Posts by ScenicViewer

102

Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

by darkspilver in

day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

ScenicViewer

More gibberish from Fisherman.

In a Court of public opinion

No, it has nothing to do with a court of public opinion. It only has to do with the testimony of this trial. Watchtower's defense, even the testimony of it's own witness Thomas Jefferson, Jr was embarrassing. There was no defense there.

But in a Court of law, the jury cannot leave the Court room and reach a verdict before the party is over.

No one said the jury reached a verdict. Reaching a verdict is what Watchtower wanted to avoid the most, and did so by settling. And why did Watchtower want to avoid a jury verdict at all cost? Because it was losing. Big time.

A verdict would have resulted in more public humiliation than Watchtower has already endured, and likely much more loss of money. And consider the appeals that likely would have followed for years - it would have been another Candace Conti disaster for Watchtower.

Another verdict is the last thing Watchtower will tolerate, and I don't blame them. They are bleeding profusely as a result of these trials.

You, Fisherman, know all of this but you continue to hide your Watchtower apologist attitudes behind a cloak of misapplied legal concepts and jargon, such as this....

If you can show law that Defendants were found legally liable of anything in this case, you can post it on this thread.

If only you could see your slanted ideas the way others see them. You are humiliating yourself just like Watchtower did in this trial, but you have your head buried so deep in the sand of denial that you refuse to see it. At least Watchtower had the good sense to cut it short.

102

Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

by darkspilver in

day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

ScenicViewer

Watchtower capitulated on the third day in a shocking admission to the judge and the entire court that elders were indeed clergy. I will be reporting further on this

Wow, that sounds yummy!

17

The 26 Prophetic Failures of Watchtower’s Most Heralded Date, 1914

by FatFreek 2005 in

below is a paste of the front of this, my recent, essay.

most jws, and lurkers here, have never really thought of the scope of watchtower's 1914 prophecy.

to them, 1914 was a simple one and done -- a mistake was made and it's been corrected.

ScenicViewer

". . . So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: '1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed ... Instead of its being considered a 'probability', they read into it that it was a 'certainty', and some prepared for their own loved ones with expectancy of their resurrection." 1975 Yearbook, p. 146.

They couldn’t have solicited a better testimony. Here, the blurred reminiscence of some innocent elderly person would serve their purpose....

And sometimes it goes beyond the blurred memories of older Witnesses, because often the older ones are simply repeating what other Witnesses have said. Almost never do Witnesses bother to check out what they hear from other Witnesses, which results in repeating lies and misleading information.

Sadly, modern day Witnesses believe everything they hear the older ones say, figuring 'that person was there and would never lie,' when the reality is the person they are listening to is only repeating something they themselves heard. This goes down as 'solid truth' to the majority of JWs.

102

Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

by darkspilver in

day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

ScenicViewer

Fisherman: The jury reached a private verdict without hearing the Defense?

Oh dear. Have you bothered to read any of the reports of this trial?

Watchtower's defense had their shot at every witness until they decided to settle. Even Watchtower's man on the stand, Thomas Jefferson, Jr, was a poor witness whether questioned by the plaintiff's attorneys or the defense's attorneys.

The Watchtower defense was so weak you could say it was crumbling. Or nonexistent to begin with.

From John Redwoods summary:

From the moment Thomas Jefferson took the stand on behalf of Watchtower and the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses (CCJW), there was an air of bedlam, confusion, and frustration. The jury of seven women and three men sat facing Jefferson in disbelief, as he struggled to answer questions – and the ones he did answer left the entire courtroom scratching their heads.

More details here, http://jwsurvey.org/child-abuse-2/breaking-news-watchtowers-defense-collapses-jehovahs-witnesses-reproved-for-failure-to-report-child-abuse-settlement-with-fessler-reached

102

Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

by darkspilver in

day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

ScenicViewer

It appears that Watchtower has developed a new strategy in handling these cases.

When sued...

Make a low offer to pay off the victim.
If the offer is rejected proceed with trial. Test the waters for a few days to see how it is going.
If the trial is going in Watchtower's favor, proceed to the end. If they get a win they have bragging rights.
If the trial is going badly, simply throw in the towel and write a big, fat check to the victim.

This method saves the public humiliation of losing as in the Candace Conti case and the ongoing Jose Lopez (and others) vs Gonzalo Campos cases that have resulted in massive public exposure of Watchtower's pathetic child protection policies.

It addition to the embarrassing public exposure there are the multi-million dollar judgements which are hitting Watchtower hard. Add to that the sometimes massive punitive damages, followed by appeal after appeal, and in the end Watchtower looses money, reputation, and credibility, even among many of it's own followers who inevitably become aware of the proceedings.

With a payoff, after testing the waters of the trial, Watchtower can claim it didn't lose and the negative publicity is kept to a minimum. We can't know how large the payoffs are, but when the plaintiff has a strong case the payoffs must be hefty in order for Watchtower to close out the matter and walk away.

I strongly believe that Watchtower cares much more about the negative exposure than the money.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

ScenicViewer

...I am still a little surprised however that the WTS did not push down the legal line further and try and establish this case as a precedent for limiting their liability and culpability...

I honestly think Watchtower would have pushed farther if it hadn't been for the Candace Conti case a few years ago. More damage was done to Watchtower from the negative publicity and exposure than from the financial loss.

Conti was followed by the Jose Lopez (the victim) case vs Gonzalo Campos (the abuser). That case included Watchtower defying court orders which went to appeal. The trial, plus the appeals that followed, brought even more negative attention to Watchtower.

