Outsmart - You keep mentioning the imperfections of the elders....and how people need to overlook them because we are all imperfect and we need to learn what true humility is.....etc etc. What you fail to discern with most of us is that the problem doesn't lie with the elders necessarily. They are just as much mind controlled as we all were at one point. The problem lies with the governing body.
DJ - How so? If you happen to know these men personally, the ones that sit on the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, then perhaps there is a legitimate reason for your disdain from them. For reasons unbeknownst to me, you don't much care for these men in the least, which is fine with me, but why should I care that you don't care for them much? Why aren't you man enough to take pencil or pen to paper and tell them what you think of them? Why would you be here telling me what you think about these men? I suppose I could contact these men and tell them that you don't like them very much, but I'm pretty sure that they would all of them think that I'd lost my senses passing on such tripe to them.
Outsmart - Never once did I indicate that I know these men personally. One does not have to know the President of the U.S. to determine whether or not he likes his leadership or the direction he is taking. For reasons unbeknownst to you? How about promulgating false prophecy? How about adding to the bible? ""When it comes to valueless words, elders too learn an important lesson. Whenever they are called upon to give counsel, they bear in mind their limitations and do not presume to offer counsel solely from their own personal store of knowledge. They should always point to what the Bible says. A sound rule is found in the words of the apostle Paul. "Do not go beyond the things that are written". Elders do not go beyond the things that are written in the bible. And by extension, they do not go beyond the bible-based counsel written in the publications of the faithful and discreet slave." (Apr 15, 2008 p7) The italicized portion of this text clearly shows that the FDS feels that they have the authority to "extend" the bible. They say that it is bible based but is it? Where does the bible say that buying a raffle ticket to help raise money for cancer is a form of greed? It doesn’t. The FDS made "extensions" to include that. Where does the bible say that a man should not have any "privileges" if he grows a beard? Where does the bible give the authority to disfellowship someone who refuses to curtail their association with a disfellowshipped person? The list of "extensions" is practically endless.
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Outsmart - This is a group of men that say "We also have the faithful and discreet slave appointed by Jesus to provide spiritual "food at the proper time". Thus God is still speaking. But are we listening?" (7-15-98 WT p 12). Yet these same men also say "the brothers preparing these publications are no infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers". (03-22-93 Awake p4). So which is it?
DJ - Your question here presupposes that the two things you mention here are mutually exclusive; that is to say, that it is not possible for the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses to represent the faithful and discreet slave and that it is also not possible that imperfect men can carry the water for Christ and yet the brothers responsible for preparing our many publications not be writing them under the inspiration of Jehovah God. Unfortunately, I don't believe these things to be mutually exclusive, so I'll let you figure out what it is you wanted to say but didn't, or let you shop the answer to your question with someone that thrives when someone asks them an imponderable like yours.
Outsmart - First of all….no, I never meant to indicate that it is impossible for the GB to represent the FDS. That being said….I do think that the whole idea of the term "slave" applying to a group of individuals in New York that "speak" for 143,993 others makes any sense. But that’s not part of the argument so I’ll leave it alone. I don’t see what is so imponderable. The Watchtower quote basically says that when the GB writes something it is just like God is speaking to us….hence…"are we listening". The Awake says "however…..we aren’t inspired". That doesn’t seem just a tad contradictory? Ultimately, their message is "we are not inspired, however you need to be listening and doing as we say". Remember….the WT article said "God is speaking to you through us (what we write)". The Awake said "but we’re not infallible". So how can a humble person (or in this case group of people) say that unity and obedience to their teachings must be maintained when they themselves admit that their teachings may very well change due to their own infallibility?
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Outsmart - Are they or are they not the sole channel of communication from God to his earthly servants?
DJ - The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses is not the sole channel of communication from God to his earthly servants. Rather, the composite anointed body of Christians is what constitutes God's sole channel of communication, to whom Jesus refers at Matthew 24:45 as the "faithful and discreet slave." BTW, the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is merely the legal instrument used by Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is neither the faithful and discreet slave nor is this entity God's sole channel of communication.
