Sulla

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Posts by Sulla

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  268

  Is Biblical Morality Situational, Based Upon the Arbitrary Whims of Yahweh?

  by leavingwt in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  is biblical morality situational, based upon the arbitrary whims of yahweh?

  murder is wrong... if god orders it however, then murder is right, and failing to murder is a sin.. .

  exodus 20:13 versus 1 samuel 15:1, 7-11. .

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  Sulla

  Yeah, but cofty, you and others present these sorts of arguments as if they were shocking news. This whole thread is presented as if nobody ever actually read the bible: "Golly, guys, did you have any idea???!!!"

  Well, yea, actually. We always had a pretty good idea. The ones who seem not to actually have an idea are those who imagine that the morality by which they critique scripture is critically dependent on the ideas found within scripture. Again, you are really complaining that God didn't make everybody perfect right away -- or anyway, that he didn't give everybody your particular moral code immediately, by which you mean the same thing.
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  64

  Transubstantiation?

  by leavingwt in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does anyone here accept the doctrine of transubstantiation?

  if so, please elaborate.

  theology: the changing of the elements of the bread and wine, when they are consecrated in the eucharist, into the body and blood of christ (a doctrine of the roman catholic church).

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  Sulla

  That's a little present-ist, isn't it? We can be reasonably certain that the Christians of the primitive Church were quite aware that the bread and wine, since they do not taste like blood and flesh, were not transformed in a way perceptable to the senses. So, your modern scientific test would tell us exactly what everybody already knew. The claim is one of spiritual reality.
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  268

  Is Biblical Morality Situational, Based Upon the Arbitrary Whims of Yahweh?

  by leavingwt in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  is biblical morality situational, based upon the arbitrary whims of yahweh?

  murder is wrong... if god orders it however, then murder is right, and failing to murder is a sin.. .

  exodus 20:13 versus 1 samuel 15:1, 7-11. .

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  Sulla

  Yeah, james woods, there are obvious contradictions. But they are hardly something that we've just discovered in the last couple decades. Hell, the complaint that the OT is filled with really horrible stuff was behind the Marconian controversy (I speak from memory, so it could have been somebody else). That idea ran in the gnostic tradition that the OT is the work of the evil creator god who is opposition to the good NT God. As such, the proper thing to do was to eliminate the OT from the Christian religion, focusing instead on all the "love thy neighbor" NT stuff.

  Point is, the raping and killing and all the rest of it has always created some tension within the Christian community. For that matter, the same could be said for the Jewish community. But that doesn't imply that morality is arbitrary.
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  268

  Is Biblical Morality Situational, Based Upon the Arbitrary Whims of Yahweh?

  by leavingwt in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  is biblical morality situational, based upon the arbitrary whims of yahweh?

  murder is wrong... if god orders it however, then murder is right, and failing to murder is a sin.. .

  exodus 20:13 versus 1 samuel 15:1, 7-11. .

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  Sulla

  Let me suggest, leavingwt, that these sorts of lists, developed from these sorts of web sites as you link, are attacks on a particular, American-fundamentalist, mode of reading scripture. They're fine, so far as they go. But to read these points as somehow having any bearing on the ancient traditions of reading these works (Jewish and Christian) is a pretty big mistake.
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  7

  Some Things I Have Learned Up Till Now

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  (interspersed with opinions of course...) .

  it will be 6 years since i left the sickness known as jehovah's witnesses.

  whew!

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  Sulla

  Good advice, ATJ. I'd just add that part of the problems lots of JWs have is figuring out how far to prune. By that, I just mean that JW-ism is both profoundly harmful and, after enough time, so intrinsic to one's outlook that it is quite a challenge to know what (if anything) you can keep. Smoking, to pick an example, is not good simply because the JWs think it's bad.

  The other risk is that, cut free from the very restrictive modes of thought, we often wind up a little helpless. Since most JWs haven't developed their thinking, the first order of business is to develop effective reasoning. Since the education that we didn't focus on takes a very long time to get, we shouldn't expect that this is an easy process.
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  64

  Transubstantiation?

  by leavingwt in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does anyone here accept the doctrine of transubstantiation?

  if so, please elaborate.

  theology: the changing of the elements of the bread and wine, when they are consecrated in the eucharist, into the body and blood of christ (a doctrine of the roman catholic church).

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  Sulla

  Well, then, you have a problem with Christianity from the very beginning. It has always been vaguely cannibalistic.
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  64

  Transubstantiation?

  by leavingwt in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does anyone here accept the doctrine of transubstantiation?

  if so, please elaborate.

  theology: the changing of the elements of the bread and wine, when they are consecrated in the eucharist, into the body and blood of christ (a doctrine of the roman catholic church).

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  Sulla

  But why should anybody suppose Jesus was raised from the dead in a way to preclude his ever dying again ...dispensed the Paraclete to aid his Church, and ... died for our sins? There is as much evidence that Elvis is alive as there is for Jesus' resurrection. There is far more evidence for the miracles of Sri Sathya Baba than for those you attribute to Jesus.

  Well, whatever, cofty. But this is what is making it completely beside the point. It's like arguing with a pacifist about whether the war with Iraq was right or wrong: he thinks all wars are wrong, so you can't have a discussion. That's what you are doing here: you figure all of Christianity is wrong and, therefore, all the doctrines associated with it are also wrong. But that's not this discussion.
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  64

  Transubstantiation?

  by leavingwt in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does anyone here accept the doctrine of transubstantiation?

  if so, please elaborate.

  theology: the changing of the elements of the bread and wine, when they are consecrated in the eucharist, into the body and blood of christ (a doctrine of the roman catholic church).

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  Sulla

  Actually, no, cofty. I'm simply pointing out that your comaprison is not valid, since we don't suppose Elvis was any of the things the Jesus is. Since claims to his divinity are antecedent to concepts like transubstantiation, a criticism like yours is simply a non sequitur.
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  64

  Transubstantiation?

  by leavingwt in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does anyone here accept the doctrine of transubstantiation?

  if so, please elaborate.

  theology: the changing of the elements of the bread and wine, when they are consecrated in the eucharist, into the body and blood of christ (a doctrine of the roman catholic church).

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  Sulla

  If somebody claimed that by saying the correct incantations their morning toast and orange juice turned into the actual flesh and blood of Elvis Presley we would not hesitate to judge their sanity.

  Had Elvis been raised from the dead in a way to preclude his ever dying again, had he dispensed the Paraclete to aid his Church, and had he died for our sins, perhaps we would view things differently.

  I don't accept it was the practice of early Christianity. Early Christianity is a relative term.

  Well, the early 2nd century should count as plenty early, even in your book, Band.
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  64

  Transubstantiation?

  by leavingwt in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does anyone here accept the doctrine of transubstantiation?

  if so, please elaborate.

  theology: the changing of the elements of the bread and wine, when they are consecrated in the eucharist, into the body and blood of christ (a doctrine of the roman catholic church).

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  Sulla

  Chapter 6, tec. The oldest tradition is that St. John taught St. Polycarp and St. Ignatius and that Ignatius was one of the little children about whom Jesus said we must be like in order to gain the kingdom. This is most particularly shown in his letter to the church at Smyrna. It isn't very long, so you can see for yourself.

  As for what it tastes like, that is the distinction between essences and appearances that Aquinas goes into great philosophical lengths to discuss.