Posts by mikctr

30

Dateline

by Jacinta in

my mom (a jw) watched the dateline program.

i asked her the next day what she thought of it.

she told me that erica was not a jw and that is why they did not support her in court.

Hind sight is sometimes 20/20. But dealing with the facts as they stand in this case, I think it would be handled very appropriately. I don't think it would have been the 'elder's' place to go to the police if not required of them. They are NOT the police and should NOT BE police. Again, let the vicitms and their families deal with it the way they choose. They have that right and justification - and backing. I have not seen that the WT doesn't allow for that. Their policies state clearly that it's up to the victim and the family whether or not to persue legal charges. Is there anything wrong with not reporting? What's the goal here? To stop the abuse or to send someone to jail? Does the princible just apply to molestation or does it go for any and all infractions within the congregation? Take 'em all to court? Which ones 'yes' and which ones 'no'?

Yes, I do analyze. How else can conclusions be drawn? I don't 'SYMPATHIZE' with a crime. I can and do 'EMPATHIZE'. If we can't do that, and teach others to do the same, nothing can ever change.

Hey, do we reeeely have to get into MY problems in this forum? lol That would put us WAY off the topic(s)..... and for soooo long....

30

Dateline

by Jacinta in

my mom (a jw) watched the dateline program.

i asked her the next day what she thought of it.

she told me that erica was not a jw and that is why they did not support her in court.

mikctr

keekeedeb,

The ONLY way to begin to heal is by doing exactly what you're doing: Take it and run with it. It's YOUR life that has been messed up, it's YOUR responsibility to do something about it! Go for it!! You have my 100% support. Out of the two choices you have, being a victim or survivor, you're choosing the longer, but much more rewarding road! But whether you choose to remain a victim or a survivor, you're getting what you want either way.

mik

30

Dateline

by Jacinta in

my mom (a jw) watched the dateline program.

i asked her the next day what she thought of it.

she told me that erica was not a jw and that is why they did not support her in court.

mikctr

Guess one of the nice things about a 'board' like this is that no one knows who you are, what you are, why you are or anything else, huh? LOL

Scenario:

Person studies, is baptized, learns more about the bible than thought was even there. Realizes that even though baptized, there are still some things in his life that are in need of 'repair'. He's haunted by nightmares. Can't hold a job. Afraid of everyone and everything but quite adept at maintaining a great facade, doing/being what he thinks people want him to be.

He goes into therapy and begins deal with being raped at 8 by three teenage boys in a "Church School" growing up and continues to be molested though his teens. Begins to understand and piece together what the abuse is doing to his life and where all the fears and anxieties are coming from. He also realizes that he has followed in the steps of his abusers and has also vicitimized others. He goes to the elders AND families in the congregation realizing the need of change and asking for help in doing so. He's not 'reported' by the elders he confides in, but is severely reprooved.

HE chooses to go to the police himself, wanting to KNOW that the "silent lambs" are given the opportunity to be heard in any and all forums available to them - something he didn't have as a lamb; wanting to do anything in his power to make amends.

Great story, huh?

Where does this person blong in the world? Where would YOU ('you' in general terms...) have him? Where would he fit in in the congregation? - or would he? Would he ever? If so, when? Under what cercumstances? Suicide would be a great choice for him, right? But then what would everyone else talk about? What would everyone else be busy with without such gossip and hear-say? Who'd fuel the chat rooms and discussion boards?

With the 'support' available, suicide would be the best option, right? Should he be angry with the congregation or the elders for not being at his side every minute during his jail time? For not letting him be a Ministerial Servant? For not allowing him to go in service with whom he choses - or at all? Fortunately, he IS learning, for the first time in his LIFE, HOW to make appropriate choices now. He has qualified people to help teach him.

Most people would want to call him a pedophile. Does that make THEM feel superior or something.... Do they know the definition and does it fit? Maybe he is.... The world would want to brand him for life. Anyone ever told a lie? Does that make them a 'Liar' forever? Is that who they ARE? Maybe just a lost sheep who has painfully found his way, with a lot of wounds and scars, to a better place for himself and others.