Outsmart - Really? "Christians who have truly received this anointing do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special insights beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have" (June 15, 2009 WT) How can the composite anointed body of Christians help direct what God says to the rank and file witnesses when they don’t have special insights beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd have? Perhaps you believe differently….but that isn’t what is taught by your fearless leaders. The GB represents the 144,000 (as you alluded to in your second paragraph above) and all spiritual food comes through THEM.
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Outsmart - What's the difference between being directed by God's spirit and being inspired by God? Does being inspired mean that you are divinely guaranteed to pen the correct words....but being directed by Holy Spirit means you may or may not get it right?
DJ - This last question of yours is a compound question , so I'll answer your second question first before answering the first one:
Yes and yes. Maybe you will recall, and maybe not, that when the matter of whether Gentile Christians should be circumcised arose back in 49 AD, Jehovah progressively revealed to the early Christian congregation through His spirit that circumcision was not a requirement for Gentile Christians or anyone converting to Christianity. But it is noteworthy that it wasn't just the holy spirit that decided the matter: "The holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you...." (Acts 15:28) Today, Jehovah's Witnesses submit to the leading of God's spirit when it comes to our prophetic interpretation of the Bible, but none of us speak by divine inspiration since those spiritual gifts ended when John, the last of the apostles, died. (1 Corinthians 13:8)
Outsmart - The purpose of Acts 15:28 is to show that the holy spirit directed them….and they agreed. Holy spirit directed +they followed = no problems. Notice he didn’t say "the holy spirit urged this…but we elected to go another route". Plainly, the holy spirit directed and they followed. What of the GB today? If they are forced to change a teaching, or flip flop on a previous decision then that means one of two things according to your logic. 1) the holy spirit directed them to a wrong conclusion which we know isn’t possible or 2) they went against what the holy spirit was telling them.
You also mention that none of us speak by divine inspiration. The April 15, 2011 WT (p4) asks the question to the reader, "How, then, do we react when we receive divine direction?" Guess what that article is about? The FDS. It is referring to information received through the slave .
"Who is this prophet? ... This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses. ... Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record.… Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel's work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the "prophet" commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God's Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom." Watchtower 1972 Apr 1 pp.197-199. Yet according to you, "none of us speak by divine inspiration". Tell me, how many of Jehovah’s prophets in the bible spoke without Divine inspiration? I shouldn’t get ahead of myself….but I assume you will say none. Yet this modern day "prophet" does speak without Divine inspiration? What gives them the right to do so? It is interesting to note that this 1972 Watchtower contradicts what 1 Cor 13:8 says about future prophets. Unless of course that scripture applies to everyone BUT the FDS.
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DJ - Since Jehovah's Witnesses put their faith in God's word, God's spirit may lead us to the realization that we may have gotten something wrong, that we may have drawn a wrong conclusion about something we may have understood differently in the past. Over the years, such progressive changes have occurred many tines as our understanding of the Bible increases, so over the years there have been many adjustments in our understanding, and these adjustments are published as soon as practicable in our literature, and at our Kingdom Halls, circuit and district assemblies.
But because Jehovah's Witnesses continue to be led by holy spirit, only qualified men are appointed to serve as overseers based on the standard provided in God's word, so in this way they are appointed by holy spirit according to the scriptural requirements set forth at 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9, and by the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses through the recommendations made by spiritually "certified men ... full of spirit and wisdom." (Acts 6:3)
As to your first question, the Bible was inspired by God, for the men that contributed to its pages were all "borne along by holy spirit" (2 Peter 1:21), but being directed by God's spirit requires one to submit to what things the holy spirit directs, that is to say, we are doing our best to adhere and subject ourselves to the spiritual guidance that Jehovah provides in the Bible. (Galatians 5:16, 18)
Outsmart - Your example of Acts 15:28 kills your argument. It says "The holy spirit AND WE OURSELVES". This indicates they were directed by holy spirit and they listened and followed. And by doing that…..they got it right. They didn’t have to change a previous decree or flip flop a decision. They got it right by listening to and doing what the holy spirit directed. When the FDS flip flops….why didn’t they listen to the holy spirit in the first place like the apostles did in Acts 15:28?
