Posts by ScenicViewer

8

JW Funerals

by outsmartthesystem in

this is kinda out of the blue....but was brought on by the sad announcement from jwfacts of the passing of his father.

thankfully, that funeral talk was evidently a respectable one......but i have now been to two jw funerals myself in the past 2 years.

i have been extremely dismayed by the talk given in both of them.

The organization has actually pulled back on the sales pitch portion, and allowed more to be said about the individual. I saw a funeral talk outline in the early 1970s, and it was like a Public Talk at the KH. It covered the whole life, death, 144,000, other sheep/great crowd spectrum of Witness beliefs.

The idea was to 'take this fine opportunity to give a thorough witness'. Seems like it was a 45 min outline.

I look back on those talks and am definitely sickened by the memory of them, because they were geared to promote the organization, and the person who died was simply used as a spring board to advance the Society's interests.

20

Elder's KM School notes and apostates

by beavis in

this is a message to sir82 or anyone with information on the recent kingdom ministry school, .

i have had several discussions with a friend of mine whose brother went to km school and he said there was information given about those who no longer attend meetings and are baptized "are sort of viewed as apostates".

i was speaking with a family member of mine concerning this issue and two questions arose: 1. are the notes from the recent km school acurate?

ScenicViewer

atypical posted a quote under the heading,

Do you shun former members?

Where is the quote taken from? I searched the Wt index and couldn't find it.

The provided link no longer works.

5

Watchtower Modeled after what?

by Marvin Shilmer in

jw
friends

watchtower modeled after what?.

today i uploaded a new article to my blog comparing the model watchtower says its followed with the reality of watchtowers historical governing body.

it turns out the model was not much of a model.

ScenicViewer

Re: How the GB came to be over Knorr and Franz' objections,

Farkel said, " Raymond Franz answered that question in Crisis of Conscience. If you dare to be so lazy as to ask someone to answer the question for you in here, you just might face the lash!"

You mean I have to read a whole book just to find that out?

Would be a lot faster if someone just mentioned it.

Guys?

Please?

You can lash me.

Actually I did not know the answer was in that book. I have not read it.

Now it's on my 'to do' list.

5

Watchtower Modeled after what?

by Marvin Shilmer in

jw
friends

watchtower modeled after what?.

today i uploaded a new article to my blog comparing the model watchtower says its followed with the reality of watchtowers historical governing body.

it turns out the model was not much of a model.

ScenicViewer

According to Franz' testimony, decision making in those days (1950s) came down to the Vice-President, then the President, Franz and Knorr, so what they called a governing body then, the board of directors, really had little to do with governing Jehovah's Witnesses.

However in the 1970s it changed, so that the Pres and VP had no more control than any other GB member...is that not true? It's much more of a true governing body now, although I'm not sure how well it parallels the Apostolic council in the first century, certainly there isn't unaminous agreement today.

As a side point, I've wondered, if Knorr and Franz had the control, and they were both against the institution of today's governing body, how did the GB ever come to be?

60

Name Some Stupid Organization/ Congregation Rules

by minimus in

jw
friends

there's a lot of them!.

one rule is you can't wear a tee shirt with writing on it if you are working at a quick build kh .

nothing with logos.. let's add more stupid rules that were in your hall or that the organization has.. .

ScenicViewer

Having read most of these rules, I am a little struck by the Society's claim to not make rules. Notice this from Awake 1-8-2000, p27.

Paul points out that “where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.” (2 Corinthians 3:17; James 1:25) God wants us to use this freedom, not as an inducement for selfish cravings, but to train our perceptive powers to distinguish right from wrong. (Galatians 5:13; Hebrews 5:14; 1 Peter 2:16) Hence, in a matter where there is no clear violation of Bible principles, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not create a hard-and-fast rule. Instead, each Christian must weigh the circumstances at hand and make a personal decision.

7

jwfacts

by mankkeli in

ScenicViewer

This must be a statement about the Society's truths. There aren't any.

13

If You Had 5 minutes to Create Doubt

by roxanesophia in

i regularly encounter jw's i knew while studying and it kills me that they would likely not listen long enough for me to tell them the truth about the truth.

my mother says "don't even bother.

it's like finding out you were adopted.

ScenicViewer

I like to ask a few simple questions, not really expecting an answer. Such as....

-Are you familiar with the Society's pyramid worship days?

-Do you know how 1799 figured into the Society's thinking?

-How about 1874?

-What do you know about the 1925 Jubilee?

-Have you ever heard of Beth Sarim?

-Did you know that in 1941 the Society declared that 'Armageddon is only months away'?

-And that in 1969 the Society told high school graduates that they needed to 'accept the fact that they would never grow old in this system'?

-Did you know that in the early days of the blood issue it had nothing to do with transfusions, but the Society condemned getting small pox vaccinations?

-And that the Organization once declared there is no such thing as germs?

-Were you aware that until the 1980s interacial (black/white) couples were rejected from Gilead?

-Did you know that the Society once taught that women were nothing but 'a rag, a bone, and a hank of hair'?

-Do you know how many understandings the Society has had of the 'generation that will not pass away', from it's beginning until now? (6)

-How much do you really know about the Organization's true history?