His probems go much deeper than most people on a 'discussion board' are capable of dealing with. Most should be thrilled not to be an 'elder' and have to deal with the problems presented - or should they strive to be more 'qualified' in order to help? Is it just HIM they're helping or is it an entire congregation? Is there one vicitim, or has the whole congregation been vicimized and in need of help and healing?

Heavy for anyone to deal with in a 'just' way.

Just a story....

30

Dateline

by Jacinta in

my mom (a jw) watched the dateline program.

i asked her the next day what she thought of it.

she told me that erica was not a jw and that is why they did not support her in court.

mikctr

Capiche. Go Silent Lambs. And if that's what they want, they have it. It's THEIR choice whether to go to the police or not - even the WT agrees on that point. If someone is in the congregation, they SHOULD go to the 'elders', too, right?

Missed the meaning in the '[my]particular grinding of the axe' part. I don't think, at least it was surely not intended to be implied by me that any vicitm of abuse should not have support and help. Maybe I'M just not clear on what the "Topic" is? Are you saying that you would like to see the WT report and 'disfellowship' anyone who abused a child and that be the end of that? I'm trying to see this from all sides objectively.

30

Dateline

by Jacinta in

my mom (a jw) watched the dateline program.

i asked her the next day what she thought of it.

she told me that erica was not a jw and that is why they did not support her in court.

mikctr

Do JWs believe it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the WT to 'PROTECT' them? From what I've seen and heard from them, they make it clear that 'wisdom' on the part of individuals serves as protection and their responsibility is to keep the 'congregations' clean. The carpets and the windows ARE their concern - lol - along with the 'spiritual well-being' of the congregation. Nowhere have I seen that they even WANT to replace the 'civil authorities' proper right to act.

What is it that people WANT? If it's a change in WT policy that reports suspected abusers (or KNOWN abusers), the only way that will happen is if it becomes state's law that 'clergy' do so. I would have no doubt in the world that the WT would comply - as they do in the States that do require reporting. The "Laws of the Land" do NOT (contrary to popular belief....) always 'protect' people (hmmmm... another example of 'governments' inability to provide what people need?). If we could have what we need by law and legislature, the WT would not be in existance nor teaching of a time when a different government would and could handle things in a way that was beneficial to all.

If you believe that the government CAN do something to solve the problems that are EVERYWHERE, by all means, jump on the politcal bandwaggon and make your vote and voice be heard! Personally, having dealt with it (and working for a State Agency), I sure wouldn't put MY trust in any changes they would make. History would suggest for every problem solved, fifty more, some of which are worse than the originals...., arise.

I've not heard anyone mention what they believe the WT's policy should be. Usually, when someone is bitching about something with no solutions, there's more behind it than the 'topic at hand'. Usually pain. I say that from personal experience - and YEARS of it. Anyone? How about some 'policies' that would stay in harmony with Bible teachings on the topic of dealing with someone who is either reported to the elders or who comes to the elders with a REAL problem (not to discuss whether Star Wars is appropriate entertainment....). What do they, as 'clergy' do?

Let's twalk amoungst ourselves. Topic: What is it that 'we' want!? Or are we on a quest for 'control' over something that, although we should have control over, we don't have, and will not have control over in the world we live in?

30

Dateline

by Jacinta in

my mom (a jw) watched the dateline program.

i asked her the next day what she thought of it.

she told me that erica was not a jw and that is why they did not support her in court.

mikctr

I don't see where their claims of 'sole channel' has bearing on what I was talking about. 'Sole channel' or not, they still live in the same world as the others and are under the same laws - which, from what I've seen, they, as a group, uphold. The big scandal lately with the Catholic Church comes from holding a known offender in a position of authority and INTENTIONALLY covering it, thus subjecting more to the same offenses. I don't see that happening in the way the WatchTower handles the same situations (and ALL organizations have them...). I have yet to see where an 'Elder' was a known offender and was moved in 'good standing' to another congregation to hide the fact. I'd say there is a BIG and OBVIOUS difference. I would objectively have to say that the WT is obviously NOT following the practices of other churches in this.