Only qualified men are appointed to serve as overseers? So my brother in law (who was appointed to serve as an elder as he was in the midst of reading "The Gentile Times Reconsidered") was appointed by the holy spirit? How about an elder from my congregation that was appointed as he was having an affair? Remember….only qualified men are appointed.
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Outsmart - And if you don't get it right, can you really say you were directed by the Holy Spirit in the first place?
DJ - Yes, for while God's word is infallible and Jehovah never gets it wrong, we ourselves sometimes do not get it right, but this in no way means that we are not directed by God's holy spirit. When we get something wrong, this simply means that we are not infallible -- which we already knew -- and that we need to make an adjustment in our viewpoint so that our view is in harmony with what we have since come to appreciate the Bible teaches in that regard.
Outsmart - Are you saying that when God’s spirit directs and the FDS gets it wrong anyways……it was because they either ignored the holy spirit or misinterpreted what it was telling them? You would never admit that they ignore holy spirit so we won’t even consider that argument. Therefore…..it must mean that they misinterpret. OK. Then 1) they are not equipped to be in the position they are in. If they can’t follow the holy spirit’s direction then why are they leading others? And 2) if they admittedly can’t follow the direction then how can they demand obedience to something they know may or may not be true?
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Outsmart - Regardless, the GB does claim that all edicts are coming from God.
DJ - I don't think this is so. The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses alone doesn't make such statements. It is Jehovah's Witnesses themselves, with the assent of our governing body, the central body of elders that is taking the lead in ensuring that the good news is being preached throughout the earth for a witness that submits to the instruction provided in God's word.
Outsmart - "It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." (June 15, 1957 WT p 370). Again, just use logic. When is that last time you heard from the stage or read in an article that the FDS thinks the rank and file witnesses should listen to and obey some of their directives? That some of their publications are from God? That some of their decisions were made with God’s direction?
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Outsmart - "How then do we react when we receive divine direction?" (04-15-2011 WT p4) What is the definition of divine? It is "proceeding from God". So these men claim not to be infallible....yet still claim that the directives issued are divine
DJ - Again, I must ask you: Why do you believe the divine direction we receive from Jehovah through his word, the Bible -- these directives to which you refer -- and our claim that not one of Jehovah's Witnesses is infallible are mutually exclusive? They aren't mutually exclusive at all.
Outsmart - Read that 4-15-11 article I mentioned. The question in quotations above was referring to information provided by the FDS….not information from the Bible. The comparison in that article was the FDS to Moses (both supposedly being directed by God). The FDS does indeed claim that the information they are "feeding the sheep" with is coming from a Divine origin. Simply put, coming from God means divine. Therefore if the directives coming from the FDS got their origin with God then yes…..they are Divine directives. "All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave." (Oct 1, 1994 WT p 8).
What does that magazine quote tell us? If we want to learn what the bible teaches our only hope is through the only channel of communication to God……the FDS. So when the FDS receives information, it is coming from the holy spirit, no? And if the holy spirit is God’s active force then he has to direct and send forth that active force, no? Therefore any time the FDS is "helped" to a decision by the holy spirit…..by God’s direction…or whatever you want to call it….. then ultimately it began with God. It is divine. You cannot claim that the FDS is directed by holy spirit, yet those directives somehow are not Divine. Does the holy spirit somehow, on its own accord, direct the FDS to write and teach the things they do without consulting Jehovah?
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Outsmart - Dude. You can't have it both ways. Either you are or you are not directed by God.
DJ - This is not what you just said here. We can have it both ways and we do: Jehovah's Witnesses are directed by God by means of his holy spirit, period.
