this is completely wrong. Cancer is a by-product of human diversity. We all look different and are different because of the way genes are replicated and are read. Reading errors provide diversity hence they have remained as diversity is beneficial. Cancer is not caused by viruses it is an error in the reading of dna (a genetic mutation). A minimum or 3 are required, more for angiogenesis and metastasis. These all require significant thought if it was a result of a punishment, so my question for believers remain… who designed this ? Who made sure we would REALLY suffer? In case you miss the point, a loving God would not do that. Also no longer can you claim with confidence thatGod wants to see this suffering end.. he designed every molecule of it!
Of course we know from science EXACTLY how cancer came about and know it was not designed as a punishment. Please go and read up on the pathology of cancer. I hope you are suitably embarrassed by your explanation for cancer and its.. easy fix.
“Mutations result because of faults in the DNA or RNA of our parents. When two of these faults overlap, its a disaster for the offspring. Since man chose independence from God, we have been going down hill fast.”
This is just made up. May I ask where you got this from as it is totally bizarre. Mutations occur in the cell of the host during mitosis. The source seems to be totally misunderstanding hereditary inheritance of genetic disease and genetic mutations. It’s also not always a disaster, where did you read that? Mutations can be beneficial. The reason your doctor tells you to finish your antibiotics, is that within the colony of bacteria you are suffering from, one will mutate a defence to the drug, not a disadvantage or ‘disaster’ at all. This is the same process as mutation in a human. An example for a human could be the mutation known as sickle cell anaemia, this mutation provides immunity to malaria. I am glad you admit that mutation exists however, as this is the one and only molecular basis for evolution. All evolution states is that
1) mutations occur
2) if beneficial that mutated organism will dominate in that environment
3) Over millions of years mutations alter species incrementally
All three can be seen in life today. As for it resulting in death well no as you can see mutations don’t lead to death. Consequence of a bad mutation can. But then again 10 out of 10 things die. We always have and always will. Without death there is no means of energy transfer, i.e. no nutritional cycle… no life.
“Babies are susceptible to many diseases because of underdeveloped immune systems. “
I don’t understand your focus on immunity. Babies are born and survive every day as the immune system is a perfectly fine system. Milk from the mother also provides antibodies. In what way is it broken and in what way could your god improve it? The only sense that a baby has a compromised immunity is that it has less memory B and T cells. These cells develop after an exposure to a specific disease, being a baby they have not been exposed to it obviously. Will your god give them memory B and T cells ? Why ? If there is no disease, the memory cells won’t be needed?
Going back to facts and known wisdom, babies do have disease, but not solely due to the immune system developing. They are multifactorial. Genetic and likewise. If exposed to infection then yes they can be killed. But that isn’t the only reason babies die! If a baby is born premature, without enough surfactant, it can’t breathe and dies… what has that got to do with immunity? Or a baby born with downs syndrome with a septal defect in the heart , it is born and dies from lack of perfusion to the brain. Where is the immune issue? If you don’t believe in evolution you have to accept that god designed all these complex processes in order to have that specific disease. With respect, you have no medical or scientific knowledge at all, but communicating it as if you know the subject. What you are doing is actually dangerous. You talk as if there is a switch in the immune system that has been turned off, though our immune system is working at its most functional. We know that bacteria and viruses were on the earth long before any other living animal today. This is the reason we have developed an immune system. ( I understand your ignorance will not cope with that statement just yet, please go read up on the evolution of the immune system to settle your doubts…… I’m sure you won’t however.) Besides, even if your conflicting to facts guess at Gods activity was correct, then still God would have had to design that switching off to cause as much suffering as possible.
“Old people are susceptible to many diseases because of faulty or aging immune systems. When cells are young, they flourish. When they become old they start dying off because of the "Border of Hayflick," something that could not be explained in my day.”
Hayflicks limit….[shakes head]...erm… as I said earlier this is the limit of telomere length, I have no doubt you pulled this from JW literature, and as usual they, and you…are totally ignorant to its understanding. Lobsters have cells that have no Hayflick limit. Do lobsters age? Do they live forever?