From the linked article in the OP:

The Watchtower maintains a database of alleged child abusers in congregations across the U.S. going back two decades and has violated court orders in at least three California lawsuits to hand it over to the courts.
It could provide a road map to thousands of accused child molesters living freely in communities across the country.

The same court orders that were defied previously, involving the database mentioned above, likely would have come into play in this trial too, leading to even more sanctions against Watchtower and more negative press. Watchtower will spend lots and lots of money to protect its database of child abusers.

I think the Organization is in damage control mode at this point. The financial losses are minor compared to the public thrashing they are receiving which causes a loss of both members and a great deal of money. After 4 days of trial Watchtower came to court on Monday prepared to up it's initial offer of $100,000.00 significantly, realizing their chances of winning were slim.

If I recall correctly the victim was only asking for $1.9 million, and there would have been a punitive damage phase to the trial - for failing to report child abuse in a mandatory reporting state, and for failing to properly protect the victim from further abuse after knowing about it - which could have amounted to more than the compensatory award.

It has been suggested that victim Fessler's case wasn't going well and that she decided to give in and accept the initial low offer, but I believe that is unlikely. Watchtower needs a win over which it can boast, and if it thought there was a possibility of winning it would have stuck with the trial to the end.

When the report on days 2, 3, and 4 of the trial are in we might possibly have a clearer picture of which way the trial was leaning, but at this point I believe Watchtower was prepared to get out by paying the victim a substantial amount of money.

I wonder if they are actually more keen to silence the noise than have a very public fight?

IMO, you nailed it.

64

Day 1 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Opening Statements and Motions in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

by AndersonsInfo in

news bulletin: fessler versus watchtower – opening statements and motions in jehovah’s witness child abuse trial – day 1. .

posted on february 12, 2017. city hall, philadelphia, pennsylvania.

on a cold philadelphia morning the 7th of february, 2017, stephanie fessler walked into the court of common pleas of pennsylvania, first judicial district, civil trial division.

ScenicViewer

G 8/09 p 23
In order to adhere closely to the pattern set down in the Bible, Jehovah’s Witnesses have, not a clergy class, but unpaid spiritual shepherds and teachers who willingly minister to God’s flock.

Jehovah's Witnesses have unpaid spiritual shepherds rather than a clergy class? Watchtower is here dishonestly implying that all clergy are paid, and that since JW elders are not paid they are not clergy. This is very tricky and erroneous wording.

Not all churches have a paid clergy. I was raised in one that did not. Although some branches of the church used 'located ministers' that were paid, other branches used local men to take care of a normal ministers duties, much like JWs use elders.

Elders are clergy no matter how you slant it. Watchtower's constant denials of having a clergy class are only to try to make JWs look better, more Biblical, more holy, than other churches.

There are plenty of JWs that are paid too - missionaries, special pioneers, COs, DOs, and to a degree Bethel workers. I've often wondered how much GB members make. Not to mention that all their living expenses are paid, including business class travel. Then there are the 'green handshakes.' I tend to think they do very well.

Doesn't the Organization call these payments a 'stipend?' Using Richard Oliver's trick of only quoting the second definition, dictionary.com says...

Stipend: fixed or regular pay; salary.

60

Stephanie Fessler v Watch Tower - Trial on Tuesday, Feb. 7, 2017 in Pennsylvania

by AndersonsInfo in

http://avoidjw.org/2017/02/stephanie-fessler-v-watch-tower/.

stephanie fessler v watch tower.

stephanie fessler was brought up as a jehovah’s witness by her parents, jodee and kevin.

ScenicViewer

BTTT. Any news on this trial?

22

Hi I'm new to the site

by Raque Invierno in

hi everyone, i've just registered and thought i might introduce myself and tell my experience.

my name's raquel.. i was born into a jw family.

i started leading a double life around 14y/o and got caught drinking by another sister when i was 15 and saw that as my opportunity to quit the panthomime and stopped going to the meetings.

ScenicViewer

...my opportunity to quit the panthomime...

Love the expression! So many Jehovah's Witnesses are simply going through the motions, even those who still believe.

Welcome to the board and to your freedom.

61

Or was it Designed???

by Slidin Fast in

awake!

1 2017 says on its back page.

the saharan silver ant (cataglyphis bombycina) is one of the most heat-tolerant land animals known.

ScenicViewer

The Saharan silver ant’s compound heat shield helps the insect to keep its body temperature below the maximum it can tolerate—128.5 degrees Fahrenheit (53.6°C).
Did the compound heat shield of the Saharan silver ant come about by evolution? Or was it designed? What do you think?

Doesn't this set up a contradiction within the Watchtower belief system?

Watchtower subscribes to the "water canopy" theory in understanding Genesis 1:6,7

6 And God went on to say: “Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.” 7 Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so.

Watchtower explains that the layer of water "above the expanse" (the water canopy) provided the flood water of Noah's day when God caused it to collapse, and that before the flood the extreme temperatures of today did not exist. Rather than having the frozen poles of the arctic and antarctic, and the extreme heat of deserts, the water canopy caused temperatures world wide to be moderate. They describe as a hothouse effect.

(As a side point Watchtower claims the collapse of the water canopy is how mammoths became suddenly frozen, with green grass still in their mouths and stomachs. When the water canopy collapsed there was a sudden deep freeze at the poles.)

So, why would God create insects with a heat shield that were designed to tolerate extreme heat if extreme heat did not exist at the time of creation?