Outsmart - Again, who puts forth that holy spirit? Does Jehovah have any control over it or does it act on its own accord? If it is controlled by Jehovah then any decision the FDS comes to by way of it is indeed Divine. So then….when "they get it wrong", did they ignore the direction by God or did they just not understand it. I don’t know of any biblical examples of ones being directed by God but getting it wrong because they didn’t understand. In the past….nobody misunderstood the direction the holy spirit was giving…..but you seem to think it’s ok for the FDS to do so. You’ve been incredibly evasive. To be sure…..in this spot, please give your definition for directed by God’s spirit:
Now in this spot, please give your definition for inspired by God:
If you have not already done so, please list and explain the contrasts between the two:
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Outsmart - If they are directed by God, they have no excuse for false prophecies and flip flops of teachings....unless.....God directed them to write/teach such a falsehood.
DJ - What "false prophecies" do you mean? Jehovah's Witnesses have neither taught nor published any false prophecies. If you don't mind, please name one of these false prophecies that we have taught or published. Please don't be vague or ambiguous, but be specific.
Outsmart - There are oodles of them. I’ll start by giving you two. 1) "October, 1914 will witness the full end of Babylon, "as a great millstone cast into the sea" utterly destroyed as a system". (June 15, 1911 WT p 190). It is common knowledge that Russell and the Bible Students expected the end to come in 1914. It is now 2011 and "Babylon" still exists. It was a prediction that did not come true…..otherwise known as a false prophecy. 2) "If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the "last days" in 1914, Jesus foretold: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." (May 22, 1969 Awake p15). If you were 10 years old when this was printed you are now 52. If you were 20 you are now 62. Let me guess….52 or 62 isn’t really "old", right? And this system ending in a "few years"? That didn’t happen either. Unless it is reasonable to believe that 42 years is "a few". There are dozens of others. The FDS has a 100% failure rate with predictions.
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Outsmart - Would God direct them to mislead 7,000,000 people?
DJ - This allegations suggests that Jehovah's Witnesses are guilty of misleading 7 million people in some way, which is not true. Again, if you don't mind, I'd like you to provide one example of our having misled anyone, let alone 7 million people, and with specificity, please.
Outsmart - Again, I’ll give you 2.
The end was originally supposed to have come in 1914. 1975. Within the lifetime of the generation that saw the events of 1914. The "men of old" were supposed to have been resurrected in 1925. Nothing happened. And this isn’t misleading?
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Outsmart - Yes we have biblical examples of imperfect men in the lead, such as the Bible writers. But let me ask you a question. How many of the bible writers got it wrong when they penned the scriptures?
DJ - None, for each of the 40 Bible writers wee borne along by holy spirit.
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Outsmart - Did Paul have to go back 10 years later and change what Luke wrote because of increased light?
DJ - No. Luke wrote as he was borne along by holy spirit.
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Outsmart - Did Nehemiah [misinterpret] the [blueprints] and have to start over during the rebuilding of Jerusalem?
DJ - You just asked this question when you asked how many of the Bible writers -- Nehemiah being one of the 40 men that contributed to the Bible in use today -- got it wrong when they penned the scriptures, and my answer is the same, none.
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Outsmart - If the Holy spirit in the past guided imperfect humans to follow Jehovah's direction perfectly and guided imperfect humans to pen his words perfectly.....and that same Holy Spirit is operational today.... then those directions should similarly be perfect.
Dj - The holy spirit that provided perfect guidance to imperfect humans in the past is the same holy spirit that provides perfect guidance to imperfect humans today.
Outsmart - If the holy spirit is providing perfect guidance today as it was back then….and none of the bible writers got it wrong due to the fact that the holy spirit was directing them….then why does the FDS get it wrong many times? You have still not made that distinction. Conversely, if the FDS can get it wrong today…….even though the holy spirit provides THE SAME perfect guidance to them as you allege above….then why didn’t any of the bible writers make mistakes?