And let them think. Sometimes information like this will soak in. They may want to know more.

22

I`ll play the devils advocate : generation change

by smiddy in

i have the wt may 15 1994 scan with the birthdates & deaths of the 16 people featured, and it occured to me using wt logic,that you could extend the generation timespan this way.. #6 d.d.

was born in 1892 and died in 1984. that was the earliest birth of this group.

#4 j.e was born in 1912 and died in 1997. the age gap between these two is 20 years.

ScenicViewer

You're an idiot.

Which means your figuring makes just enough sense that the Watchtower will probably adopt it!

P.S. I sincerely mean no disrespect to Smiddy.

28

who does the society consider as apostates?

by booby in

from their literature as source.

i did some searching and was surprised that i couldn't find them referring to those who simply quit and/or speak their doubts as such..

ScenicViewer

True apostates, according to the Bible, are people that have followed Jesus Christ, then turned away from him, actively opposing him. That is not always the way the Society applies the term.

When Witness say 'apostate' the word is almost always loaded with a slanted meaning. It's applied to anyone that has stopped following the Watchtower, even for good reasons, and actively talks about it.

(It occurs to me that by such spin, the Society has effectively made itself the equivalent of Christ.)

Randy Watters' resignation letter has a line that shows there are two kinds of apostates in Watchtower thinking, and one of them is clearly not supported by the Bible.

(Referring to a talk given to the Bethel family) "[Albert Schroeder] then holds up the Branch Organization Procedure book and pointed out it's 1,177 rules and regulations, knowing full well what Romans 7:6 says about Christians following sets of 'spiritual rules'. Then he actually admits that the beliefs of those dismissed [Dunlap, Franz, et al] were not an apostasy from the Bible, but from the organization! There IS a difference, isn't there?"

(Watters' letter is here, and it's a good read. http://www.freeminds.org/life-stories/bethelites/randy-s-letter-of-resignation-to-the-governing-body.html )

I am struck by what a violation this is of the Bible's instruction to 'not go beyond what is written'. 1Cor 4:6

26

Victoria, Australia: Report on Sept. 13th hearing involving Steven Unthank

by AndersonsInfo in

i received the following information from the xjw in australia who agreed to keep us all informed of whatever takes place at court hearings that involve steven unthank and the five watch tower entities that were recently criminally charged in victoria, australia.. .

this is the report for the hearing held on september 13, 2011.. .

barbara.

ScenicViewer

I believe that technically Barbara, and the Australian XJW are absolutely right, that anyone in a position of responsibility is no longer irreprehensible if they have been charged with a serious crime, and this should include members of the Governing Body.

If one single member of the GB was charged, he might be viewed as not being irreprehensible. But this isn't just one GB member, it is all of them. Who in the organization makes up the rules? It is the Governing Body, is it not? As a group they can make the rules, change the rules, spin the rules, twist the rules, and if the entire Governing Body was ever in a really serious situation, you can be assured there would be "new light" on whatever topic suited their needs.

After all, isn't the GB already going against the rules it gives to Jehovah's Witnesses on a day to day basis? Consider some of these references regarding obedience to Ceaser's laws.

(Emphasis added to all quotes)

(W 12-15-73 p741) They ‘pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar’ by complying with registration and tax laws and by obeying all the laws of the land that are not contrary to God’s laws as stated in the Bible. It is only when “Caesar” demands what belongs to God, namely, worship, devotion or anything that detracts from their acknowledgment of Jehovah’s sovereignty, that they must refuse, choosing to “obey God as ruler rather than men.”—Matt. 22:21; Acts 5:29.

(Awake 7-22-93, box on p17) [Regarding the flag] It is their belief that one shows true respect for the flag by obeying the laws of the land it represents.

(W 9-15-75 p549, 550) All of Jehovah’s witnesses are taught to respect civil authority, since Romans 13:1 says: “Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities,” that is, the civil governments. Hence, Jehovah’s witnesses obey all the laws of the land that do not conflict with the laws of God.

(Road to Life (book) Ch7 'Who Practice True Religion', Subheading 'Identifying True Worshipers') Likewise, the Witnesses take no part in the politics, nationalism, and class struggles of this world. However, they do pay their taxes and obey the laws of the land in which they live.—John 15:19; Romans 13:1, 7.

(W 5-15-80 p5) "Hence, it follows that there must be willingness, or at least a yielding, on the part of the governed for such governments to accomplish their purpose. That is why God’s Word commands Christians to “be in subjection . . . for there is no authority except by God.” So Christians are to obey the laws of the land, being conscientious in the paying of taxes, in heeding traffic regulations and in carrying out other obligations. All of this is in the interest of peace and order.—Rom. 13:1-7."

The Society and Bodies of Elders everywhere will quickly apply these references to individual Witnesses, but the Society itself, including the Governing Body, goes by it's own impulses and needs, and often violates the very principals it pretends to stand for, with seeming impunity.

That is the organizational attitued. Maybe one day the Watchtower will will be made to answer for it's hipocrasy. Maybe Steven Unthank will make a dent.