The rest of what you're saying about being subject to 'disciplinary action' if they go public, I don't know. Unless you've actually BEEN there... I would question whether a person 'going public' means, by definition, going to the police, or going to the press. There are ways of handling things without sensationalizing. (boy could I get into trouble for that one...). I don't see that the WT policy does not allow for that freedom and right of a victim - at least in any written documentation I've seen (or anything I've heard). For me, it be hard to not go to the press.... Once you finally have enough voice to deal with being abused, you want to SCREAM it so EVERYONE will know. There is a lot of anger. Justifiably so....

Like I said, it would be out of the character that I've seen for someone to 'disciplined' for carying out their rights in a situation like that.

What a wonderful thing it would be for an abuser to be genuinely sorry for what he/she has done, repent of it (including taking action to LEARN how to deal with it, taking repsonsiblity in order to stop the abuse), ask for forgiveness - and find it - and NOT HAVE to go to prison for it! Maybe in a perfect world.... Sometimes in the world we've got in some circumstances..... What is it we're looking for here? Justice? Fry 'em all!! But we should all watch out for the frying pan AND the flames, people.... Any one of us is next - if you're not already there....lol.

If the people who abused me were to walk up to me and confront THEIR problem, showing evidence that they understood they went wrong and were working to correct it (and had in place a system for help should they head in the wrong direction), what would/should I do? Toughie..... "Forgive us our debts AS we forgive our debtors"? Ouch.... I guess IF I were following the bible and wanted to accept that 'grace' or 'undeserved kindness' myself I would need to be willing to forgive. On the other hand, it is still within my rights to forgive them freely as I let the court system deal out the justice it sees fit. My choice and not one to be questioned.

Possibly causing a ruckus within a congregation with the intent of division would be a different matter. But then, there's usually TWO sides to EVERY story - and then there's the truth.... Hey, look at OJ Simpson....

Thanks for the reply.

30

Dateline

by Jacinta in

my mom (a jw) watched the dateline program.

i asked her the next day what she thought of it.

she told me that erica was not a jw and that is why they did not support her in court.

mikctr

Please bear with me and give me HONEST feedback. I'm looking at this situation as if there are two distinct entities here: 1) The Law and 2) A religeous organizaions (ALL of them). I don't see that what the Watchtower does is any different than what any other organization would do - other than it does not allow the offender to either maintain or ATTAIN privileges in the congregation. If they're not under a law that requires them to report, then why down THEM for their policies instead of going to local legislature and having the reporting requirements changed? ALL religeons are protected uder the same laws of confidentiality between "clergy" and "parishioners". I agree that child molestation is a serious problem. As a survivor, I can't BEGIN to explain my stand on that. From the standpoint of ANY "CHRISTIAN", I would be under obligation to accept and support a repentant "brother" - not let them baby-sit....

I've had a very difficult time dealing with my abuse and there's still a lot of anger there. I don't WANT it there, but it is. I've also done some lousy things in my life that as a Christian, I'm thankful that we're not the judges. I've learned how Justice and Mercy go together. Under LAW, we should all be hanged. Tempered by Mercy, we have a CHANCE to change... "Grace"? "'UNDESERVED' kindness"? Fer sher.... All I can do is learn and apply and do better. What more 'chance' do any of us deserve? "Good people do bad things sometimes". Where would ANY of us be if we could no longer look at ourselves as 'good people' who have made mistakes, but were damned by society and our own 'brothers'? Is there ANY hope for a child molester? Murderer? Rapist? Enron? Isn't that what "Christianity" is all about? Hope? It doesn't tell us to be stupid or to ignor, but to be wise and cautious. Real challenge, huh? More of a challenge when it hits home, wherever that is.