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Outsmart - Simply put....if the Holy Spirit is directing you....you don't get it wrong. If you get it wrong....then it wasn't directing you, was it?
DJ - If this is what you believe to be true, then you are mistaken, because even though Jehovah's Witnesses are directed by holy spirit, we have at times 'gotten it wrong.' The fact that we have 'gotten in wrong' in the past does not mean that we were not being directed by holy spirit. However, if you are persuaded to a different opinion in this regard, that's your choice, but one thing has nothing to do with the other, except in your own mind. This question of yours is loaded as it assumes facts that are not in evidence. What is your proof that if Jehovah's Witnesses were being led by holy spirit that we shouldn't be getting anything wrong?
Outsmart - Personally, I believe that if holy spirit directs you, then it directs you to the correct conclusion. God didn’t send his holy spirit forth to a young David, who then put on full battle gear to go meet with Goliath……only to realize that he interpreted the direction of the holy spirit incorrectly….so then corrected himself by taking off all the armor, grabbed a sling shot and headed out for the battle field. The bible is full of examples of those who were directed by God’s holy spirit….and got it right. Now then….is there a scripture that says that when God’s spirit directs you are bound to get it right? Not that I know of. But if that is the case….then the governing body does not have the right to insist to the rank and file witnesses that they must believe a certain teaching in order to remain in good standing. I will get into this in more detail below.
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Outsmart - If these men have, do and will be wrong in their predictions and teachings then they have absolutely no right to demand unquestioning loyalty and unity and do not have God's authority to strictly enforce obedience to their ever changing doctrinal interpretations.
DJ - What are these "predictions" to which you refer? What "predictions" have Jehovah's Witnesses made? Jehovah's Witnesses have taught things in the past that we have since come to realize were erroneous and we have made necessary adjustments to our teaching, as appropriate. Contrary to what you have stated here, Jehovah's Witnesses do not demand anyone to give them unquestioning loyalty and unity, so it's clear to me that you made this up since you cannot prove this statement to be true. You are mistaken when you suggest that we believe we have been given the authority by God to strictly enforce obedience to ever changing doctrinal interpretations. Morever, Jehovah's Witnesses do possess the God-given authority to strictly enforce obedience to his righteous principles as set forth in the Bible, even if you should not think we do.
Outsmart - You need to look up your own true religious history as an organization. I’ve already given a few examples. But I can see that you’ve already handed over your mind to be programmed by the GB. I’m sure you are quite satisfied with the sugar coated "candid history" that the Proclaimers book paints. What if another religion were to have "predicted" that Armageddon would be here "before the generation that saw the events of 1914 unfold passes away"? The prediction fails when the 70 to 80 years that makes up a biblical generation came and went. (i.e. 1994) And then that religion reactively…not proactively (because 80 years has already passed) changes the definition of what a "generation" means. (i.e. 1995) I think that you and any reasonable person would say that the prediction failed, and they are false prophets. Again, the change in "definition" for "generation" was made after 80 years came and went. It was made out of necessity. The change in definition does not take away from the fact that what was taught up until the time of that change was indeed false. It was a prediction that did not come true. You can call it what you want. You can say that you’ve "made adjustments". You can call it a "past truth". You can call what you are teaching now a "present truth". The fact of the matter is that if what you are teaching today is not the same 20 years from now….then what you are teaching now isn’t the truth.
You’re right. Jehovah’s Witnesses (the rank and file) don’t demand anything. It is your fearless leaders. "We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval". (Jul 15, 2011 WT p24) "Avoid questioning the counsel provided by God’s visible organization"(Jan 15, 1983 WT p22) As rank and file witnesses….we are not to question teachings. We are to obey. According to them, if we do not obey them, we will not have Jehovah’s approval….meaning our eternal salvation hinges on it….and we cannot hope to understand the bible. The FDS has stated clearly in the past (see Apr 15, 1988 WT) that you do not have to be ACTIVELY spreading ideas that are not in tune with FDS teaching in order to be considered apostate. You simply have to BELIEVE differently. So….overall…we are told to obey. We are told not to question. And anyone that so much as believes anything other than exactly what they teach is subject to DF’ing and a lifetime of shunning from their former "friends" and immediate family. But other than that….no demands.