Human cells renew every 7 years, so what are you referring to when you say “when cells are young…” . Where have you got this information from? They don’t start dying off when you get old either. Cells ‘die off’ as early as the womb (apoptosis). They are just worn and torn due to reduced telomere length and life experience. If you really want to know then go read up on telomere length its effect on ageing. Maybe then you will be competent to ‘teach’ cell ageing to others online. But for now, you are like a man drowning in a sea of ignorance grasping at words that you don’t understand making them fit your world view . My friend, we have SCIENCE now, the means to learn via empirical evidence. Want to know why we age? Well we have the answers. Go read them. Or is that prickly fear stopping you, because you know the information available will identify the religion you inhabit false teachers and the bible oddly inaccurate ? You don’t fancy dealing with that, so for now… ignorance is bliss.
I bet when you get sick you go to the doctor , the doctor trained and educated with the same knowledge I am sharing here. Funny how the knowledge becomes trustworthy when its life and death.
“I was always impressed by the design and working of living cells. Man has not succeeded to create even one of them, even with the most advanced laboratories. That means man can replicate but he cannot create.”
I don’t think you have ANY understanding of the function of organelles (google it)and cellular activity. If you did you would see yes the complexity, but also the very simplicity of these functions.
Ok I really hope you read as far as this because I hope to garner your interest considerably
We can and have created life. A working living cell.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/20/AR2010052003336.html
We started off with just chemicals and formed the DNA, which was read by a ribosome and then created proteins, which formed the organelles etc and we ended up with a living, human made bacteria. Go research it for yourself. (Yes we used a ribosome from a cell to achieve this but before you go ‘ahhhh…..’ we are not far off making a ribosome artificially, its just a complex protein. I thought I would offer this to save you future embarrassment). I am awaiting for you to find a way to belittle the achievement. But while you do we will continue to make bacteria that we create to make oil. We will continue to make organs for medical research. We will continue to make babies in dishes for couples punished by god with infertility.
It’s such a strange thing to say that “man can only replicate, not create.” This sentence means nothing, yet it is spouted over and over again by Watchtower. Think about it… so what ? Who said we could create? ( see above because we can). Evolution says natural selection has motivated the dominance of genetic mutations in a species. Man copying sonar from a bat has no connection. Just a weird thing to say my friend.
If you have so much faith in the specific Jewish scrolls a pope once selected as gods holy books, over the work of men. Next time you get sick, or if you are currently sick, stop taking the meds and go consult the text. If you get cancer, stay away from the doctors and consult the bible. How much faith do you really have in the text over modern science? (Please don’t do this as you will die prematurely).
“…the above is compatible with my Bible-based faith, so I would explain it this way. “
And here we have the crux of the matter, the ‘nail on the head’. You want to believe an ancient text from the desert based on Babylonian, Egyptian and Jewish myth. Of course this text contradicts what we see and experience in today’s science. By this I mean facts. A closed mind then has to cope with this conflict… easy…. First: do not research recent findings and facts, and secondly…make up your own facts ….
“With a perfect immune system, you would be able to ward off any disease.”
“Because of imperfection you grow old and die.”
“We were taught live cells (of the human body) are graveyards of viruses. When viruses replicate themselves they use our DNA/RNA. In the process, things can go wrong. One's DNA is changed or damaged. Cancer results. But an optimum immune system will keep out all bacteria and viruses. Problem solved.”
“Mutations result because of faults in the DNA or RNA of our parents. When two of these faults overlap, its a disaster for the offspring. Since man chose independence from God, we have been going down hill fast.”
“Babies are susceptible to many diseases because of underdeveloped immune systems. “
“Old people are susceptible to many diseases because of faulty or aging immune systems. When cells are young, they flourish. When they become old they start dying off because of the "Border of Hayflick," something that could not be explained in my day.”