I never said that Jehovah’s Witnesses think they’ve been given the authority by God to enforce strict obedience to ever changing doctrinal interpretations. I said the GB has. And I am most certainly NOT mistaken when I say that they’ve given themselves the authority to strictly enforce obedience to their ever changing doctrinal interpretations. If you think I am mistaken, then why don’t you try teaching others both in the ministry and at the KH that the "superior authorities" are Jehovah and Jesus again. See what happens. You’ll either fall back into line and do/teach what they tell you to…or you’ll be DF’d. That, my friend is a strict enforcement of obedience to a changing doctrinal interpretation.
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Outsmart - Summing it up....we have men that claim they are speaking for God.....yet when things go wrong they say they aren't perfect and it is unreasonable to expect perfection.
DJ - I can agree that Jehovah's Witnesses are God's mouthpiece today, that we do speak for God. (2 Corinthians 5:20) I can also agree that when we get something wrong, this is because we are imperfect. (Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8) Lastly, I agree with you that it would be unreasonable for anyone to expect perfection from an imperfect creature. (Deuteronomy 32:5)
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Outsmart - Yet they also say in as many words, "if you want to avoid eternal destruction....you need to QUIT believing THIS....and START believing THIS.....because the teaching has changed."
DJ - This statement of yours is loaded in that it assumes facts that are not in evidence. When ever have Jehovah's Witnesses told anyone to quit believing something and to start believing something else for any reason?
Outsmart - With as much respect as I can muster up here…are you out of your mind? This is not a matter of rank and file witnesses telling "worldly" ones what they can and cannot believe. This is a matter of the governing body telling rank and file witnesses what they can and cannot believe. Again, try telling others at your KH that you believe something OTHER than what the FDS teaches. For instance if you were still going around telling others that the ones that saw the events of 1914 unfold positively will not die before the end comes, you’d be reprimanded pretty quickly. And why? Because the boys in Brooklyn changed the teaching and you are expected to accept it and not ask questions. And if you didn’t stop promulgating the old belief, you would be DF’d. As a Jehovah’s Witness, you are NOT allowed to have a different belief than the next JW. The point being….the FDS changed the meaning of the "generation" teaching. And using the above mentioned sources (i.e. obey the slave and do not question them) as guidance, IF you want to be "approved" by Jehovah, then you will unhesitatingly stop using the old belief and immediately adopt the new meaning. Your failure to follow the new edict from the governing body can and will result in your expulsion. Now, are you telling me that the GB doesn’t tell you what you can and cannot believe?
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Outsmart - Again...imperfect men...claiming to be speaking from God.....but only until the proverbial **** hits the fan and then demanding unquestioning loyalty to doctrines that can change at any time.
DJ - Jehovah's Witnesses do claim to speak for God and we have never taken some other position in this regard whenever it is some "proverbial ****" hits the fan," whatever this "proverbial ****" happens to be. Furthermore, Jehovah's Witnesses have never demanded unquestioning loyalty to doctrines by anyone. You make this same statement above, but you made this up since you cannot prove this statement of yours to be true.
Outsmart - OK. Let me get this straight. JW’s do speak for God yet somehow, as you put it, "none of us speak by divine inspiration?" So that means you are speaking for him but without His approval.? And yes, the GB has indeed taken "some other position in this regard". The GB has and will made doctrinal changes. And as a rank and file witness, you are obligated to roll with those changes if you want to remain a witness. The GB has put in writing that they are to be obeyed and not to be questioned. Yet they also write things like "The
Governing Body consists of a group of anointed Christian men. These preside over the worldwide activities of Jehovah's Witnesses. They are not inspired by God and hence are not infallible." (JW – Unitedly Doing Gods Will p26). So the governing body makes all these doctrinal changes throughout the years…..and the rank and file witness is obligated to follow along without questioning God’s mouthpiece. Yet they fall back on this provisional infallibility when predictions go wrong. Speaking of the 1975 debacle, here is one quote from the March 15, 1980 WT, "There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated. In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated ‘If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises’. In saying ‘anyone’, the Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date". Ultimately, the GB does indeed demand unity and loyalty to the organization amongst rank and file witnesses without questioning any teaching. Yet, when things go wrong such as what you just read above….they say "sorry, we admitted we’re imperfect already"….or in this case…they throw the blame back on the rank and file witness for "his own understanding" failing him.
So here is the basic message from the boys in Brooklyn. "Yes we may have been wrong. Oops…I mean greater light has been shed on this subject. As such we are changing the meaning and we now believe THIS instead. BUT, we are still God’s only mouthpiece and he is still directing our organization, so all you 7+ million witnesses out there need to begin believing the new, changed meaning. This edict will remain in force until the new, current meaning also becomes outdated. Then it too will be replaced by a newer interpretation that, yes, as a Jehovah’s Witness, you will be obligated to follow without question. But just as a side note…..we have never falsely prophesied, nor have we ever taught falsehoods. We just simply change our teachings when the light gets brighter to adapt to that new light. Anything we used to teach that is now obsolete is again…not a falsehood….but a "past truth"….since…you know….we have, and only teach "the truth.""
Seriously think about the deception and cunning word play the organization uses. Oh….let’s pretend that you sell widgets for a living. And you tell all your customers that their widgets will last for 10 years. But after 7 years….no one’s widgets work anymore so you are now standing before a judge on charges of false advertisement. The judge looks at you and asks "did you tell these people their widgets would last 10 years?" You answer "Yes, Sir". He responds with, "and that promise proved to be false, didn’t it?" Certainly at that point it would be reasonable to tell the judge, "actually it is a past truth, therefore I should not be held liable," right?
Again I will ask…….how can the governing body, when they admit that teachings can and have needed to be changed, still demand strict adherence to their teachings from the rank and file witness?
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Outsmart - That doesn't sound cult like?
DJ - Does what sound cultlike? Many of the people here on JWN are members of a cult, followers of Ray Franz, since these folks to whom I refer all seem to have read one or both of Franz' books, and subscribe to many of the things that Franz believed, just as one might expect any follower of a cult to do. Many of these folks tend to believe many of the same things and will often speak in agreement, with the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses being their principal foe-in-chief as they put on a pretense (some of them) of being Jehovah's Witnesses when these Franzite cult members are really counterfeit Christians.
Outsmart - Does what sound cult like? How about telling the individual witnesses that to have God’s approval they must obey your edicts even though you have been and will be wrong? How about telling individual witnesses that they cannot understand the bible without you? How about telling individual witnesses that believing something other than what we teach is punishable by excommunication and a subsequent shunning by all other witnesses? How about telling individual witnesses that they should avoid critical thinking in regard to the organization? How about telling individual witnesses that they should avoid independent thinking? You need to review what characteristics truly describe a cult. I will post a separate thread discussing mind control and propaganda as used by cults. The June 22, 2000 Awake and its self condemnation will be the focal point.
Let’s see…did Ray Franz start his own religion? No. Did Ray tell people to follow him if they want to be approved by God? No. Did he tell people they needed him to interpret the bible for them? No. Nobody follows Ray any more than they do any other intelligent source. I’ve read both of his books. Very insightful. Very meaningful….but in no way did he tell others what to believe. He encourages people to examine the scriptures deeply without a pre-determined mind set. I sometimes follow the advice of Steve Forbes and Warren Buffet as well. That doesn’t make them cult leaders nor does it make me a cult follower. They are just smart men with good advice and experiences to give. Kind of like Ray.
The only thing the people on this forum "tend to speak in agreement about" is that the governing body is the self-appointed mouthpiece of a destructive cult. Aside from that, the beliefs are quite varied.