“man can replicate but he cannot create.”
If I asked you if you had a good knowledge of science, evolution, ageing, disease, biblical reasoning, theology, scriptural translation, history of the world, history of the Jews, … you may say yes. But apart from literature put in your hand from one source… how much actual research have you done to make sure your world view is right….. DINK DINK DINK….. I really hope that was the sound of a penny dropping.
May I suggest you start with “Biology” by Campbell and Reece. I will end by saying if you prove anything in a scientific textbook wrong or even questionable, they will be grateful to hear it and alter the knowledge accordingly. (Hypothesis generation, empirical facts, replicable testing and results alongside peer review will be required however, they won’t permit you to make shit up.)
Snare X
Back to my medical exams….
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An elder dropped by 2 weeks ago with the two 607 rags (OCT & NOV WT)...
by Alfred in...and a big smile on his face... as if to say "i can finally shut you up".... rewinding a bit.... about 18 months ago, i read "gentile times reconsidered" and discovered this doctrine had more holes than swiss cheese.
but it didn't end there, i read several studies in the scriptures, the even tide by john aquila brown (not all of it) and then proceeded to write multiple letters to brooklyn, all of which were responded to by dodging simple questions such as: "if the 70 years ended in 537 and jeremiah says there would be 70 years of servitude, which babyonian king were the jews serving between 539 and 537?".
i showed all three of the society's responses to an elder in my congo (even though he received copies of these himself) and he could see that they were "canned" responses that in no way anwered my queries.
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snare&racket
I understand, but your pain, frustration, time and effort is nothing more than a diversion from real life, love and your family. How often do you sit pondering why the imperial guard didn't just shoot the escape pod to be on the safe side...... Probably never... Because it doesn't matter. 607 bce and 1914 are as significant as a pigs fart in a tornado. None of its true, you will never reach satisfaction. As for convincing others.... Well I think Batman is awesome, my mate thinks spidey is. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter that he's wrong.... Cos I'm right ;)
Sorry for the jokey nature, move on my friend x
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Notorious A**hole Christopher Hitchens Thrown Into The Eternal Flames Of Gehenna
by Philadelphia Ponos inthe first time i heard of christopher hitchens was today when his named was mentioned multiple times in the comment section of a youtube video.
after reading a brief summary of his life, it became clear that this guy was a complete douche-bag.
a very arrogant sarcastic bigoted f**k who looked down on everyone who didn't share his beliefs.
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snare&racket
Jesus said love your enemies.... Pee pee says celebrate their death. How far the JWs have come. hitchens was a family man with beautiful children and a wife. He held a different view to you pee pee, already that holds him in good stead. He hated the evil god of the bible, the one you worship either in ignorance or in disturbed recognition of his sick acts and requests of genocide, infanticide, slavery, incest and alike. Pee pee, you can have your sick god for he exists as much as the promises of a paradise earth (not found in any biblical verse).
hitchens is now dead, as scary for him as his existence before birth... Simple nothingness. Guess what pee pee, we know that scares you more than he idea of infinite torment, pee pee you are nothing more than potential worm food.
Ten out of ten people die ......
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A little example of how severely the contributions for the Society are drying up
by sir82 injust a little tidbit from the congregation i attend..... the congregation has approximately 120 publishers.. well over 1000 magazines per month are picked up, not to mention all the books, brochures, and tracts that are picked up.. there was a "local needs" part on the service meeting recently, asking for more contributions.. it seems our congregation has averaged just about $300 per month contributions to the "worldwide work" over the past year.. .
assuming 1500 magazines / month, that's just 20 cents per magazine - and that completely ignores all other literature that is picked up.. the last price the magazines had, 20+ years ago, was 25 cents per issue.
with inflation that would have been about 50 cents each now.. just another sign of how severely the contriutions to the society are drying up..... .
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snare&racket
No one has mentioned the interest they charge their own brothers..... Or the demands to use society contracted dealers for such things as sound equipment at oddly extortionate prices.....